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Was the destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor necessary?

Author
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#1 - 2016-06-01 05:06:34 UTC
Greetings, pilots!

Today I wold like to discuss the demolition of Nouvelle Rouvenor, performed by culture preservation society known as Templis Dragonaurs almost 200 years ago. Nouvelle Rouvenor was an underwater city established by gallenteans on Caldari Prime. Some people claim that sabotage of this city has caused gallente to bombard the entire Caldari Prime and has started the war. But lets get into the history and analyze events happened before and after the attack, and try to answer the question if destruction of this city was necessary.

1. Did it start the war?
This is a common misconception. The war began way earlier. After the Gallente Federation rejected Caldari people right to have voice in their own management of their own colonies, our ancestors decided to leave the Federation and live as they seem fit themselves, not by Federal, but by their own, Caldari laws. Gallente, who coerced Caldari earlier to join their Federation by economical pressure now were put before the fact the Caldari neither want nor will live by their laws. Feeling the power slipping out from them, gallente then went open with their intentions and tried to coerce Caldari by force to stay under gallenten oppression. They went war on us and blockaded Caldari Prime, gripping it hard with their warships. Both Caldari and Gallente alike on Caldari Prime became victims of Federal oppression. Before the Nouvelle Rouvenor was demolished its inhabitants were in same conditions Caldari in surface cities. Federal fascist with their war made suffer everyone on the planet, and their actions made quite a lot of people desperate.

2. Did it cause the bombardment of Caldari Prime?
It is rather usual point of view that Caldari Prime was bombarded because a couple of desperate peoples blew up Nouvelle Rouvenor. But lets look what we already know about gallente. They are ruthless in their inhumane tactics and they are able to genocide people, even disregarding losses of their own kin. Take for example Noir's attack on Ishukone station in Malkalen. Or the recent operation Highlander. Gallente claimed that they did it to prevent titan shooting at Caldari Prime. But if it was really the case and the Shiigeru would shoot at Caldari Prime, it would do it as a reply to gallente attack. This leads to conclusion, if gallente believed the titan would indeed shoot doomsday on Caldari Prime they have attacked to provoke it to use doomsday on the planet, provided what they claim is true. Otherwise their attack had no sense, because to prevent it from shooting doomsday they shouldn't have attacked at all.

Here we can see horrendous disdain to human lives from gallente side. But also we should note their propaganda, trying to hide and cover what they do with their usual rhetorics about freedoms and so called 'rights', that they violate themselves every time. Obviously they need this propaganda basically for themselves, because their population opinion make their elected clowns hold their positions. And bombardment of Caldari Prime with gallente city underwater could easily shatter the dome with charges detonating above. When Templis Dragonaurs destroyed the city themselves, they simply opened the way for gallente to bombard the planet without worrying to make up excuses about blowing up the city themselves, so they could do it without need of wasting millions on propaganda: there were mostly Caldari left on the planet, and obviously gallente citizens wouldn't care about their lives as much as they would about other gallente.

But would these fascist bombard Caldari Prime even if Nouvelle Rouvenor wasn't destroyed? In my opinion, they would.

3. Was it an act of desperation or terror military action?
I think I'll start with the latter. Caldari military doctrine lacks terror operations, and this is quite understandable: we are professionals, and terror is just a poor men war. Terror does not promote success of the campaign and there are no evidences from the history that it has ever succeded. Even when the war has started, the operation of destruction of Nouvelle Rouvenor wasn't performed by Caldari military either. As for being just an act of desperation, this is very easy and possible explanation, taking into account how all peoples on Caldari Prime were oppressed by Gallentean fascism. However, there is one particular thing about who exactly have committed the demolition of Nouvelle Rouvenor. It were neither Caldari servicemen, nor suffered civilians. It were members of a culture preservance society. So, maybe there was something more than just desperation and military (including terror) operation?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#2 - 2016-06-01 05:07:17 UTC
4. Gallente cultural invasion.
Since the first contact between Gallente and Caldari people Gallente were trying to promote and infest Caldari Prime with their culture instead of trying to understand ours. It is enough to realize their intention if you just look at the name of their expedition on Caldari Prime: it was called the CDS - Cultural Deliverance Society. What is worse, what gallente were calling culture was completely incompatible with our own, their customs and habits were highly amoral and inefficient. While we accepted some of their technological advances, we simply couldn't accept their deprived way of life, even while they were trying to push it into us hard. While it was just an expedition, it could be simply ignored, but with development of FTL communication the situation became way worse when gallente began to advocate their amoral way of life through media propaganda. I think it became quite obvious at that point that Caldari are resistant even to propaganda and brainwashing, and their FTL communication were only making our people more angry. At that point also Gallente started using different approach - physical replacement of Caldari culture by gallente by implanting of Gallente cultural enclaves. The largest of this enclaves was the Nouvelle Rouvenor - the whole underwater gallente city.

