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EVE Mutual Fund
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Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#1 - 2016-05-16 20:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Audelesi
Hey all, Dante here.

Please note this is a concept in the initial phase.

I am a relatively new player to EVE, but I have a vested interest in the marketplace and stock market. In that regard, I had a concept after seeing several IPOS and bonds here. My concept is that of a mutual fund - a collaborative effort that will render us all profitable.

THE IDEA
Members would buy in, and own a percentage of the mutual fund. There would be an initial 100,000 shares issued, with the potential for more to be issued provided interest. This would work similarly to an IPO, except with the money invested into this project, it would be in turn invested into bonds, IPOs, and other market items. As profit is made, dividends would be issued according to the shares, with a 5% retainer being held in the funds treasury.

ANTI-SCAMMING MEASURES
Now clearly, this concept could be an easy set up for me to take your money and scam it away from you. My thought is this - the mutual fund would operate as a corporation that has a board of directors with 3 members. Each member owns 33% of the corporation, and thus, can't withdraw money from the corporation without approval of all 3 members. Each member of the board would be individually responsible for a separate component of the mutual fund - one for bonds, one for IPO's, and one for market items. This way, nobody can steal the money, and rather than one person, three people are responsible for your success.

FURTHER PROFIT CONCEPTS
Within this corporation, we would set-up a structure to permit loaning and asset management - once we get momentum rolling, we will be able to issue loans as a corporate entity.

Our share price would fluctuate based on the estimated profit per share, and shareholders can "sell" their shares back to the mutual fund's board of directors for the current value. Those shares will be treated as owned by the mutual fund, and in turn, any profit generated by them, will go into the mutual fund's treasury that will be turned into profit.

I understand this idea may have been done before, but i think it's a great way to ensure mutual profitability, with minimal corruption, and maximum potential for profit. Is there interest? If there is, I would think that we could start the mutual fund at projected value of 5 billion ISK - meaning each share is worth 50,000 ISK. This low profit threshold, would be sufficient to prove it's success, without major loss if not successful.

Is there interest in this matter?
Cista2
EVE Museum
#2 - 2016-05-16 20:57:30 UTC
For the matter of security in director numbers, you may want to read up on T4U.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#3 - 2016-05-16 21:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Audelesi
Cista2 wrote:
For the matter of security in director numbers, you may want to read up on T4U.

I am aware of that debacle, which is why I think that every period of time, the board of directors would be voted upon by the shareholders in the mutual fund, ensuring a transitory board, and preventing scamming. Would that mitigate this concern or would a better solution be necessary? It would turn the mutual fund into a community operated function, rather than a dictatorial system. One board member would be up for re-election every period of time.

Alternatively, what would you recommend to ensure security?
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#4 - 2016-05-16 23:17:52 UTC
If you need a hand drop by the scc-lounge ingame or preferably on slack or discord..

https://discord.gg/0umquajn3nWYLY8q
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-05-17 00:31:00 UTC
Dante Audelesi wrote:
Hey all, Dante here.

Please note this is a concept in the initial phase.

I am a relatively new player to EVE, but I have a vested interest in the marketplace and stock market. In that regard, I had a concept after seeing several IPOS and bonds here. My concept is that of a mutual fund - a collaborative effort that will render us all profitable.

THE IDEA
Members would buy in, and own a percentage of the mutual fund. There would be an initial 100,000 shares issued, with the potential for more to be issued provided interest. This would work similarly to an IPO, except with the money invested into this project, it would be in turn invested into bonds, IPOs, and other market items. As profit is made, dividends would be issued according to the shares, with a 5% retainer being held in the funds treasury.

ANTI-SCAMMING MEASURES
Now clearly, this concept could be an easy set up for me to take your money and scam it away from you. My thought is this - the mutual fund would operate as a corporation that has a board of directors with 3 members. Each member owns 33% of the corporation, and thus, can't withdraw money from the corporation without approval of all 3 members. Each member of the board would be individually responsible for a separate component of the mutual fund - one for bonds, one for IPO's, and one for market items. This way, nobody can steal the money, and rather than one person, three people are responsible for your success.

FURTHER PROFIT CONCEPTS
Within this corporation, we would set-up a structure to permit loaning and asset management - once we get momentum rolling, we will be able to issue loans as a corporate entity.

Our share price would fluctuate based on the estimated profit per share, and shareholders can "sell" their shares back to the mutual fund's board of directors for the current value. Those shares will be treated as owned by the mutual fund, and in turn, any profit generated by them, will go into the mutual fund's treasury that will be turned into profit.

