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Sojourn

Author
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#481 - 2016-05-29 17:51:09 UTC
Lunarisse Aspenstar wrote:
Balled Fist? Slave Collar? News to me. Me thinks some other people are looking at the world through jaundiced, and perhaps rather cracked, glasses.

Ar e we reading the same thread and talking about the same corporation Aria's been a valued and contributing member of in accordance with her choices and growth as a person?

I was struck and moved by her decision to take the personal risk at meeting nauplius to save the last group of survivors. The old aria would never have done that I fear. A job well done. I hope to continue reading about your journey.





I merely said an old saying I remembered from my childhood that seemed to fit. Whether you really are doing such a thing whether physically or metaphorically, well....am I not to trust what my eyes have seen? Placing faith in such a thing as a good intention is rather hard when physical evidence points to the contrary.

I guess I'll ask since rather making insinuations which obviously were seen in a more hostile intent than intended, were her decisions made from an offer? How long was it even thought about (a "long time" is rather vague is it not?)? Whether she has done good work or not I can't comment though yes I'll fully agree with you based on what I know about, though its rather pointless to my points from before. A Valklear does many great things on the battlefield that doesn't change the fact they're a murderer.

Pretty sure my main points were black and white in my last post so I won't waste anyone's time reiterating them.
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#482 - 2016-05-29 21:15:18 UTC
If Imperials aren't attempting to convince people they come into contact with that the Imperial way is superior then they are seriously failing in their duty as Imperials.

That being said.

Conflicts between capsuleers are always going to be resolved either by changing the views of your opponents or by eroding their morale to the point that they don't resist you. So it would be impossible to triumph over proponents of the Imperial way without, ultimately, convincing them that they are wrong in following it.

Trying to do that is hazardous, because to do so you have to make yourself vulnerable to having your own views changed.

As I understand it Captain Jenneth is seeking to be a good guest and, whilst doing so, observe and learn. She isn't attempting to influence.

I would suggest that semi regular visits to non-Imperial enclaves within the Empire and occasional trips outside it would be useful in maintaining a proper sense of perspective and lessen the risk of utterly going native. That said I don't know how much of the captain's time is spent in direct service to her current corporation.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#483 - 2016-05-29 23:55:05 UTC
I could say alot about the accusations of manipulation and so forth that are brought up here. But I won't. Her decisions are not mine to make, nor are they to be made by those critics. Suffice to say that I welcome her, respect her choice - just as I did previosuly and even in cases where I didn't agree with her - and take her at her word:

"In the Empire I've found things that I needed, things that seem to be rare among our kind: moderation, kindness, decency-- the willingness, even, to take a wounded Falcon, and try to help her heal, instead of just using me."

That's all I need to do.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#484 - 2016-05-30 17:13:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Forty-Two: Weak, in Review

This has been coming for a while, I guess. It's a natural method of either scaring me off or discrediting me: make me out to be the target, the victim, of a campaign of manipulation meant to make me a tool of Empire-- a slave, even if I never wear a collar.

It's not like it's without basis, either. The Amarr, by and large, genuinely believe in the objective truth of their beliefs, and their duty to spread those beliefs to others. To some, even some Caldari, this probably looks like a memetic contagion, spreading aggressively across the world.

It's a hard one for SFRIM pilots, themselves, to answer. There's no method of denying it that can't be countered with a "See? You're proving my point!" It's harder still because its truth boils down to perspective.

Emerita Mithra tells me her thoughts; I respond with mine. Is this manipulation? ... Of course: all communication is. It's the process of making thoughts and concepts appear in somebody's mind. She's manipulating my thoughts; I'm manipulating hers.

I think she's a little stubborn, though. I think I'm a little stubborn, too.

From some angles, I should be easy prey for such a thing. I'm an amnesiac with a somewhat fragile and easily-influenced sense of self. Rather than remaining stubbornly unchanged, come what may, I tend to absorb the perspectives of the people around me.

I'm also pretty easy to hurt. A well-placed taunt isn't something I'm good at ignoring. One of those is a lot of what sent me to PY-RE: wounded pride.

I might be getting less vulnerable to this as time goes on. I hope so. I think that might be why I even care about this accusation, though. There's a thread in this narrative that pricks at my pride (it's probably supposed to): the notion that I'm a mark, a patsy. A victim. Prey.

Powerless. Weak.

So-- I guess I'm a cautionary tale, now. "Don't visit the Empire; you'll fall in love with someone, you'll meet another person you really admire, and you'll end up wanting to stay!"

