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Understanding Cloaking

Author
Rawmeat Mary
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#41 - 2016-05-16 21:36:25 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I had an instance where I cloaked a ship in a null belt, and rats uncloaked/killed it leaving me afk in a pod for 2 hours.

Better question is "how did no one find me?"

I once got decloaked by rats 100km over a belt once. Rats killed my AFK Covert Ops.

I once thought I was cloaked up, and was wondering why that frigate was burning so fast in my general direction... Whoopsie.

'If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins onto their clothing. And if we're very, very lucky, they'll do it in that order.'

Yeah, we're like that.

Prof Dr Haxxx
Peoples Liberation Army
Goonswarm Federation
#42 - 2016-05-16 21:51:44 UTC
Random decloak FTW.

Would be the greatest long-needed feature shakeup since Jump Fatigue. I hope to god CCP slipped this in on the sly.
W33b3l
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-05-16 22:11:11 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Do you have a cat?



I was going to ask this.

Any children as well?

Or a wife that likes to clean your keyboard?

Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#44 - 2016-05-16 22:24:21 UTC
W33b3l wrote:
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Do you have a cat?



I was going to ask this.

Any children as well?

Or a wife that likes to clean your keyboard?



We have actually had 'conversations' with a certain corp member's kittycat. Apparently she knows where the talk button is =^.^=

As for the OP, wait for your ticket response. CCP would have logged whether an input event was detected.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#45 - 2016-05-16 22:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?



Dude.

Dracvlad is the only player I know who successfully hunted down and killed an AFK cloaker. His intel capabilities in the background make me eternally glad he's not a merc.

Herzog, if you think what was written is correct, then jump in game and test it.

That's the first thing I did, before replying, when I saw that reply to the OP. It's just factually wrong.
Mathias Raholan
Iron.Guard
Fraternity.
#46 - 2016-05-16 22:43:10 UTC
Late to the party and has probably been said. If you petition it and half them look at/send in logs you will get your stuff (mostly back). I lost a cloaked hauler in a deep safe. You get a fun email from CONCORD I believe about salvaging your wreck.
Hawke Frost
#47 - 2016-05-16 23:02:58 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?



Dude.

Dracvlad is the only player I know who successfully hunted down and killed an AFK cloaker. His intel capabilities in the background make me eternally glad he's not a merc.

I have not been so afraid of another player since Herr Willkus and King Rothgar ( who can scan you down without you getting a chance to see the probes).




That's a lot of nonsense.

Also, you wording makes it sound as if he did it once which could be explained by sheer luck, the target being at an obvious 0-100km from a celestial or him getting the intel elsewhere (previously used BM, spy alt or whatever). His statements make it sound as if he can repeat the process.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2016-05-17 00:06:04 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Ashilta wrote:
Morning,

Yesterday, one of my toons lost a cloaked ship and I can't figure out how. They were cloaked in a deep safe, which had been created some time ago by warping between two celestials, dropping a bookmark, warping somewhere else, warping to the original bookmark, and then warping between the bookmarks to create a third and final bookmark. This way, I greatly reduce the risk of being found 'accidentally'.

So yesterday, I leave my ship cloaked in the deep safe and I go to have dinner. I come back and realise that my ship is lost and I am in station. Is there some sort of arbitrary time-out that means that my cloaking device will deactivate itself? I find it improbable that I was found, but is it possible that the guy that caught me was randomly warping around the system and happened to decloak me, thus allowing the opportunity for me to be probed? Or am I misunderstanding some other odd behaviour?

Cheers!
You are not misunderstanding anything. You should have been completely safe. Either you left the computer and were not cloaked as you believe, or there is some sort of bug at work here.

File a petition and CCP should (eventually) get to the bottom of it by looking at the logs.


Pretty much this. My money is on the mistakenly thought you were cloaked than bug.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2016-05-17 00:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?



Dude.

