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The bounty system.

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Tisiphone Dira
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-05-19 08:54:06 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Actually that was a good idea in that the person applying the bounty has the right to assign it to a group or different people.


abusable, the bounty payoff can be assigned to the alt corp. of the person applying the bounty, what now.


If you put a bounty on say code and then assign it to be collected by goons, you're an idiot. That's the point, you CAN be scammed, up to you as the angry bountyer to set it to someone respectable and for them to not then let in spais.

There once was a ganker named tisi

A stunningly beautiful missy

To gank a gross miner

There is nothing finer, cept when they get all pissy
Imalia Bloodlines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2016-05-19 09:23:36 UTC
How about this:

Implement system similar to FW. Not everyone can become a bounty hunter. Only dedicated players who actually have to fulfill some kind of prerequisites, like be active in pvp or something like that. Then we can increase payout to 100% and make it worth it and not worry about alt collecting all bounty.

As far as HS goes, implement the same vulnerability system known so far. Make it so that you are vulnerable for 1-2 hours during every day, randomly to make it more viable in HS as long as theres bounty on your head. Now we have bounty system that actually impacts the game and matters.
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#23 - 2016-05-19 13:51:19 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The current bounty system is about as good as we're going to get until CCP care to take the time to integrate bounty hunting into the contract system (or some similar mechanism).

If I can issue a bounty contract on a player (or corp, or alliance) to a specific corp/player/alliance, then I have at least some agency over who can collect. Sure, corps and alliances can be infiltrated, but that takes some work, and if there are multiple competing outfits, probably isn't ISK efffective.

CCP could structure bounty contracts something like this:

They can be issued against specific individuals.
They can be issued against specific corporations
They can be issued against specific alliances

Any destroyed implants, hulls, items or structures belonging to the target counts for the bounty contract.



They can be issued by individuals or corporations
They can set to have the following acceptance parameters:

1) Private: the contract has been issued to a specific individual character. Only that character can collect bounty from the contract.
2) Corp: the contract has been issued to a specific corporation. Only members of that corp can collect bounty from the contract.
3) Alliance: the contract has been issued to a specific alliance. Only members of that alliance can collect bounty from the contract.
4) Coalition: the contract has been issed as an open contract. Only individual characters with a standing set by the issuer to equal or greater than the required level can collect bounty from the contract.
5) Open: anyone can collect bounty from the contract.


As observed several times in this thread alone, restricting who can collect the bounty is the key to the issue. If there's no way to stop anyone from collecting it, then the bounty has to be limited to irreducable loss, the way it is now. But fully open bounties can be fun, and they have their place in the scheme of things, so leave them in as an option.

Having decided who gets the contract, the issuer then sets the bounty conditions:

0-100% of destroyed implant value
0-100% of uninsured hull value
0-100% of insured hull value
0-100% of destroyed item value
0-100% of dropped item value
0-100% of destroyed structure value

This allows bounty issuers a fairly straightforward method to decide who the contract is aimed at, and also enables fine granularity of reward conditions to incite specific results.

So for example, if all I care about is paying bounty hunters to destroy pods because I'm fighting a group like Snuff* who all use HG slaves, I might set the implant value to a high percentage, the hull values low, and destroyed/dropped modules to 0 - I don't care if the hunters are spending their time blowing up shuttles and t1 haulers, as long as they're popping the pods.

Alternatively, if I want them to target Snuff's capital ships, I could set a high rate on hull values.

Or if I just want Snuff's staging towers killed, then I put a high value on structures and low or zero on everything else.

If I'm the IWI guy and I want goons dead and damb the cost, I could just set them all to 100%. And so on.

Because of the different bounty conditions, contracts can be tailored towards specific groups and even drive specific playstyles.




*No Snuff members were harmed in the making of this post.




I liked some of this. The contract assignment seems good and but I don't like the complexity of the payment. For me the reason why the bounty system does not work OS because it's just not financially worth it. Some good suggestions though.
Trace Kel'le
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-05-19 14:15:39 UTC
How about a means of cancelling a bounty? If I get ganked and the ganker feels bad decides to pay me off (it happens). I want to be able to cancel the bounty.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#25 - 2016-05-19 16:28:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The current bounty system is about as good as we're going to get...
As good as we're going to get, in my opinion, is to remove it completely. CCP has no place in this. Let it be player driven.

A corp puts out a player bounty and pays out when it's completed. Leave CCP to take care of the NPC stuff and leave the player interactions where they belong.

With the players.

Mr Epeen Cool
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#26 - 2016-05-19 17:06:05 UTC
Trace Kel'le wrote:
How about a means of cancelling a bounty? If I get ganked and the ganker feels bad decides to pay me off (it happens). I want to be able to cancel the bounty.