Oh, wait. I'm being manipulated, so: "Don't visit the Empire; they'll make you fall in love with someone, you'll meet another person who's pretending to be really admirable, and you'll be lost forever as a slave to darkness!"

(Can you tell I resent this narrative just a bit?)

Here's what I know:

The Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque is dedicated, in part, yes, to spreading the Amarrian faith in the spirit of the Pax Amarria. This means that the method of conversion is reasoned persuasion (as practiced, yes, by Emerita Mithra) rather than the sword. (Isn't how the rest of us would normally prefer them to pursue the Reclaiming? Trying to persuade us instead of turning up with slave collars and laser rifles?) Of course I'm a target.

That is, in the very long term, because I'm also (here's where the pride comes in) a (somewhat) formally-trained Achur monk of the spiritually-skeptical Shuijing sect, which differs with the Amarrian faith on virtually every point starting with the very nature of reality itself. I'm literally someone from a different planet, and my beliefs are maybe a little bit entrenched.

I'm also permanently a curious critical thinker whose primary focus when looking at a society is its utility as a home for human beings. I'm not an enemy of the Empire, and I don't think I have to be-- but not even an atheist is likely to be as hard to convert.

I don't care for great causes. I'm loyal, however, by my own choice and at my own initiative, Deitra, to certain specific people. This has less to do with the Empire, and more to do with who they are as people, and who I wish to be. These people are loyal to the Empire, so-- so am I.

There was a time when I thought I was okay with exploring the dark, so long as I understood what I was doing. I think that act twisted me up more than anything I've done before or since, and I still haven't fully recovered. Maybe I never will.

If the light's been going out of my eyes ... that might be why. I'm not okay.

... but I'm better than I might have been. And that's because I'm here.

I apologize for rambling. It's a little hard to respond very coherently to such a broad perception, but....

If friendship, love, kindness, patience, warmth, and decency are a trap-- I guess maybe I'm okay with falling into it.
Arnulf Ogunkoya
Clan Ogunkoya
Electus Matari
#485 - 2016-05-30 18:11:03 UTC
Captain Jenneth I don't think you are weak. I don't think your direct associates in SFRIM are evil. Come to that I doubt many Imperial loyalists are evil as such. They just serve the society and culture that most of them have been raised to trust and respect. That's what I would hold to be evil.

My problems with that society and culture come from what it has done to others in the past. And what some influential members of it would have it continue to do. And what it continues to do to billions of people inside the empire. Sometimes with only the most cursory effort at reclamation of the souls involved.

Regards, Arnulf Ogunkoya.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#486 - 2016-05-31 02:26:28 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

So-- I guess I'm a cautionary tale, now. "Don't visit the Empire; you'll fall in love with someone, you'll meet another person you really admire, and you'll end up wanting to stay!"

Oh, wait. I'm being manipulated, so: "Don't visit the Empire; they'll make you fall in love with someone, you'll meet another person who's pretending to be really admirable, and you'll be lost forever as a slave to darkness!"



Lady, you can go stay with a Vherokhior caravan and travel with them through the Sobaki Desert and the Imperials will use a similar rhetoric back at you. You go and stay with a specialty coffee shop owner who had seen and learnt too many things in Crystal Boulevard you hear the same thing from the Caldari. If you stay with the Caldari the Feds will, okay, they don't give a damn about that.

My point is don't listen to them. You figure out what you want to do, who you choose to be your mentor and move on with your life. Any choice you make, someone somewhere is going to make it political because heck if I know. If you decide to base your opinions and life choices on someone who is trying to drag politics into something or other for whatever reason, you will end up playing an endlessly frustrating game of knocking heads with other very hard-headed individuals who are utterly convinced that they can't be wrong in any way. You have much better things to do than play that game.

Like giving out life-changing hugs of redemption, for example.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#487 - 2016-05-31 05:18:04 UTC
On another note, I forgot to mention. If ever you start developing doubts about yourself or who you associate with, continue that sojourn. Do everything I mentioned earlier. That Vherokhior caravan thing or that coffee house thing. Travel is a good way to gain some new perspective about things to be much better informed about your choices. THEN make your choice and stick to it until you run up into another wall.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Kalo Askold
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#488 - 2016-05-31 08:25:50 UTC
This is still happening? I know of teens that find their place and happiness quicker.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#489 - 2016-05-31 10:49:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
Kalo Askold wrote:
This is still happening? I know of teens that find their place and happiness quicker.


