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I'm calling out the Dev's making changes to WH's

Author
Pinkylein
No Vacancies
Wardec Mechanics
#21 - 2016-04-18 11:11:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinkylein
I've seen alot of people really complaining about the upcoming citadel changes, regarding to wh-space and i don't really see why, since all arguments that brought up are already valid today.

I got the feeling alot of people that are complainin were not part of an eviction or were not evicted yet, but just have knowledge about it by reading.

First: If a corp wants to evict you. They will succeed, no matter if you have a citadel, one POS, 15 POS's, and so on. Their preperation is all that matters and if they prepare good, have valid information about you, they will come, pre- or post-citadel expansion.

Second: As alot of people stated, right now the time of beeing evicted is way more straight and unpredictable then it will be with citadels. Right now the attackers have the upper hand by deciding when they want to come. If you're not at home, as at work, beeing one week on vacation with your family and cannot check for anything, they come, set it into RF and you cannot do **** about it. You will be able to get your ships out ... at least out of the SMA; but everything else is already lost or unreachable, unless they make a major mistake when the tower comes out of RF and they don't attack anymore.

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers. So the forces that are currently needed are way smaller, so even smaller gangs could possibly attack most towers in most systems. Most people don't set up huge deathstar-towers and some don't have any defenses at all. The citadel already comes with a pre-defined slot layout that cries for "give me weapons".

And yeah ... that actually is everything. Not to mention what many said ... you can set your invul-timer, stuff would be lost already right now and 48h >> 36-or-something-hours that are currently needed til you can end the presence of the victims-tower.


All the other things. Seriously. Rolling wormholes with that mass/distance thing. If you still roll with an orca ... sorry thats outdated by now, almost nobody is doing it, unless they bait others into a fleet that is waiting cloaked. Battleships even 13km away spawning with an MWD can usually get back very fast, or with higgs, can warp in almost no time. AND even if you manage to jump back ... if someone is waiting for you on either one or the other site and the wh is not verge or won't close, they just follow and scram you on the site, whereever you will be and kill you. 0 km or 20km would not make a difference. And even though i never made it and i just saw it ONE time, many ppl use yachts, as they are (as long as not beeing changed) really hard to catch.

And wh-mass. Also stated, supers won't come into wh's, wh mass increase only to have possible 1-2 normal caps that can change between LS/NS/C6/C5 ...

All those things affect everyone in the same way. The one that did not get affected yet, won't get affected as well when citadels come out. And only the least part will see a change. And that will be the ones that YES live in a c5 or c6 only there for ratting with 5 people. But if you could not defend your wormhole in a proper way before patch, why should it be easier after that.


Pinky
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#22 - 2016-04-18 11:29:19 UTC
Pinkylein wrote:

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers.


I was with you 100% up until this point. If someone wants you out, there's not a chance in hell to stop them if you are a small corp. But WILL citadels be more powerful that a POS? I mean, a well setup large tower with ECMs coming out the wazoo, plus tons of guns, and then masses of offline backups and we're looking at a right pain in the *** to attack. It still seems vague about citadels, and just how they'll fair up in comparison to that.

Personally, I think the added benefit of Citadels dropping all the shiny loots in Wh-space will highly encourage the random destruction of citadels. I only hope CCP gives them, at the very least, the sort of annoying difficulty that we currently find with well setup large POS. Otherwise, the last true place left in all of new eden that holds the potential for small corps to claim a tiny sliver of space will be lost forever.

That would suck! Sad

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  

Pinkylein
No Vacancies
Wardec Mechanics
#23 - 2016-04-18 11:47:44 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Pinkylein wrote:

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers.


I was with you 100% up until this point. If someone wants you out, there's not a chance in hell to stop them if you are a small corp. But WILL citadels be more powerful that a POS? I mean, a well setup large tower with ECMs coming out the wazoo, plus tons of guns, and then masses of offline backups and we're looking at a right pain in the *** to attack. It still seems vague about citadels, and just how they'll fair up in comparison to that.

Personally, I think the added benefit of Citadels dropping all the shiny loots in Wh-space will highly encourage the random destruction of citadels. I only hope CCP gives them, at the very least, the sort of annoying difficulty that we currently find with well setup large POS. Otherwise, the last true place left in all of new eden that holds the potential for small corps to claim a tiny sliver of space will be lost forever.