That's a really good point. There should be this facility in my view.
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#27 - 2016-05-19 17:11:34 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The current bounty system is about as good as we're going to get...
As good as we're going to get, in my opinion, is to remove it completely. CCP has no place in this. Let it be player driven.

A corp puts out a player bounty and pays out when it's completed. Leave CCP to take care of the NPC stuff and leave the player interactions where they belong.

With the players.

Mr Epeen Cool


There is always room for improvements. Also there is so much potential for the career as a bounty hunter. I was reading eve source and read about the career of a bounty hunter. Ccp need to know when something needs tweaking.
Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
AddictClan
#28 - 2016-05-19 21:04:02 UTC
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
As somebody who has amassed at least 1b in bounty, I'm an expert on this. Here's how to fix the system:

Have the ability to assign the bounty to particular groups or individuals for them to collect, like kill-rights currently have, and let the payout be 100% (of killvalue, or of bounty) instead of the current 20% of KM value.

This fixes the problem of it being no incentive at the moment, and also ALLOWS for clever exploitation and scamming without it being the epidemic that comes with 100% payout available to everybody which just results in the bountied person killing themselves with an alt to collect all the bounty isk.

It would make it a real bounty system that can be set as high as the angry miner wants, and then if I want to collect it myself I have to infiltrate whoever they set it to be available too, or collude with them...

See how it would make for a fun and useful system that CAN be scammed, but not so easily scammed that it would be rampant or not worth bountying? Useful but fallible, that's what ccp should be aiming for with everything like this.

oooh, I like this idea, right now player bounties are a bit of a joke

though in theory there's nothing currently stopping someone from hiring a person or group to go kill someone. Hiring mercenaries to wardec someone is one example of this.
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#29 - 2016-05-20 02:36:42 UTC
Neadayan Drakhon wrote:
Tisiphone Dira wrote:
As somebody who has amassed at least 1b in bounty, I'm an expert on this. Here's how to fix the system:

Have the ability to assign the bounty to particular groups or individuals for them to collect, like kill-rights currently have, and let the payout be 100% (of killvalue, or of bounty) instead of the current 20% of KM value.

This fixes the problem of it being no incentive at the moment, and also ALLOWS for clever exploitation and scamming without it being the epidemic that comes with 100% payout available to everybody which just results in the bountied person killing themselves with an alt to collect all the bounty isk.

It would make it a real bounty system that can be set as high as the angry miner wants, and then if I want to collect it myself I have to infiltrate whoever they set it to be available too, or collude with them...

See how it would make for a fun and useful system that CAN be scammed, but not so easily scammed that it would be rampant or not worth bountying? Useful but fallible, that's what ccp should be aiming for with everything like this.

oooh, I like this idea, right now player bounties are a bit of a joke

though in theory there's nothing currently stopping someone from hiring a person or group to go kill someone. Hiring mercenaries to wardec someone is one example of this.


We do get contracts like this and so the bounty hunter life and career can work. I'd like to see that complimented with a better in game bounty hunter system!
Raz Muesin
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2016-05-20 04:42:58 UTC
I have never fully thought about the bounty system. But I did think there should be a bounty hunter profession. You randomly pull bounties, so you can't just farm your alt. You get to attack them without concord attention. And, if they enter a system where you have decent influence with agents (or maybe factions) you will be alerted.

But the biggest problem is haulers. They will just be big juicy targets. Need to ensure products can flow from here to there.
Raejin Traed
Misadventures of Interstellar Tourists
#31 - 2016-05-20 07:38:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Raejin Traed
I think a system that benefits those putting on the bounties, those hunting for bounties, and even those getting the bounties should make them more interesting. Bounties once placed, should be made possible to be claimed, there should be a valid career in bounty hunting.
What I would propose is a complete re-vamp of the system, which would include the following:

1) Make a bounty last a certain timescale, the smallest bounties, will only be able to be placed for 1 hour+, the largest of bounties will be able to be placed for up to 1 week.
2) Once a bounty is placed, it will only be seen only by a player who has skill(s) in bounty hunting (new skill(s) needed!) and can be killed without penalty by those with the skill(s), and thefull bounty would be shared by anyone that participates in the fight
3) These new skillsets can be geared towards how far away you can see players with bounties etc. And also some skills to help counteract the bounties when placed (including a time delay, allowing a few mins to get away someone before the bounty goes live etc) which will help from people advertising they are going to put on a bounty, and having campers waiting knowing its going on - dont want a more abusive system
4) Any player that has a bounty placed on them, will have a chance to gain some/all of the bounty, depending on how long they are in space, while the timer is running, if they spend 100% of the time docked, and therefore not able to be killed, they recieve 0% of the bounty, for every % of the bounty they stay in space, and the bounty is not claimed within the time limit, they get that % themselves for avoiding being killed. Any % that is not given to the player due to them being docked, will go into a bounty hunter pot, which can be claimed by those who are bounty hunting as an extra advantage for killing other players, and allowing this to be a more lucrative career. (e.g the pot is distributed weekly to the best hunters)