Much the same can be said of yourself. Between serving in various pirate affiliated lowsec organisations, a sojourn of your own to nullsecurity between stays in the Militia War, I can't tell if you're a Blooder wannabe, a common lowsec thug, a Minmatar 'freedom fighter' or a simple opportunist with a short list of standards.

I guess we all make our own paths, and as Capsuleers we're all a hell of a lot more free to be flexible where those paths take us.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#490 - 2016-05-31 23:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Utari Onzo
Speaking of lost and confused I finally read Mokk's post. What kind of nonsensicle, pseudo-intellectual clap trap is this from a man who has moved his personal goal posts more frequently then I aquire new teas.

To hear Mokk gushing about seeing the world through different eyes while he dances merrily between selling slaves and tcmc products for personal profit, rubbing up to the Kingdom before flipping over to the Cartel while all the while, Truly Trufully! He was still on our side! And now speaking of no longer being part of that same said process, I fail to even comprehend how one can try to speak from some moral highground.

Your esteemed former Lordship, you draw a heavy and long broad stroke about some people's intentions and desires while forgetting, as has been pointed out already, that the influence goes both ways. Yes, there are some that would put collars around Aria's neck, hell they'd put a collar round mine too for my father's blood. Others seek to teach and convert through direct education and others still by simple example. But in return there are a good number of the Amarr Capsuleers that have quietly observed and supported the choices made, the hard questions asked and the potentials filled, to whatever end that will be.

Regardless of all that, at every step of the way the good people of SFRIM, unlike your formerly ennobled self, have stuck by their principles through both praise and criticism, and that includes the option of leaving, with no baggage and no expectations, imparted on all members.

Aria's own journey has touched many, including my own, and while doubtless I have had some small imprint on her path I ever remain the dog watching wistfully at the flying bird. Where she ends up finally nesting, if at all, is no one's business but hers.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#491 - 2016-06-01 00:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Forgive me if this is an oversimplification, Vesper, but as I understand things you seem to have given your tentative loyalty to SFRIM (and by proxy the Empire) because they save you from the alternative of succumbing to your concept of the Dark. If that is the case, all parties in this cluster (save for whichever would use your powers of destruction to their own ends) should be very glad this is the case. This includes the Matari who have been participating in this discussion.

That said, nearly ten months after the beginning of your journey to those dangerous depths, my assumptions on your return from it have thus far been proven wrong, and I am very glad for it. I'll restate my original quarrel with you since it seems to not be relevant for the moment: I have never cared about who you associate with or why, so long as you do not fall into the pit and come back to haunt us from the void. I would have been disappointed if you had sided with the Matari in the end, but I would not have questioned your decision beyond the normal arguments I have with those who take violent measures against my homeland. As a matter of duty, not spite. If only some others here would take that approach.

I suggest to the Minmatar arguing that Vesper is somehow 'lost to the dark' whilst she calls the Empire home, look at the alternatives. For now she is a friend-of-a-friend of the Empire, yes, but she could have been a friend to no one but a small clique of capsuleers who owe loyalty to no one. Wonderful for those she chose, but quite foul for everyone else in the cluster, yourselves included. If you wish to change her mind, engage her not as someone being manipulated by us, but as someone who has found legitimate merit in our way of life, and present your own legitimate merits so that she may consider them as the capable thinker that she is.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#492 - 2016-06-01 00:21:41 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Forgive me if this is an oversimplification, Vesper, but as I understand things you seem to have given your tentative loyalty to SFRIM (and by proxy the Empire) because they save you from the alternative of succumbing to your concept of the Dark. If that is the case, all parties in this cluster (save for whichever would use your powers of destruction to their own ends) should be very glad this is the case. This includes the Matari who have been participating in this discussion.

That said, nearly ten months after the beginning of your journey to those dangerous depths, my assumptions on your return from it have thus far been proven wrong, and I am very glad for it. I'll restate my original quarrel with you since it seems to not be relevant for the moment: I have never cared about who you associate with or why, so long as you do not fall into the pit and come back to haunt us from the void. I would have been disappointed if you had sided with the Matari in the end, but I would not have questioned your decision beyond the normal arguments I have with those who take violent measures against my homeland. As a matter of duty, not spite. If only some others here would take that approach.