I understand this idea may have been done before, but i think it's a great way to ensure mutual profitability, with minimal corruption, and maximum potential for profit. Is there interest? If there is, I would think that we could start the mutual fund at projected value of 5 billion ISK - meaning each share is worth 50,000 ISK. This low profit threshold, would be sufficient to prove it's success, without major loss if not successful.

Is there interest in this matter?


First off, if the board of directors own 33%, it would only take 2 members to vote yes in order to withdraw, not 3.

Secondly, if the board members are simply directors, they can withdraw everything without needing to vote. withdrawing ISK from the corp wallet doesn't require a vote.

Thirdly, if board members are determined by votes from shareholders, that would mean the shareholders have already deposited ISK into your corp while you are the only director/board member, meaning that you could still pack up and run away with the isk.

All in all, none of what you say is feasable, and it's so easy for someone, most likely you, to run off with the isk.

Can you offer collateral that matches the amount you want to raise?
Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#6 - 2016-05-17 01:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Audelesi
Solonius Rex wrote:
Dante Audelesi wrote:
Hey all, Dante here.

Please note this is a concept in the initial phase.

I am a relatively new player to EVE, but I have a vested interest in the marketplace and stock market. In that regard, I had a concept after seeing several IPOS and bonds here. My concept is that of a mutual fund - a collaborative effort that will render us all profitable.

THE IDEA
Members would buy in, and own a percentage of the mutual fund. There would be an initial 100,000 shares issued, with the potential for more to be issued provided interest. This would work similarly to an IPO, except with the money invested into this project, it would be in turn invested into bonds, IPOs, and other market items. As profit is made, dividends would be issued according to the shares, with a 5% retainer being held in the funds treasury.

ANTI-SCAMMING MEASURES
Now clearly, this concept could be an easy set up for me to take your money and scam it away from you. My thought is this - the mutual fund would operate as a corporation that has a board of directors with 3 members. Each member owns 33% of the corporation, and thus, can't withdraw money from the corporation without approval of all 3 members. Each member of the board would be individually responsible for a separate component of the mutual fund - one for bonds, one for IPO's, and one for market items. This way, nobody can steal the money, and rather than one person, three people are responsible for your success.

FURTHER PROFIT CONCEPTS
Within this corporation, we would set-up a structure to permit loaning and asset management - once we get momentum rolling, we will be able to issue loans as a corporate entity.

Our share price would fluctuate based on the estimated profit per share, and shareholders can "sell" their shares back to the mutual fund's board of directors for the current value. Those shares will be treated as owned by the mutual fund, and in turn, any profit generated by them, will go into the mutual fund's treasury that will be turned into profit.

I understand this idea may have been done before, but i think it's a great way to ensure mutual profitability, with minimal corruption, and maximum potential for profit. Is there interest? If there is, I would think that we could start the mutual fund at projected value of 5 billion ISK - meaning each share is worth 50,000 ISK. This low profit threshold, would be sufficient to prove it's success, without major loss if not successful.

Is there interest in this matter?


First off, if the board of directors own 33%, it would only take 2 members to vote yes in order to withdraw, not 3.

Secondly, if the board members are simply directors, they can withdraw everything without needing to vote. withdrawing ISK from the corp wallet doesn't require a vote.

Thirdly, if board members are determined by votes from shareholders, that would mean the shareholders have already deposited ISK into your corp while you are the only director/board member, meaning that you could still pack up and run away with the isk.

All in all, none of what you say is feasable, and it's so easy for someone, most likely you, to run off with the isk.

Can you offer collateral that matches the amount you want to raise?


Perhaps you misunderstood. This is not something that exists. I am merely trying to work out the issues before I determine if something like this is feasible for me to create. That said, these are all valid concerns and I don't mean to diminish their value.
Solonius Rex
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-05-17 02:39:03 UTC
Dante Audelesi wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Dante Audelesi wrote:
Hey all, Dante here.

Please note this is a concept in the initial phase.

I am a relatively new player to EVE, but I have a vested interest in the marketplace and stock market. In that regard, I had a concept after seeing several IPOS and bonds here. My concept is that of a mutual fund - a collaborative effort that will render us all profitable.

THE IDEA
Members would buy in, and own a percentage of the mutual fund. There would be an initial 100,000 shares issued, with the potential for more to be issued provided interest. This would work similarly to an IPO, except with the money invested into this project, it would be in turn invested into bonds, IPOs, and other market items. As profit is made, dividends would be issued according to the shares, with a 5% retainer being held in the funds treasury.