That would suck! Sad


Well ... but lets assume DPS is higher or lower, or equal to current POS's. If someone attacks you, they thought about it before, what they can expect. If they manage to attack a death-star-like POS, with tons of backup modules, and even active people inside, but still limited CPU/PG as they can just bring stuff online when others is gone, AND also effects around the wormhole and the tower itself, they probably brought enough guardians, long-range stuff or can trick the tower by running enough small-sized ships with high velocity that pos guns will never hit. So whatever such a group is about to face that is about to evict you, they adapt to the situation. And the same will come to citadels.

And i still don't see the "everything's lost"-part. What is the difference to now? Will you have MORE stuff in the citadels that can drop? More ships then in your current SMA? More modules in your CHA? ... If people blow up your SMA, they get all your ships and for you everything is lost, same goes for CHA, PHA, all arrays around ... cans, freight containers. In short terms ... If they win, you loose ... and they get all that stuff. WHY ... should it be different in a citadel?
Alundil
Rolled Out
#24 - 2016-04-19 22:46:54 UTC
RemSalak wrote:

So many tears in this quote that my LCD monitor got soggy just displaying it


It's been a while since I've posted so I might be slightly rusty but here goes

First of all - your formatting is horrid
WTF is wrong with you ?

On to the meat of your...ahem...arguments


  1. Streamlining probing - It has long been argued that the scanning changes begun in Odyssey (and continued iteratively ever since) has made scanning easier and faster. Furthermore, that those changes have reduced the learned "skill" of scanning quickly. There isn't a lot to argue with on that point. Scanning is easier and faster and requires less practice to be proficient at. This has created a number of issues over the years, not least of which is a massive reduction in profit potential of exploration as a career. However, that ship sailed long ago and has literally nothing to do with Citadels or any other recent patch/expansion.

  2. Ore sites as warpable anomalies - This goes into the same general bucket we, in wspace, have been harping on for years. This reduced the number of pilots mining ore in wspace overnight. Mining is dull as hell and a low profit margin activity to begin with. Miners aren't stupid (potentially missing out on other more engaging forms of gameplay but it's their game time/money) and don't willingly subject themselves to increased risk "just because". I have no idea what you think "blob groups" have to do with this change. They neither benefit or suffer from this. Ultimately, it's a change that CCP decided to make and they have (or don't have) the stats to show whether this was a positive change or not regardless of your (or anyone else's) rage-post about it being "The End of the World as We Know It".

  3. More connections - This change is a good change for everyone in wpsace other than farmers. The End. Farming is the only activity routinely needing closed or crit holes. This is due to many reasons. But all of them are cowardly and anathema to wspace as "The Most Dangerous (and also Lucrative) Place in New Eden". Even as a small group in wspace more connections are a BOBsend since those are additional connections that YOU could find things to do in. Unless you can't be bothered to fly out of your POS unless it's site running time. And your crying about needing to scan.....IDGI (where's the Jackie Chan confused meme-face when you REALLY need it). You should feel ashamed for whinging on about this.

  4. Increased spawn distances - Another change brought in with Odyssey (or was it Hyperion?). This was another changed argued for and against all over this forum. I was one of the many against it. I still am and think it was implemented incorrectly (backwards at the very least). However, this doesn't really inherently support blob groups either. What it does (at least on paper) support are groups with numbers to actually support the caps that they might use to roll holes. Again, the groups that were most vehemently teary-eyed over this......were farmers who, by definition, don't have the numbers to support rolling caps if the stuff hit the fan. Boo hoo... Higs battleships and rollling Yachts and T3s made these this almost a moot point either way.
  5. Citadels and asset safety - this was one of the best parts of the Citadel announcement. That wspace (that dangerous etc etc etc yada yada place) wouldn't become an even safer place by magically whisking people things to safety if they were bad, naughty or unlucky. That is Bob's Will. It Shall Be Done. (In other words, deal with the fact that your stuff might disappear and plan/play better/smarter or move out).


