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Mysteries of dps and damage per hit
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#21 - 2016-05-17 00:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
elitatwo wrote:
Now I have to admit, I really don't know. I do however assume that those happen when tracking comes into which I didn't go into detail because there are sites for already.
If I take my Nightmare I get those when I am too close for my tachyons to hit and maybe one of the four "graze" something for low damage.

The client shows 3 missing shots and one hit but if thats accurate I can't tell. I have seen all combinations of one or two or three turrets missing and doing only 400 damage.

Other than the "more is always better" analogy, it would be nice to know what if anything one can focus on to improve hit performance. I'd be happy just reducing the number of subpar hits - whether it's hyping tracking speed to an unreal level, applying target painters to augment this, etc.

It looks like we have: Grazes (50%), Glances Off (75%?), Hits (100%), Penetrates (125%?), Smashes (150%) and Wrecks (300%). "Grazes" seem to be particularly rare and "Smashes" and "Penetrates" quite common.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#22 - 2016-05-17 00:15:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
I have a practical question then: How does one reduce the amount of poorer quality hits (ie: grazing) - or is there even a way to accomplish this? Are we relegated to random chance for the regular occurrence of 50-150% shots? I'm not even taking about the 300% wrecking shots here...


Short answer: increase chance to hit by whatever means necessary.

Long answer: maybe I should have used an example already, so here goes.

Let's say you have 80% chance to hit. It doesn't matter how you got there: tracking problems and falloff problems are treated equally here. Not only do you now miss 20% of the time, but the top 20% of normal hit quality is now also off limits. You will not get 130% to 150% damage, which means your normal damage spread is from 50% to 130% with a mean centering at 90% of optimal damage.

Does that make more sense?
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#23 - 2016-05-17 00:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
After reading it twice, yes - it does. Is it possible to increase your hit chance beyond 100%, or is 100% the theoretical maximum?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#24 - 2016-05-17 00:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Zhilia Mann
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
After reading it twice, yes - it does. Is it possible to increase your hit chance beyond 100%, or is 100% the theoretical maximum?


That's the maximum.

Edit: mathematically, you're raising a fraction to some positive power. The best case result you can get is 1, which corresponds here to 100%.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#25 - 2016-05-17 00:40:21 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It looks like we have: Grazes (50%), Glances Off (75%?), Hits (100%), Penetrates (125%?), Smashes (150%) and Wrecks (300%). "Grazes" seem to be particularly rare and "Smashes" and "Penetrates" quite common.


Ok, now I'm in speculative territory and find admitting it: I'd guess that grouped guns report only the highest quality hit. Since you get to roll 4 times and the verbal description matches the highest, you're going to see a skew towards better hits reported. Damage shouldn't change from what I've described though.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#26 - 2016-05-17 00:41:26 UTC
Next question: Does it make an difference or increase your chances by grouping weapons or firing them individually? I'm looking at sentry drones where they all fire individually (5) or in pairs (2) on ships like the Dominix and Golem. Obviously there's a range and tracking difference between the two, but running the Dominix tonight I found I was achieving probably better than 100% hits the vast majority of the time at ranges probably 50% into falloff. V drone skills, 4x Faction DDAs and 4x omni links (3x range, 1x tracking).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#27 - 2016-05-17 00:46:08 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Ok, now I'm in speculative territory and find admitting it: I'd guess that grouped guns report only the highest quality hit. Since you get to roll 4 times and the verbal description matches the highest, you're going to see a skew towards better hits reported. Damage shouldn't change from what I've described though.

I guess that would make sense as opposed to one bad roll dominating the outcome for all guns. The question remains whether you're better off having more or fewer guns, ie: something like a Vindicator over a Kronos Marauder. Despite using twice the ammunition does the Vindicator also give you a better hit chance as a consequence?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#28 - 2016-05-17 00:46:17 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
After reading it twice, yes - it does. Is it possible to increase your hit chance beyond 100%, or is 100% the theoretical maximum?


That's the maximum.

Edit: mathematically, you're raising a fraction to some positive power. The best case result you can get is 1, which corresponds here to 100%.


Yep that. But flying your ship so that you can hit them but they cant does need a lot of practice and experience.

This is not supposed to sound condescending and you may want to visit your logs for hits and maybe record a mission where you can practice and watch when you got which hit and how and where you were positioned.

I can remember all that but it does help. My rule of thumb is, with 2x damage mods and 2x racking enhancers on a shield boat and one damage mod on an armor boat and maybe a computer for pve and for pvp, you may want to fly with local reps or you have a fleet fit with plates and logi.