We can see also further gallente attempts at replacing Caldari culture. One of the most obvious was repopulation of Caldari Prime by gallente peoples after we have evacuated the planet. We can find examples even in our time. The most notable, that gallenteans were trying to hide (but, luckily for us the information about this has leaked into media both in the State and Federation), is genocide of Caldari colonies in Black Rise and replacement of colonists with gallente citizens. Even after we liberate them from gallente occupation and return control over colonies, they still remain culturally gallentean.

And of course most vivid cultural attack on Caldari from Gallente were events that has started the conflict again: racial attacks of gallente on Caldari Prime. Of course, there were a lot of victims of Caldari blood, and beating of Caldari protesters against gallente racism, but we should look carefully of what were exact targets of these gallentean racists. Again, luckily for us and historicians, these events were depicted in media in quite a lot of details. I hope we all remember gallente writings to "Exterminate Caldari", but what was way more noticeable, that they were defacing and destroying Caldari cultural and historical artefacts on Caldari Prime.

5. Conclusion.
Gallente, who have started the war against Caldari 200 years ago and recently started it again 7 years ago were trying not just to conquer and dominate us, but also to destroy our culture and replace it with their own. They have declared Caldari culture preservance society 'Templis Dragonaurs' as terrorists only for their attempt to fight off gallente cultural invasion and have coerced Caldari corporations to accept this society as 'terrorists' in order to sign the peace treaty. Returning back to the original question of the discussion, my answer would be: yes. The demolition of the Nouvelle Rouvenor was necessary, it was an invasion and it was repelled. But looking back into the history we shall also learn lessons and look into future, becasue now we still have two issues that need to be solved: Templis Dragonaurs and Caldari Prime.

First, Templis Dragonaurs should not be considered as terrorists anymore, becasue demolition of Nouvelle Rouvenor wasn't just a terror attack, besides that even if we accept gallentean propaganda and name it as a 'terror', TD hasn't committed terror acts since. Everyone who were involved in demolition of Nouvelle Rouvenor are long dead: it happened more than 200 years ago, thus not a single member of TD were involved in this operation.

And second, there are still a lot of Gallente cultural enclaves on Caldari Prime. They are spreading like a cancer, forcing out healthy Caldari culture with gallentean amorality and indecency. And it is our duties to remove them, to cleanse them and free Caldari Prime from this filth.

We must do what we have to do.
Remove Gallente.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-06-01 05:19:09 UTC
Can you go back wherever you've been hiding the past couple of weeks?

And no.
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#4 - 2016-06-01 05:59:50 UTC
No.

What's more, the CEP has maintained that the Templis Dragonaur are a terrorist organization, even during Heth-guri's reign. As a loyal Caldari officer, you of course accept the CEP's ruling on this, right, Kim?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Karina Ivanovich
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-06-01 06:19:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Karina Ivanovich
Makoto Priano wrote:
No.

What's more, the CEP has maintained that the Templis Dragonaur are a terrorist organization, even during Heth-guri's reign. As a loyal Caldari officer, you of course accept the CEP's ruling on this, right, Kim?


Loyalty to the State does not equate to agreeing with everything they say. You should be aware that every State Officer, and every citizen, is both entitled and encouraged to have their own opinion. We follow orders. But that does not mean we are mindless peons to an unfeeling Lord. We are dedicated to upholding the Ideals of the State.

So while the CEP has stated such, we are not required to agree. Once you are forced to believe whatever you read in the media or the party line you become trapped in the confines of a prison built by your own stupidity. Take the Galente Federation for example. Their citizens are more worried about entertainment and what the media spoon feeds then than about what is truly going on.

Some call me insane. If the universe is sane, then I embrace that label.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#6 - 2016-06-01 07:29:24 UTC
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
No.

What's more, the CEP has maintained that the Templis Dragonaur are a terrorist organization, even during Heth-guri's reign. As a loyal Caldari officer, you of course accept the CEP's ruling on this, right, Kim?


Loyalty to the State does not equate to agreeing with everything they say. You should be aware that every State Officer, and every citizen, is both entitled and encouraged to have their own oppinion. We follow orders. But that does not mean we are mindless peons to an unfeeling Lord. We are dedicated to upholding the Ideals of the State.