The remainder of your rant is, I have to imagine, the Quafe-fueled dreams of a madman served with a healthy chaser of nanoribbon. Because player counts are up lately (if you haven't noticed) with Eve breaching the 40k online (sorry mittens) PCU for the first time in over a year. There are more than one large WH Alliance and there are several other single corps that are almost as large (or larger) and even some smaller corps that punch way above their weight-class (looking at you HEATD). So your cries amount to nothing more than that. Cries. From someone who has failed to adapt to what should be the harshest and most difficult place to live and play in Eve. But no, you're not done. You following this blisteringly obtuse missive with further tinfoil laced fodder about CSM reps playing things for their large wspace group(s) (BTW - which wspace CSM has a large WH Alliance these days? Not corbexx (waves - hi buddy) and not Chance (RIP wingspan alliance). Noobman isn't in....yet? So you got nothing at this point on that point. And then we get to the "Eve Killer" Jamie Lannister.....I mean Star Citizen...... Sheesh if it ever gets released in a playable state with battles of more than 50v50 Eve might need to worry. But that's about as likely as SC meeting its stretch goals on time (hint: they won't).

I'm right behind you

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#25 - 2016-04-20 01:01:00 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Pinkylein wrote:

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers.


I was with you 100% up until this point. If someone wants you out, there's not a chance in hell to stop them if you are a small corp. But WILL citadels be more powerful that a POS? I mean, a well setup large tower with ECMs coming out the wazoo, plus tons of guns, and then masses of offline backups and we're looking at a right pain in the *** to attack. It still seems vague about citadels, and just how they'll fair up in comparison to that.

Personally, I think the added benefit of Citadels dropping all the shiny loots in Wh-space will highly encourage the random destruction of citadels. I only hope CCP gives them, at the very least, the sort of annoying difficulty that we currently find with well setup large POS. Otherwise, the last true place left in all of new eden that holds the potential for small corps to claim a tiny sliver of space will be lost forever.

That would suck! Sad


You guys are such nubs. Your Deathstar POS with tons of backups is horribly vulnerable if unmanned (and, who attacks manned defenses for evictions anyway?). All you need to do is use Trashct Doctrine and it doesn't really matter what your defenses are- deathstar, dickstar, dullstar, dampstar*...it's all going down.

The advantage of Trashcats is, you just attack the stick and ignore the "defenses". This lets you not only attack in utter and hilarious safety, but lets you avoid RFing all the guns and dissy's and EWAR modules. You can take a fully kitted out deathstar with 4 BS and 2 Guards (and 40 tractors).

Your masses and masses of offline guns? Worthless to prevent a RF that doesn't suit you. Midweek 2 a.m. your time sucks. Plus, the more guns you have anchored ready to go, the bigger the loot pinata.

Citadels, because they are only vulnerable when you want them to be, and the guns don't work without human intervention, are going to be much more dangerous than an unmanned POS. Additionally, if the Medium is circa 650M it's not much more expensive than a tricked out large POS at the moment. So as long as you keep your loot pile under reasonable control, it's a major step forward in loot security and cost effectiveness for all corporations.

Finally, the number of people who understand POS mechanics well is....very small. If you haven't grokked Trashcats, you haven't grokked why you want citadels. Its terribly broken, I admit, and I wubs them, but....


* - caveat. if you have 80 sensor damps online, things can get skwerly for an attacker, even with Trashcats. But a 24 ECM dickstar? EZPZ.
Selene Eltar
Star Freaks
#26 - 2016-04-21 04:18:04 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Pinkylein wrote:

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers.


I was with you 100% up until this point. If someone wants you out, there's not a chance in hell to stop them if you are a small corp. But WILL citadels be more powerful that a POS? I mean, a well setup large tower with ECMs coming out the wazoo, plus tons of guns, and then masses of offline backups and we're looking at a right pain in the *** to attack. It still seems vague about citadels, and just how they'll fair up in comparison to that.

Personally, I think the added benefit of Citadels dropping all the shiny loots in Wh-space will highly encourage the random destruction of citadels. I only hope CCP gives them, at the very least, the sort of annoying difficulty that we currently find with well setup large POS. Otherwise, the last true place left in all of new eden that holds the potential for small corps to claim a tiny sliver of space will be lost forever.

That would suck! Sad


So, I've been doing some pretty exhaustive testing in SISI.

Yes, Citadels (at least the Fortizar and Keepstar) are WAY more powerful than a large deathstar POS.

For one, they can fit AoE weapons (guided bombs) and can launch fighters and fighter bombers. Think a Deathstar mixed with a couple bombers and a Nyx. Keepstars, for instance, can fire a doomsday that can alpha an ubertanked dread. It can do that every 10 minutes.

Plus, there's a DPS limit. You can only do 15K DPS to a Fortizar and 75K DPS to a Keepstar when they're vulnerable.