Those depend very much on what someone else has developed for your fleet. I can only speak for solo fits that have to deal with 90% of the situation you might find yourself in.

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#29 - 2016-05-17 01:59:00 UTC
Interesting observations from drone combat... Going through my combat log, based on the last 95 attacks:
• 100% were hits (0% missed shots)
• 8 were Grazes (lowest) or 8.42%
• 12 were Glances Off (second lowest) or 12.63%
• 23 were Hits (100% DPS or higher) or 24.21%
• 30 were Penetrates or 31.58%
• 19 were Smashes or 20%
• 2 were Wrecking shots 2.11%

That means 65/95 shots or 68.42% dealt above average DPS (anywhere from 125% to 300%). 74/95 shots or 77.89% dealt average or above DPS. I found this very helpful link, which I've amended with updated descriptions.
• "Grazes" .......... 0.500-0.625 of stated DPS (0.5625 average)
• "Glances Off" ... 0.625-0.750 of stated DPS (0.6875 average)
• "Hits" ................ 0.750-1.00 of stated DPS (0.875 average)
• "Penetrates" ..... 1.000-1.250 of stated DPS (1.125 average)
• "Smashes" ........ 1.250-1.490 of stated DPS (1.37 average)
• "Wrecks" ........... 3.00 of stated DPS (3 average)

So if we use 800 drone DPS, we get:
• 8x Grazes (8.42%) » 450 DPS » 37.89 DPS
• 12x Glances (12.63%) » 550 DPS » 69.47 DPS
• 23x Hits (24.21%) » 700 DPS » 169.47 DPS
• 30x Penetrates (31.58%) » 1000 DPS » 315.8 DPS
• 19x Smashes (20%) » 1096 DPS » 219.2 DPS
• 2x Wrecking (2.11%) » 3000 DPS » 63.3 DPS

Total DPS: 875.23 DPS (average) over the original paper DPS of 800, which is an increase of about 9.4%. So it definitely seems tracking, etc. pays off. More testing in-progress...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#30 - 2016-05-17 17:57:51 UTC
I don't want to oversimplify anything but SWEET MOTHER OF PEARL just hit approach and start shooting. Once you've got that going for you - apply webs/scrams/painters/drones as is applicable.

webs/painters = good
optimal = good
low transversal = good

being tracking disrupted/damped/jammed = bad
being out of range = bad
high transversal = bad


Just do it!
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#31 - 2016-05-17 18:43:58 UTC
It's okay, I don't write any more guides in the future.


Geezz...

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
#32 - 2016-05-17 20:08:13 UTC
I think the problem was you never explained the purpose of your guide. You just started talking about how long range and alpha is better than high dps without giving any context. You also made it seem like lower dps numbers get higher dps in reality, without mentioning application.

I don't think the problem is your guide so much as the lack of context within the guide.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#33 - 2016-05-17 21:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sobaan Tali
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Ok, now I'm in speculative territory and find admitting it: I'd guess that grouped guns report only the highest quality hit. Since you get to roll 4 times and the verbal description matches the highest, you're going to see a skew towards better hits reported. Damage shouldn't change from what I've described though.

I guess that would make sense as opposed to one bad roll dominating the outcome for all guns. The question remains whether you're better off having more or fewer guns, ie: something like a Vindicator over a Kronos Marauder. Despite using twice the ammunition does the Vindicator also give you a better hit chance as a consequence?


Sounds more like a question of whether or not the server still runs independent calculations for each gun, even when grouped. From what I've seen, I'm under the impression each gun is in fact treated separately irrespective of being in a weapons group or being ungrouped.

I have yet another two questions to add to what Arthur may have been asking: What sounds better to you? One gun with 80% hit chance or 100 guns each with say 60% chance to hit? My thinking is that fewer guns means that misses hurt your outcome more so than if you had more guns to work with. In that scenario, the lone gun will either hit or miss and you do no damage. With many more guns but less chance to hit, you're more guaranteed to not apply most or all of the potential damage you could do if all guns hit, though just as likely to at least do some damage.

Also, does the realization that you'll likely be firing these weapons more than once on progressively larger and tougher targets, though you will at times need but one good shot -- so long as it successfully lands -- to kill some smaller or weaker targets, change or affect your choice for the first question?