So while the CEP has stated such, we are not required to agree. Once you are forced to believe whatever you read in the media or only follow the party line you become traded 2ithing the confines of a prison built by your own stupidity. Take the Galente Federation for example. Their citizens are more worried about entertainment and what the media spoon feeds then than about what is truly going on.

Ms. Ivanovich, first of all I'd like to point out that Makoto shall not be considered as Caldari anymore. She is a well known liar, who have lost her honor when she cowardly denied to answer for her lies. Ref.: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=381560

Second, I'd like to point on on similarities between Makoto and Nick Bete's answers, as being just "No"-s.

And of course I agree that every citizen shall have their own opinion. We aren't brainwashed gallenteans, who shall praise freedom absent-mindedly, we can agree and disagree with anything superiors will say, we just have to follow orders and do our duty. (Which Makoto obviously doesn't do as well.)

By calling to admit Templis Dragonaurs not being terrorists I did not violate any of orders, neither from CEP or any other of my superiors.

Besides that, after the dissolution of CPD we don't have a government per se. The CEP hasn't replaced it with their own power and remained as what it was earlier - a consultative organ between megacorporations that establishes foreign policies. I am neither a megacorp CEO nor member of CEP corporation to follow any of their orders. If I will be a conflicting order from the Caldari Navy or State Protectorate, obviously I will execute orders given to me by CN or STPRO, but not CEP.

Real government power in the State belongs to a megacorporation which citizen you are.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Stitcher
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#7 - 2016-06-01 08:00:57 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
We aren't brainwashed gallenteans, who shall praise freedom absent-mindedly, we can agree and disagree with anything superiors will say.


Quite right. We have that freedom. Roll

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Anataine Deva
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-06-01 08:21:02 UTC
Dear Ms Kim,

I really wish we will meet each other one day in person, so I can do with you what some Gallente already should have done with you. Giving you a hug, a smile and then leaving you there in peace.

Diana Kim wrote:
But lets look what we already know about gallente. They are ruthless in their inhumane tactics and they are able to genocide people, even disregarding losses of their own kin.
....
We must do what we have to do.
Remove Gallente.
It's sad to guess the shadows that darken your heart. To see your way of spreading hate, always looking for innocent Caldari to draw them with you down on your dark path.

I can't say what really happened 200 or even 7 years ago. I wasn't there and I don't care. "The first casualty of War is Truth." You are fighting right now a war what doesn't make your accusations reliable.

As a human I know that condemning children for the actions of their ancestors is wrong. Condemning a nation because of the actions of individuals is wrong.

As a Gallente I like the Caldari, live with that.

Give The BIG Lottery a try (it's conform with the EULA) and me your Fedos!

Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#9 - 2016-06-01 10:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaret Victorian
Karina Ivanovich wrote:
You should be aware that every State Officer, and every citizen, is both entitled and encouraged to have their own opinion. We follow orders.

Right. At least some small part of what you say is true.
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#10 - 2016-06-01 10:23:52 UTC
Stitcher, why do you bring in chaos? I never said anything about chaos. We don't have that chaos or any other chaos. And I wasn't discussing chaos here. If you want to discuss chaos, maybe start another discussion?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#11 - 2016-06-01 10:41:09 UTC
Anataine Deva wrote:

I can't say what really happened 200 or even 7 years ago. I wasn't there and I don't care. "The first casualty of War is Truth." You are fighting right now a war what doesn't make your accusations reliable.

As a human I know that condemning children for the actions of their ancestors is wrong. Condemning a nation because of the actions of individuals is wrong.

Maybe I would agree with you if you said it before the war has started right after I had quite shocking personal interaction with gallente who opened my eyes on them and made me stopped thinking about them as of normal people.

But since then I have seen quite a lot. Malkalen, Highlander, Caldari Prime racism and apartheid, genocide of Caldari colonists...

You know, I don't actually condemn a nation anymore because of the actions of some individuals, but because of their policies and because of what they are doing currently at the same moment as we speak.

I would like to advise you to take a ship with a probe scanner and head towards Black Rise (any high security system in the region will do). Find a gallente prison facility, infiltrate it, rescue any of Caldari captives, treat them and see what official Federal staff is doing to them.

After you do this, I'll gladly meet you in person to discuss what you have seen.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Anataine Deva
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-06-01 12:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Anataine Deva
Diana Kim wrote:
You know, I don't actually condemn a nation anymore because of the actions of some individuals, but because of their policies and because of what they are doing currently at the same moment as we speak.
Then support a peace process between our both nations as I do. Calling to a war that none of us can win is madness. If a person like you would show the people that change is possible, it might actually convince others to lay down their arms too.