I suggest to the Minmatar arguing that Vesper is somehow 'lost to the dark' whilst she calls the Empire home, look at the alternatives. For now she is a friend-of-a-friend of the Empire, yes, but she could have been a friend to no one but a small clique of capsuleers who owe loyalty to no one. Wonderful for those she chose, but quite foul for everyone else in the cluster, yourselves included. If you wish to change her mind, engage her not as someone being manipulated by us, but as someone who has found legitimate merit in our way of life, and present your own legitimate merits so that she may consider them as the capable thinker that she is.

Being friends with and "going native" are two totally separate things. There are a few Amarr who i trust and consider friends, I don't drop who I was to be like them.
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#493 - 2016-06-01 00:48:00 UTC
And has Vesper dropped who she is to be like us? Has she adopted the Faith and stated her intent to reclaim the Cluster? Does she pray every holy day and quote the Scripture in local when she fleets with us?

No. She is still an unrepentant spiritual neutralist. To her, we are not the Empire destined to rule the cluster, we are the empire she happened to make friends in first.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu

Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#494 - 2016-06-01 01:01:26 UTC
Well then...... I think I can......uh...take your.....um......opinions on this for what it's worth......Ya...
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#495 - 2016-06-01 02:36:59 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well then...... I think I can......uh...take your.....um......opinions on this for what it's worth......Ya...


Ms. Vess, while Lord Newelle and I differ, ah, kind of pointedly, about my chosen course, he's mostly not wrong about how I look at it.

It's a difference that prevented him from [accepting my aid/using me] last year, and, while my younger (by a year) self kind of resented that he couldn't see his way to let me fly for him, I do understand why he couldn't.

The only area where I think he might misunderstand a little is this.

Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
... you seem to have given your tentative loyalty to SFRIM (and by proxy the Empire) ...


Emphasis mine.

You might remember, my lord, that I take promises a little bit seriously. I promised you, for the duration of my first visit, that I would shed no blood for the Empire unless it was out of true belief in the rightness of its cause; and I never broke that promise, not even when SFRIM came under attack.

Write a promise down, seal it in the blood of the signatories, and file it in a cathedral archive (which religion's kind of irrelevant, at least for my purposes), and-- well, it's not so "tentative," really?

Loyalty unto death ...

(... or one month's written notice-- which I still think is hilarious in a blood oath but does give me a way to duck out if I really do seriously change my mind.)

(I don't plan to.)

(Life's odd that way, though. I'm expecting the unexpected.)

(I still don't plan to.)

... But-- at the same time, you're precisely correct. I'm fond of SFRIM, but my strongest tie to them is through my oath to Directrix Daphiti. My connection to the Empire is personal, not political or even corporate.

... I guess, for some, that's more than close enough.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#496 - 2016-06-01 03:52:40 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well then...... I think I can......uh...take your.....um......opinions on this for what it's worth......Ya...


Ms. Vess, while Lord Newelle and I differ, ah, kind of pointedly, about my chosen course, he's mostly not wrong about how I look at it.

It's a difference that prevented him from [accepting my aid/using me] last year, and, while my younger (by a year) self kind of resented that he couldn't see his way to let me fly for him, I do understand why he couldn't.


Well, I don't feel I'm wrong in saying it seems you've changed (in your writing in this at least). I'm a little surprised to see how fractured your people are, though honestly I guess it's to be expected given due to....well every little thing that comes out becomes a ******* match. Knowing your mainly acting in support of your own Corp, why bother supporting the other factions of it who can't trust you?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#497 - 2016-06-01 06:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Deitra Vess wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Well then...... I think I can......uh...take your.....um......opinions on this for what it's worth......Ya...


Ms. Vess, while Lord Newelle and I differ, ah, kind of pointedly, about my chosen course, he's mostly not wrong about how I look at it.

It's a difference that prevented him from [accepting my aid/using me] last year, and, while my younger (by a year) self kind of resented that he couldn't see his way to let me fly for him, I do understand why he couldn't.

Well, I don't feel I'm wrong in saying it seems you've changed (in your writing in this at least).


Well-- I probably really have.

I'm not just a maybe kind of intriguing wanderer anymore. I'm trusted. I have responsibilities, now, duties to people who matter to me, and who, in turn, have duties to others.

Trust comes at the price of not speaking quite as freely as I used to. It's one reason I'm thinking of maybe bringing this project to a close: there's only so much I can say.