Dracvlad is the only player I know who successfully hunted down and killed an AFK cloaker. His intel capabilities in the background make me eternally glad he's not a merc.

Herzog, if you think what was written is correct, then jump in game and test it.

That's the first thing I did, before replying, when I saw that reply to the OP. It's just factually wrong.



Dracvlad is not wrong...but it isn't as likely as it seems. Here is why:

Safe spots are a function of a number of things. Which celestial are you warping to, warp speed, and when you click on the bookmark button. While players might duplicate the first two with a high probability, the chances of the third makes the over all process far less likely. Adding in two bookmarks constructed in a similar manner makes it even less likely.

For example, suppose at the time of making the initial bookmark there are 2 viable celestial bodies. We'll stipulate the same warp speed to simplify the calculations so that can be omitted. All that is left is the probability of dropping a bookmark at exactly the same time. Let suppose there are 20 seconds in which this bookmark could be dropped.

Probability two players have the same bookmark is 0.5*0.05 = 0.025.

Now, again, lets assume the same numbers for the second bookmark. So now the probability of 2 players making the same two bookmarks is 0.000625.

Now, we have to make the third bookmark to make and lets assume for the sake of this example, there are 10 seconds in which to create a viable bookmark (e.g. not on grid with the other two bookmarks). Now the probability is 0.0000625. How often would we have to try and create such book marks to get one hit--i.e. two players each creating the same bookmark? 1 in 16,000 tries. If we increase the number of celestials the probability drops rapidly.

It could happen, but my guess is you thought you activated your cloak, but in fact did not and were probed down and killed.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2016-05-17 01:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
If a cloaked player loses connection, even without a timer, they disappear from local channel but show up on d-scan for one minute before disappearing. It's a one million km emergency warp so if you get a clue of the general direction and distance, have a dab hand with the covops and the probes, it can be done.
Hostiles have one minute to catch and kill that ship. I've done this many times and missed nabbing a guy's Raven by one pass of the probes just the other week.
Eve does work on one-second ticks, but players don't. While in warp, a bookmark is created in the one-second tick after the player hits 'submit'. To catch someone at a bookmark between a celestial and an intercelestial bookmark would be akin to winning the lottery 500 times in a row. Or just Infinity Ziona level of nonsense.
People who type the same way backing each other up tend to be alts of that one wrong duder.

edit: pursuant to previous post ↑ after cloaking at any kind of safe i always burn towards 'empty' sky for a few seconds off the path, probability is now zero.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#51 - 2016-05-17 02:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Teckos Pech wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?



Dude.

Dracvlad is the only player I know who successfully hunted down and killed an AFK cloaker. His intel capabilities in the background make me eternally glad he's not a merc.

Herzog, if you think what was written is correct, then jump in game and test it.

That's the first thing I did, before replying, when I saw that reply to the OP. It's just factually wrong.



Dracvlad is not wrong...but it isn't as likely as it seems.

If it's not as likely as "will create safe spots in exactly the same spot" given the conditions Vlad stipulated, then it is wrong.

You even showed its wrong, hence my original question.

It's wrong for all the reasons you point out and additional ones such as server ping time, which isn't the same for everyone, nor even the same for one person at different times. So when you press the button to accept the bookmark is less important than when the server receives the message.

And it is an extremely easy claim to check. Any of us can do it. Go make a safe as outlined by the OP and if 2 aren't in the exact same spot using the same method, then the claim is wrong. It's simple to test.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#52 - 2016-05-17 03:54:32 UTC
Even knowing all 3 celestials, player warp speeds, skills and how many server tick segments are within that AU warp distance the chance is incredibly low for a 3 celestial safe, but adding the bmk to bmk warp makes it near mathematically impossible to do as it adds in 3 player driven variables on the bmks actual spot irregardless of server reception of the keystroke.

So yes I call BS on what moron boy is claiming and if he did it ONCE he used up all the luck he shouldve used to buy a Powerball lotto ticket for the big one with it.