This could make things more exciting, not only for the players who have the bounties, but also for those who wish to hunt for them. It may be too much work to implement, or not be able to be worked in - but I think there will be some people who would find it fun to get a bounty, and see how long they can survive with it, and could make an interesting career path, not only in bounty hunting, but bounty gaining and even bounty security, where you could protect those with bounties for a share of it if kept. This would also mean, that bounties will be claimed more, and those placing bounties will not be able to just use it to abuse, as it would have some meaning.
Raging Bull Unchained
Cryonic Origin
Cryonic Origin Alliance
#32 - 2016-05-20 07:45:16 UTC
Raejin Traed wrote:
[...]

1) Make a bounty last a certain timescale, the smallest bounties, will only be able to be placed for 1 hour+, the largest of bounties will be able to be placed for up to 1 week.

[...]


If docked up or cloaked the timer stops counting down.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#33 - 2016-05-20 08:44:02 UTC
Natural CloneKiller wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The current bounty system is about as good as we're going to get until CCP care to take the time to integrate bounty hunting into the contract system (or some similar mechanism).

If I can issue a bounty contract on a player (or corp, or alliance) to a specific corp/player/alliance, then I have at least some agency over who can collect. Sure, corps and alliances can be infiltrated, but that takes some work, and if there are multiple competing outfits, probably isn't ISK efffective.

CCP could structure bounty contracts something like this:

They can be issued against specific individuals.
They can be issued against specific corporations
They can be issued against specific alliances

Any destroyed implants, hulls, items or structures belonging to the target counts for the bounty contract.



They can be issued by individuals or corporations
They can set to have the following acceptance parameters:

1) Private: the contract has been issued to a specific individual character. Only that character can collect bounty from the contract.
2) Corp: the contract has been issued to a specific corporation. Only members of that corp can collect bounty from the contract.
3) Alliance: the contract has been issued to a specific alliance. Only members of that alliance can collect bounty from the contract.
4) Coalition: the contract has been issed as an open contract. Only individual characters with a standing set by the issuer to equal or greater than the required level can collect bounty from the contract.
5) Open: anyone can collect bounty from the contract.


As observed several times in this thread alone, restricting who can collect the bounty is the key to the issue. If there's no way to stop anyone from collecting it, then the bounty has to be limited to irreducable loss, the way it is now. But fully open bounties can be fun, and they have their place in the scheme of things, so leave them in as an option.

Having decided who gets the contract, the issuer then sets the bounty conditions:

0-100% of destroyed implant value
0-100% of uninsured hull value
0-100% of insured hull value
0-100% of destroyed item value
0-100% of dropped item value
0-100% of destroyed structure value

This allows bounty issuers a fairly straightforward method to decide who the contract is aimed at, and also enables fine granularity of reward conditions to incite specific results.

So for example, if all I care about is paying bounty hunters to destroy pods because I'm fighting a group like Snuff* who all use HG slaves, I might set the implant value to a high percentage, the hull values low, and destroyed/dropped modules to 0 - I don't care if the hunters are spending their time blowing up shuttles and t1 haulers, as long as they're popping the pods.

Alternatively, if I want them to target Snuff's capital ships, I could set a high rate on hull values.

Or if I just want Snuff's staging towers killed, then I put a high value on structures and low or zero on everything else.

If I'm the IWI guy and I want goons dead and damb the cost, I could just set them all to 100%. And so on.

Because of the different bounty conditions, contracts can be tailored towards specific groups and even drive specific playstyles.




*No Snuff members were harmed in the making of this post.




I liked some of this. The contract assignment seems good and but I don't like the complexity of the payment. For me the reason why the bounty system does not work OS because it's just not financially worth it. Some good suggestions though.


The 'complexity of the payment' as you put it is exactly what the issue with the bounty system is. As soon as you just make it "lol anyone can shoot this guy and get all the ISK" then this guy will undock in an insured hull and collect the bounty with his alt. The old bounty system was essentially a mechanism to scam people who were already angry.

If you want to isse a bounty contract that pays 100% of every kill, then my proposal allows for that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2016-05-20 10:14:55 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
abusable, the bounty payoff can be assigned to the alt corp. of the person applying the bounty, what now.

Then the issuer has to work himself to pop targets and get his own money back. He could've done exactly the same without using bounty system at all in the first place. So I don't see why that is a problem.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Ankor Grammaten
Dragonhold Enterprises
#35 - 2016-05-20 21:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ankor Grammaten
My problem with the present system is that anyone can put a bounty on anyone for any reason or none. In RL bounties are offered by some kind of authority for some specific reason (like being a fugitive from the law). You can't just put a bounty on your neighbor because he had a loud party or because you don't like the look of him. That's something else entirely and would be a crime.