It's not that I'm turning Amarr-- if anything, I'm proudly Achura. My position, as Lord Shutaq correctly suggests, is closer to a mercenary hireling than a proper, loyal Amarrian subject: I'm a "sworn retainer." It can be described in a lot of ways, and "servant" is one, but not exactly the kind you have setting out the silverware; more the sort you have write your letters (on one hand) or turn loose to hunt your enemies (on the other). It's an intersection of Amarrian and Caldari culture, a situation the Directrix and I are both comfortable with.

I'm still an outsider, here. I think I always will be, but I have duties, and telling stories? ... that's not one of them. Not as a travel writer, anyway.

Quote:
I'm a little surprised to see how fractured your people are, though honestly I guess it's to be expected given due to....well every little thing that comes out becomes a ******* match. Knowing your mainly acting in support of your own Corp, why bother supporting the other factions of it who can't trust you?


... Fractured?

Um. Well-- it's not like we're at daggers drawn or anything. SFRIM and PIE are allies-- close allies, even. To a high degree, that's probably true of most Imperial organizations. After all, they all work towards common ends, even if they disagree (sometimes strongly) about the details.

If you're thinking particularly of the strain between myself and Lord Newelle, the problem's partly cultural. He flies very much by his sense of what a proper warrior is: service to a cause greater than one's self. I fly by a completely different set of cultural rules, though, which, not very comfortingly, I'm sure, for Lord Newelle, is probably about the same set Desiderya flies by. I don't need any great cause. If it is my proper role to fight, I will fight.

... except, while that's true, I also don't like what that fact threatens to make of me. Lord Newelle and I see my situation similarly, that way. It's even possible, in hindsight, that his influence might have been a reason I cared when I noticed myself changing, growing colder and darker, and more uncaring. So-- I might owe him a debt, that way.

Our differences shouldn't really be taken to reflect any significant strain between our corporations, or even, necessarily, ourselves. I've flown with Lord Newelle, and he might have concerns about me, but he does accept my help. Even if I'm not personally loyal to his cause, even if he sort of sees me as a Falcon covered in blood and soot, he trusts the person whose glove I alight on, who holds my jesses. And he knows what a promise is to me.

I aid him because someone I swore loyalty to asked me to. There are nuances at play, but, even so, that's the only reason I need.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#498 - 2016-06-01 13:02:03 UTC
Honestly I don't think I used the correct word to describe what I meant. Either way you got the question i was asking and answered it. That makes sense, thanks for the answer.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#499 - 2016-06-01 14:10:31 UTC
Utari Onzo wrote:
Speaking of lost and confused I finally read Mokk's post. What kind of nonsensicle, pseudo-intellectual clap trap is this from a man who has moved his personal goal posts more frequently then I aquire new teas.

To hear Mokk gushing about seeing the world through different eyes while he dances merrily between selling slaves and tcmc products for personal profit, rubbing up to the Kingdom before flipping over to the Cartel while all the while, Truly Trufully! He was still on our side! And now speaking of no longer being part of that same said process, I fail to even comprehend how one can try to speak from some moral highground.

Your esteemed former Lordship, you draw a heavy and long broad stroke about some people's intentions and desires while forgetting, as has been pointed out already, that the influence goes both ways. Yes, there are some that would put collars around Aria's neck, hell they'd put a collar round mine too for my father's blood. Others seek to teach and convert through direct education and others still by simple example. But in return there are a good number of the Amarr Capsuleers that have quietly observed and supported the choices made, the hard questions asked and the potentials filled, to whatever end that will be.

Regardless of all that, at every step of the way the good people of SFRIM, unlike your formerly ennobled self, have stuck by their principles through both praise and criticism, and that includes the option of leaving, with no baggage and no expectations, imparted on all members.

Aria's own journey has touched many, including my own, and while doubtless I have had some small imprint on her path I ever remain the dog watching wistfully at the flying bird. Where she ends up finally nesting, if at all, is no one's business but hers.




I was going to address this fully, but then i remembered that the opinions of a Gallente commoner don't really matter.

I should note however, that Amarr and the Kingdom often utilize our services when they want something nasty done to the Republic, so you can spare us any further drivel concerning the Empire's "principles."

My words are and were for Aria the Angel, not a gilded Fedo with delusions of grandeur.

Les anges...ne sont jamais loin.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#500 - 2016-06-01 14:18:40 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:


I was going to address this fully, but then i remembered that the opinions of a Gallente commoner don't really matter.




I think Mr. Onzo was half-Caldari and True-Amarr? That.. amazing chin!