I too am in the you failed to cloak or something, in RL at your keyboard, decloaked you camp. If this was a regular feature from CCP you would never hear the end of whine and tantrums from the player base as all of their ships went boom over it as people probed them out. CCP will have the info you seek if the player that killed you doesnt give you the info themselves. Either a keystroke was omitted or another one was added. The client window focus issue has happened to me a lot before and once specifically I can recall in relation to not cloaking up when I had wanted to.

Getting on grid through probes or making bmks has never been easier but getting within 2kms of someone is an entirely different animal.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#53 - 2016-05-17 04:09:03 UTC
As a side note.

If people consistantly landed on the same bmk within 2kms a trade hub like Jita would be a good place to use that tactic to find peoples instawarp bmks yet it doesnt work. Even with the multitude of people using dif or the same bmks you dont see a wealth of OMG someone landed on top of me!! moments as people use them. And if such heavily used and traveled areas DONT experience this sort of phenomena on a grand scale it is a telling statistic imo.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#54 - 2016-05-17 04:40:30 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?



Dude.

Dracvlad is the only player I know who successfully hunted down and killed an AFK cloaker. His intel capabilities in the background make me eternally glad he's not a merc.

Herzog, if you think what was written is correct, then jump in game and test it.

That's the first thing I did, before replying, when I saw that reply to the OP. It's just factually wrong.



Is there a bead of sweat rolling down your head as you typed that?

I mean, I know your ilk depends heavily on somebody not knowing one little thing and then losing, so you can declare you leetness and all that. I'm not making a pitch for space bushido, but the "anything for a kill" mentality of your type gets tedious.

Even JP does it. Take a careful look at what he's doing during the start of the video

Yeah I know I know, cloakers (and I'm no fan of AFK cloaking) will now that ONE LITTLE THING they can do after they cloak now is go off in some random direction and ..... NOT END UP ON YOUR KILLBOARD!!!! OMG IT'S A NERF CCP CATERS TO CAREBEARS!!!!!!


One little thing can deny ganks... boo hoo.

(I know another trick but since this is all about superiority through obfuscation now, I won't be talking about it).

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#55 - 2016-05-17 05:00:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Is there a bead of sweat rolling down your head as you typed that?

I mean, I know your ilk depends heavily on somebody not knowing one little thing and then losing, so you can declare you leetness and all that. I'm not making a pitch for space bushido, but the "anything for a kill" mentality of your type gets tedious.

Even JP does it. Take a careful look at what he's doing during the start of the video

Yeah I know I know, cloakers (and I'm no fan of AFK cloaking) will now that ONE LITTLE THING they can do after they cloak now is go off in some random direction and ..... NOT END UP ON YOUR KILLBOARD!!!! OMG IT'S A NERF CCP CATERS TO CAREBEARS!!!!!!


One little thing can deny ganks... boo hoo.

(I know another trick but since this is all about superiority through obfuscation now, I won't be talking about it).

Sorry, what's my ilk?

People come to the forum for different reasons, including to learn things. The OP for example came here to learn something.

Occasionally people look back through threads. So when there is something in a thread that is wrong about the mechanics like this, it's worth raising the question, so then someone who may read it in the future isn't given a wrong impression of how some things work.

I saw that comment and it immediately stood out as counter to my own understanding, so I went and tested it and found it incorrect. So I asked the question, because maybe I misunderstood what was meant. But I didn't. What Vlad wrote was apparently what he meant, but he misunderstood what the OP wrote.

No skin off anyone's nose. Mistakes happen to everyone.
Valkin Mordirc
#56 - 2016-05-17 05:08:26 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Eve works in one second ticks, so if you have a ship with the same warp speed they will create safe spots in exactly the same place, so it sounds like someone used the same ships and created their safe doing the same thing...

By any chance did you make an attempt to calculate the likelihood of 2 people creating safe spots within 2km of each other before suggesting it?