Diana Kim wrote:
I would like to advise you to take a ship with a probe scanner and head towards Black Rise (any high security system in the region will do). Find a gallente prison facility, infiltrate it, rescue any of Caldari captives, treat them and see what official Federal staff is doing to them.
I'm sure if you would do the same with a Caldari prison you would see exactly the same as I would.

It's in the nature of war that it brings alive what under normal circumstances hides deep within each of us. Neither Caldari nor Gallente are any different in this regard.

Fathers raping young women, old enough to be their daughters. Young men killing old women who could be their grandmothers... I spare you more details, you know them already. It's understandable that someone who witnessed such horrors is losing his faith and becomes what he despised.

In such moments the weak separate from the strong. In those who use others atrocities as excuse to commit their own and those who actually do something to stop that soul eating beast. Despite personal losses or sensitivities.


And back to your initial question: No

Give The BIG Lottery a try (it's conform with the EULA) and me your Fedos!

Stitcher
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#13 - 2016-06-01 12:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Diana Kim wrote:
Stitcher, why do you bring in chaos? I never said anything about chaos. We don't have that chaos or any other chaos. And I wasn't discussing chaos here. If you want to discuss chaos, maybe start another discussion?


Okay, 1. - that pun was awful.

2. - there's no POINT in punning on a forum that automatically translates between several hundred different languages because only the handful of people who speak the same dialect as you will even get it, and

3. - you're not being clever, you're being facetious.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Heiian Conglomerate
#14 - 2016-06-01 12:51:20 UTC
On a technicality you are discussing an event that caused chaos to the people who lived there....
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Black Advent
#15 - 2016-06-01 13:39:55 UTC
Whilst I can understand your constant need for attention (and thus perceived relevance) how about you post something that isn't a direct copy-paste from the RUTV galnet domains with some change in nouns?

Scrub.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Heiian Conglomerate
#16 - 2016-06-01 15:21:04 UTC
Oh, good, she's back. The echoes from her last visit were beginning to fade. Glad she's here to revive them.... < /sarcasm >


Also, no Nouvelle Rouvenor's destruction was not necessary.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Heiian Conglomerate
#17 - 2016-06-01 15:25:43 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
But lets look what we already know about gallente. They are ruthless in their inhumane tactics and they are able to genocide people, even disregarding losses of their own kin. Take for example Noir's attack on Ishukone station in Malkalen. Or the recent operation Highlander.

To date the Gallente have committed 0 acts of Genocide against the Caldari. For proof I offer the fact that the Caldari people are still around... And even have their own nation.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Stitcher
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#18 - 2016-06-01 16:08:45 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
To date the Gallente have committed 0 acts of Genocide against the Caldari. For proof I offer the fact that the Caldari people are still around... And even have their own nation.


Well.... zero successful acts of genocide.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#19 - 2016-06-01 16:42:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Makoto Priano
Pilots;

You'll notice I use the term 'accept,' rather than 'agree.' One can accept a thing without agreeing with it. As for dissent, well, that's a discussion for another day, as social mores will vary from corporation to corporation.

As for acceptance, let me put forward a situation, Kim. The CEP has declared the Templis Dragonaur to be a terrorist group. The Caldari Navy has a standing order to engage terrorist groups. You encounter a Templis Dragonaur attacking a defenseless Gallente civilian convoy, and are the only force able to come to the aid of the civilians. Do you engage the Templis Dragonaur?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#20 - 2016-06-01 17:09:07 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Pilots;

You'll notice I use the term 'accept,' rather than 'agree.' One can accept a thing without agreeing with it. As for dissent, well, that's a discussion for another day, as social mores will vary from corporation to corporation.

As for acceptance, let me put forward a situation, Kim. The CEP has declared the Templis Dragonaur to be a terrorist group. The Caldari Navy has a standing order to engage terrorist groups. You encounter a Templis Dragonaur attacking a defenseless Gallente civilian convoy, and are the only force able to come to the aid of the civilians. Do you engage the Templis Dragonaur?

I will engage Templis Dragonaurs vessel only if I will receive direct order from a fleet commander or superior Protectorate or Navy officer to commence the attack.

However, the cituation that I will find myself in the area of operation of TD by accident is highly unlikely, and there's another option - that I was sent there to intercept a group. In that case I will engage TD vessels as well, but on condition that the targets will be specified explicitly (again, by a superior officer who will send me into the area), i.e. will be named as Templis Dragonaurs vessels, and not 'terrorist' or something like that.

And of course, in that case only after they finish their job.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

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