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#34 - 2016-05-17 22:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Sobaan Tali wrote:
I have yet another two questions to add to what Arthur may have been asking: What sounds better to you? One gun with 80% hit chance or 100 guns each with say 60% chance to hit? My thinking is that fewer guns means that misses hurt your outcome more so than if you had more guns to work with. In that scenario, the lone gun will either hit or miss and you do no damage. With many more guns but less chance to hit, you're more guaranteed to not apply most or all of the potential damage you could do if all guns hit, though just as likely to at least do some damage.

Also, does the realization that you'll likely be firing these weapons more than once on progressively larger and tougher targets, though you will at times need but one good shot -- so long as it successfully lands -- to kill some smaller or weaker targets, change or affect your choice for the first question?

And while we're at it, fewer or more drones? Obviously some ships like the Worm, Gila and Rattlesnake are limited by hull to a maximum of 2 bonused drones, but often you'll have 50mbit or 75mbit of bandwidth and instead of using 2-3 heavy drones you'd split them up into a combination of light, medium and heavy drones to maximize the limit of 5 drones. I realize that this probably isn't as high on the priority scale as guns, but a lot of ships employ drones as either the main or another primary weapon system.

Some guns also have a lot better tracking and faster cyclic rate (ie: 350mm vs. 425mm railguns), so despite doing less stated DPS - are some of the less powerful guns actually doing more smashing and penetrating hits? If so, it would seem that a higher quality hit rate might be more advantageous than slightly higher DPS.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#35 - 2016-05-18 02:05:12 UTC
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
I think the problem was you never explained the purpose of your guide. You just started talking about how long range and alpha is better than high dps without giving any context. You also made it seem like lower dps numbers get higher dps in reality, without mentioning application.

I don't think the problem is your guide so much as the lack of context within the guide.


Ouuuh :-(

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#36 - 2016-05-18 02:13:38 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
I don't think the problem is your guide so much as the lack of context within the guide.

Ouuuh :-(

On the plus side, there were some interesting develoments as a result - even if we don't yet have a solid grasp on how to maximize hit results. It seems like wrecking shots are also more common (2-3%) - even if it's not possible to influence.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#37 - 2016-05-18 03:15:32 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
I don't think the problem is your guide so much as the lack of context within the guide.

Ouuuh :-(

On the plus side, there were some interesting develoments as a result - even if we don't yet have a solid grasp on how to maximize hit results. It seems like wrecking shots are also more common (2-3%) - even if it's not possible to influence.


Glad I could help. I'll add a little context on the first post.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#38 - 2016-05-18 04:28:55 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
It's okay, I don't write any more guides in the future.


Geezz...


This has been a pretty damn interesting thread/argument/debate. I learned a couple things here I never thought about in ten years of play. (I have my own viewpoints on missiles, which haven't been addressed much here.)

Keep posting, even if it's wrong, I think you'll find most arguments are from smart people with a different viewpoint, different skill sets, or different experience.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#39 - 2016-05-18 11:20:37 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
It's okay, I don't write any more guides in the future.


Geezz...



Nah, you're stuff is all good (probably, I can only read so much). I just like to point out that all the math is stuff that happens in the background. There are a few basic things that you can do to improve the outcome and that's that.



I would say a better debate is something like - Which is better? Painter or Webber.

And all say the real issue isn't in the math your guns do with a ship that is painted vice a ship that is webbed. For example: Sleeper PVE. C4 sleepers spawn at around 100km so a web is useless. Most of the other Sleepers sites spawn at 'normal' ranges so you can rage on about web/painter being better.

Here's another example I've seen - the web / painter debate runs for 4 days and no one ever brings up that you can bring ships with webs and 2 with painters and life is good and the math doesn't really matter.

Here's another: Webs are key (pvp) in keeping players from getting away or to a gate/station so they have a lot of value beyond how they affect tracking and what not. Conversely the game is currently dominated by risk averse kiting metas that render webs useless because of the opposing fleets range, so painters are better. So which do you fit??
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#40 - 2016-05-18 16:20:12 UTC
Thank you all!

I had no idea that this would turn out to be such an interesting debate since my intention was another guide for everyone. But I find it as interesting as you do so I just went with it.

Raven, I haven't written much about missiles because I didn't want to disrupt the discussion and findings here. That would have been lost here but I can always come back to it if you would want to read it.

Back to Arthur's observations, see my findings were completely different and I had more penetrating or smashing hits in falloff, that why I said they would occur in falloff.

And yes, after a decade of EVE, I still learn new things too, I love that. It keeps you on your toes.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

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