So, to be a "real" bounty system, lacking courts, laws, etc, there would need to be something to enforce placing bounties only for "good reasons", and good luck with defining that.

One thing that could be interesting is to put real teeth into the penalty, like "prison". Currently "death" is no more than an inconvenience at worst. I would suggest instituting a system where a "criminal" could be "captured " (details to be defined) and "locked up" by a short ban on logging in, or be confined to a prison station maybe.
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#36 - 2016-05-21 05:55:51 UTC
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
My problem with the present system is that anyone can put a bounty on anyone for any reason or none. In RL bounties are offered by some kind of authority for some specific reason (like being a fugitive from the law). You can't just put a bounty on your neighbor because he had a loud party or because you don't like the look of him. That's something else entirely and would be a crime.

So, to be a "real" bounty system, lacking courts, laws, etc, there would need to be something to enforce placing bounties only for "good reasons", and good luck with defining that.

One thing that could be interesting is to put real teeth into the penalty, like "prison". Currently "death" is no more than an inconvenience at worst. I would suggest instituting a system where a "criminal" could be "captured " (details to be defined) and "locked up" by a short ban on logging in, or be confined to a prison station maybe.


Death in eve does normally come at a price. It is good that as an mmo it's not just rescan with your same stuff. It cost when you get shot down. Also, not sure Ccp would alow us to lock people up although that would create some funny salty tears I'm not sure this would be a good option. Your thoughts on how and who can bounties be placed on might have some merit, but I do like how we van place bounties on anyone. Maybe this needs reviewing though.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#37 - 2016-05-21 08:24:26 UTC
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
My problem with the present system is that anyone can put a bounty on anyone for any reason or none. In RL bounties are offered by some kind of authority for some specific reason (like being a fugitive from the law). You can't just put a bounty on your neighbor because he had a loud party or because you don't like the look of him. That's something else entirely and would be a crime.

So, to be a "real" bounty system, lacking courts, laws, etc, there would need to be something to enforce placing bounties only for "good reasons", and good luck with defining that.

One thing that could be interesting is to put real teeth into the penalty, like "prison". Currently "death" is no more than an inconvenience at worst. I would suggest instituting a system where a "criminal" could be "captured " (details to be defined) and "locked up" by a short ban on logging in, or be confined to a prison station maybe.



Uh criminals absolutely put out bounties. What do you think a contract killer even does?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#38 - 2016-05-21 08:29:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Ankor Grammaten wrote:
My problem with the present system is that anyone can put a bounty on anyone for any reason or none. In RL bounties are offered by some kind of authority for some specific reason (like being a fugitive from the law). You can't just put a bounty on your neighbor because he had a loud party or because you don't like the look of him. That's something else entirely and would be a crime.

So, to be a "real" bounty system, lacking courts, laws, etc, there would need to be something to enforce placing bounties only for "good reasons", and good luck with defining that.

One thing that could be interesting is to put real teeth into the penalty, like "prison". Currently "death" is no more than an inconvenience at worst. I would suggest instituting a system where a "criminal" could be "captured " (details to be defined) and "locked up" by a short ban on logging in, or be confined to a prison station maybe.

If you have a problem with things in the game because they aren't like RL, you must have a very long list.
Natural CloneKiller
Commonwealth Mercenaries
BLACKFLAG.
#39 - 2016-05-21 13:38:42 UTC
The other question I guess is., if Ccp fixed the bounty hunter system, would people want to be one? I love merc work and often get a buzz from a client when they ask and pay us to hunt a specific target. This is very similar.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#40 - 2016-05-21 14:36:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
(Two threads on the same topic? Pasting from the other thread...)

Bounty systems (a true bounty system) are incompatible with EVE Online.

The purpose of a bounty is to stop a behavior which can't be stopped in any other way. Yet in EVE Online, there are only a few things deemed unacceptable behavior and they are enforced via rules and GMs. The rest of possible behaviors it's just "playing the game". Thus, any "bounty system" actually working as a bounty system would just pee on someone's playstyle for no reason. Thus you can't turn bounty system into a "free-kill voucher" against non-PvP players nor a "omg what a terrible mistake I did" harsh penalty against PvPrs.

The current bounty system is stupid and mostly useless but it can't be gamed, and that's about the best you can do within EVE's spirit and guidelines. Whenever you ask to "improve" it some players will ask for a way to game it, or a way to circumvent crimewatch, or a way to discourage ganking. CCP would be foolish to listen to any of them.


PS: anyway I would get rid of the ability to bounty yourself. It's eye-soring stupid. What?
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