ANTI-SCAMMING MEASURES
Now clearly, this concept could be an easy set up for me to take your money and scam it away from you. My thought is this - the mutual fund would operate as a corporation that has a board of directors with 3 members. Each member owns 33% of the corporation, and thus, can't withdraw money from the corporation without approval of all 3 members. Each member of the board would be individually responsible for a separate component of the mutual fund - one for bonds, one for IPO's, and one for market items. This way, nobody can steal the money, and rather than one person, three people are responsible for your success.

FURTHER PROFIT CONCEPTS
Within this corporation, we would set-up a structure to permit loaning and asset management - once we get momentum rolling, we will be able to issue loans as a corporate entity.

Our share price would fluctuate based on the estimated profit per share, and shareholders can "sell" their shares back to the mutual fund's board of directors for the current value. Those shares will be treated as owned by the mutual fund, and in turn, any profit generated by them, will go into the mutual fund's treasury that will be turned into profit.

I understand this idea may have been done before, but i think it's a great way to ensure mutual profitability, with minimal corruption, and maximum potential for profit. Is there interest? If there is, I would think that we could start the mutual fund at projected value of 5 billion ISK - meaning each share is worth 50,000 ISK. This low profit threshold, would be sufficient to prove it's success, without major loss if not successful.

Is there interest in this matter?


First off, if the board of directors own 33%, it would only take 2 members to vote yes in order to withdraw, not 3.

Secondly, if the board members are simply directors, they can withdraw everything without needing to vote. withdrawing ISK from the corp wallet doesn't require a vote.

Thirdly, if board members are determined by votes from shareholders, that would mean the shareholders have already deposited ISK into your corp while you are the only director/board member, meaning that you could still pack up and run away with the isk.

All in all, none of what you say is feasable, and it's so easy for someone, most likely you, to run off with the isk.

Can you offer collateral that matches the amount you want to raise?


Perhaps you misunderstood. This is not something that exists. I am merely trying to work out the issues before I determine if something like this is feasible for me to create. That said, these are all valid concerns and I don't mean to diminish their value.


Cool. So short answer, its not feasable. Long answer, its not feeeeaaaaaaasssssssssaaaaaabbbbbbllllllleeeeeeee.
Cista2
EVE Museum
#8 - 2016-05-17 05:39:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
Dante Audelesi wrote:
Alternatively, what would you recommend to ensure security?

Money in a fund cannot be secured. The way to secure the money is to not have it in the fund.
Come up with a rigorous system for not having the money in the fund, but instead distributing the money among trustees, in locked BPOs, and in the investments, then you may arrive at something that can attract investors.

Your person is still a problem though, since you are an unknown.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Arancar Australis
Dead Sun Rising Enterprises
#9 - 2016-05-17 05:40:51 UTC
It always comes back to whom do you trust to run something like this. Where can you find a group of people who will want to run something like this and have no true intent to run off with funds etc.

It's an interesting idea to say the least.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#10 - 2016-05-17 07:36:02 UTC
The trust issues is not relevant if the mutual fund is grown at the right pace..

If it has stages, and the initial investors act as underwriters aswell as stakeholders, and the first phases are under scrutiny, and maybe even administration, than I see no problems at all..

Ideally OP would start out as the administrator and let the assets be handled by a broker at levels that match the broker/holders credibility.

So in practical terms a mini Chribba-bank or Grendel-brokerage.. What these people would not be interested in is doing the micromanagements, holding the actual assets and handing over the assets as credibility of the OP and risk assessment allows, would be perfectly valid.

This is NOT a low risk loan suggestion, and MD should stop treating these things as such.. its not 2% return per month, its potentially closer to 10 or 20% Reinvested or paid as dividends according to votes and BP.

This is a high risk high returns business plan, and thus all the talk of high securitizing, underwriting, and collaterals is a waste of time, and borders on unserious posting.

OP is not asking for 1 Trillion sized capital, as far as I can tell, just initial interest to scale a proof of concept.

That said, I would also like to see a bit more in the realm of detailed Business Plan, and not just the elevator pitch.
Jaque Pot
Jaque Pot Holdings
#11 - 2016-05-17 12:00:35 UTC
Caleb Ayrania wrote:

That said, I would also like to see a bit more in the realm of detailed Business Plan, and not just the elevator pitch.


Same here
Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#12 - 2016-05-17 13:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Dante Audelesi
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
The trust issues is not relevant if the mutual fund is grown at the right pace..

If it has stages, and the initial investors act as underwriters aswell as stakeholders, and the first phases are under scrutiny, and maybe even administration, than I see no problems at all..