Dude.

Dracvlad is the only player I know who successfully hunted down and killed an AFK cloaker. His intel capabilities in the background make me eternally glad he's not a merc.

Herzog, if you think what was written is correct, then jump in game and test it.

That's the first thing I did, before replying, when I saw that reply to the OP. It's just factually wrong.



Is there a bead of sweat rolling down your head as you typed that?

I mean, I know your ilk depends heavily on somebody not knowing one little thing and then losing, so you can declare you leetness and all that. I'm not making a pitch for space bushido, but the "anything for a kill" mentality of your type gets tedious.

Even JP does it. Take a careful look at what he's doing during the start of the video

Yeah I know I know, cloakers (and I'm no fan of AFK cloaking) will now that ONE LITTLE THING they can do after they cloak now is go off in some random direction and ..... NOT END UP ON YOUR KILLBOARD!!!! OMG IT'S A NERF CCP CATERS TO CAREBEARS!!!!!!


One little thing can deny ganks... boo hoo.

(I know another trick but since this is all about superiority through obfuscation now, I won't be talking about it).



Holy projection batman,


Dude. Like for realsies.

Calm yer ****.
#DeleteTheWeak
Terquil
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2016-05-17 06:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Terquil
Noone (at least not me) said it wasn't possible to find Safes in between two Celestials. I even do that on Occasion.

BUT

- those were not cloaked
- that safe was between two celestials
- he landed 100km away

It gets considerably harder when

- those ships are cloaked
- that safe is between two Bookmarks (!!!)

It's even worse when those warps are long or you have an old BM of a deep Signature, which would be out of reach for everyone without probes.
Cypherous
Liberty Rogues
Aprilon Dynasty
#58 - 2016-05-17 09:37:10 UTC
etgfrogs wrote:
Without a timer you will log out near instantly in space, so that isn't likely unless the person has a way of forcing someone to disconnect with a push of a button.

The only thing I can think of is someone already had probes down and was tracking the OP before they cloaked. Then they simply screened the area with scan probes so that one would bump them which will deactivate cloak. This sort of thing is less likely to happen in a smaller ship, but in something like a capital with its slow warp speed and large area it can get bumped, I could see it happening.

The last thing I can think of is some type of overview setting that allows scans to see cloaked ship. But that more falls in with tinfoil hat thoughts.


Scan probes do not decloak you, nor do they prevent cloaking
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-05-17 12:21:02 UTC
Ashilta wrote:

Celestial A to Celestial B
Drop bookmark in warp, not at the mid point (too obvious)
Warp to Celestial C
Warp from C to Bookmark <--- this step is wrong and should be skipped
Drop bookmark mid-warp, again not at the mid point
Warp to bookmark 1
Warp to bookmark 2
Drop bookmark mid-warp, again not at the mid point
Bookmark 3 is the 'deep safe'

Using this procedure your bookmark 3 will be on the line between bookmark 1 and celestial C. Actually making bookmark 2 while warping from B to C you get properly misaligned lines.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#60 - 2016-05-17 14:48:14 UTC
etgfrogs wrote:
Without a timer you will log out near instantly in space, so that isn't likely unless the person has a way of forcing someone to disconnect with a push of a button.


This does not explain what I actually observed- twice. My corp mates ship SAT there for about a minute the warped out in a random direction. The first time the ship stayed where it had warped to and it had taken him several minutes to get back on line. The second time he was able to reconnect faster and it warped back to our starting point all by itself and was in mid return warp when his screen came up for him.

Now, I don't know if the reconnect triggers anything, it appeared to in the second instance or the timing was just remarkable coincidence. It's possible there are some hidden timers at play here.

What was really cool is that it pulled in his drones for him too. That's pretty smart behavior. Good job CCP. A better solution would be to warp to a friendly station and dock automatically, but the random location isn't hideous for HiSec either.