Ideally OP would start out as the administrator and let the assets be handled by a broker at levels that match the broker/holders credibility.

So in practical terms a mini Chribba-bank or Grendel-brokerage.. What these people would not be interested in is doing the micromanagements, holding the actual assets and handing over the assets as credibility of the OP and risk assessment allows, would be perfectly valid.

This is NOT a low risk loan suggestion, and MD should stop treating these things as such.. its not 2% return per month, its potentially closer to 10 or 20% Reinvested or paid as dividends according to votes and BP.

This is a high risk high returns business plan, and thus all the talk of high securitizing, underwriting, and collaterals is a waste of time, and borders on unserious posting.

OP is not asking for 1 Trillion sized capital, as far as I can tell, just initial interest to scale a proof of concept.

That said, I would also like to see a bit more in the realm of detailed Business Plan, and not just the elevator pitch.

Very well - I'll compose an actual business plan after my final today and post it here for greater detail in a few hours. I just need to do some things and I can write and post it.
Cista2
EVE Museum
#13 - 2016-05-17 13:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cista2
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
...its not 2% return per month, its potentially closer to 10 or 20% Reinvested or paid as dividends according to votes and BP.

Ahh, but where would the OP find worthy secondary investments (bonds, IPOs) that could net the mutual fund 20% ROI per month? That's not going to happen.

My channel: "Signatures" -
Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#14 - 2016-05-17 13:46:05 UTC
Cista2 wrote:
Caleb Ayrania wrote:
...its not 2% return per month, its potentially closer to 10 or 20% Reinvested or paid as dividends according to votes and BP.

Ahh, but where would the OP find worthy secondary investments (bonds, IPOs) that could net the mutual fund 20% ROI per month? That's not going to happen.

This is something that can be elaborated on in my complete business plan, but there are quite a few things that can net a 20% ROI in the EVE universe - PLEX being one of them (can be bought for 880 mil in Verge Vendor and sold for 1.1 bil in Jita). There will be 3 main areas of diversification - some of which don't offer as significant ROI (such as bond investment and loans), but exist merely to diversify the portfolio in the event the others don't work.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#15 - 2016-05-17 14:36:50 UTC
Dante Audelesi wrote:
(can be bought for 880 mil in Verge Vendor and sold for 1.1 bil in Jita).


Hmmm.

You should post on your main though.

Free 3rd party services

Buddy link w/ bonus 250k SP, you keep the whole PLEX upon subscribing
Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#16 - 2016-05-17 14:56:56 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Dante Audelesi wrote:
(can be bought for 880 mil in Verge Vendor and sold for 1.1 bil in Jita).


Hmmm.

You should post on your main though.

My main account? This is my main account. As for those requesting a business plan, I am putting it together right now.
Scarlett LaBlanc
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-05-17 15:07:03 UTC
1. Unless something wild happened to the PLEX market yesterday, no one is currently buying for 1.1 Bill.

2. Mama always said that moving PLEX through space was "BAD".
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#18 - 2016-05-17 21:01:00 UTC
Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
1. Unless something wild happened to the PLEX market yesterday, no one is currently buying for 1.1 Bill.

2. Mama always said that moving PLEX through space was "BAD".


I agree..

If the Business plan stands on flipping or shipping around assets, its really not a mutual fund you are starting, but a bond or shares on a tradition business model, and not investment management.

Waiting to see a proper BP.. might also need at least a superficial swot..

Though at the 5-10b range.. this should be chump change and we should just throw some isk at it and see how it scales, and how its next stages are diversified, securitized and compartmentalized.. P

Are you going to virtualized these shares with a broker?

How often will you do audits and financial statements..

What is your profit percantage payout versus reinvestment?

What are you basing you initial composition of investments on and will it be secret or public ?

Hope things like that will be covered in detail and preferably with some rudimentary budget estimates..

Show numbers and Show Effort and people will take it serious.. especially if you dont come asking for trillions on a severely young character, alt or newbro alike..
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2016-05-17 22:11:18 UTC
Still waiting to see why this won't simply devolve into a giant scam/ponzi scheme.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Dante Audelesi
A.N.S.W.E.R
#20 - 2016-05-18 19:09:08 UTC
Perhaps then, this is a project I will revisit when I have a more credible market status. As I evaluate the plan in deeper detail, the only way I can ensure your confidence in me, is if I first show that I can be trusted. This is maybe something I can revisit in a while, but your concerns are well founded, and I am unsure how to assuage them with-out first proving myself trustworthy.
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