So all in all, you would need a very large fleet (for w-space) to even think about taking one out. And yes, if someone wants you out of a hole, it will just take them longer.
Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#27 - 2016-05-12 17:43:25 UTC
The biggest lost opportunity for CCP was to not make all the small frigate wormholes originate in shattered systems
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
#28 - 2016-05-12 19:40:02 UTC
Selene Eltar wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
Pinkylein wrote:

Third: I will be honest, i did not check on detail on the upcoming defense stats on citadels, but it sounds like the DPS and possible ewar that comes from a citadel is way more threatening, then most POS-guns/ecm/webs i have seen around most of the towers.


I was with you 100% up until this point. If someone wants you out, there's not a chance in hell to stop them if you are a small corp. But WILL citadels be more powerful that a POS? I mean, a well setup large tower with ECMs coming out the wazoo, plus tons of guns, and then masses of offline backups and we're looking at a right pain in the *** to attack. It still seems vague about citadels, and just how they'll fair up in comparison to that.

Personally, I think the added benefit of Citadels dropping all the shiny loots in Wh-space will highly encourage the random destruction of citadels. I only hope CCP gives them, at the very least, the sort of annoying difficulty that we currently find with well setup large POS. Otherwise, the last true place left in all of new eden that holds the potential for small corps to claim a tiny sliver of space will be lost forever.

That would suck! Sad


So, I've been doing some pretty exhaustive testing in SISI.

Yes, Citadels (at least the Fortizar and Keepstar) are WAY more powerful than a large deathstar POS.

For one, they can fit AoE weapons (guided bombs) and can launch fighters and fighter bombers. Think a Deathstar mixed with a couple bombers and a Nyx. Keepstars, for instance, can fire a doomsday that can alpha an ubertanked dread. It can do that every 10 minutes.

Plus, there's a DPS limit. You can only do 15K DPS to a Fortizar and 75K DPS to a Keepstar when they're vulnerable.

So all in all, you would need a very large fleet (for w-space) to even think about taking one out. And yes, if someone wants you out of a hole, it will just take them longer.

That's the real problem here. The most affordable citadel, at 1.2bil isk for the hull at current market prices, sucks in comparison to a cheaper, faction fit, large tower when it comes to deterence. A properly fit Astrahus is in the 5bil range and it can't hit subcaps for nothing even if it's life depends on it.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#29 - 2016-05-13 03:10:53 UTC
Pinkylein wrote:
Second: As alot of people stated, right now the time of being evicted is way more straight and unpredictable then it will be with citadels.

Is there a change in the profit motive for attacking/evicting someone with the citadel release?

Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#30 - 2016-05-13 13:45:21 UTC
The pvp corps have been vocal on what they want. The industry and bear corps have been silent.

The net result is a more pvp friendly environment. I will agree we tend to be driving easier prey out.

As long as we don't end up with wormholes showing up as anoms.. should keep the fleet sizes manageable.
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2016-05-13 18:50:45 UTC
Let's clarify the ops point. Because why not.

The issue is that citadels are vulnerable and warrant attack, vs the current pos system setup.

People don't like shooting pos's because of.. Two reasons. The first is the pos shield itself. This removes the capability of close range ammo from hitting it (no blaster talos, etc)

The other is that pos's take a bigger beating. A small gang can attack a citadel and win. A small gang isn't killing a pos without a dread dropping on it for times sake.

This will hurt small gangs a ton in Wspace because small gangs would generally range around 3 to 6 a night, not 30 to 50 a night. It's just easier to siege a citadel than it is a pos.

Now Wspace don't like pos's. We hate setting them up, managing them, assigning roles, etc. we generally don't like citadels because of their vulnerability to virtually any fleet setup. Have a few guns and 3 logi, go siege a citadel and generate a fight. That's the intial thought but for defense purposes, this will create more mega groups and alliances in Wspace. This also gives the pvp people easy pve fodder to evict... Potentially that is as a bunch are moving out.

Expect more people to leave Wspace when t3's go under the knife. Pve will die a pretty violent death unless those pve entities are under the protection of a pvp entity, and that won't realistically work out well due to how Wspace is setup.

Is it worth running a pve Corp in Wspace and anchoring a citadel with as they have no deterrent power themselves.....

That's the question.

Yaay!!!!

Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#32 - 2016-05-15 02:35:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Som Boty
I'm a solo wh sweller, with the current wh dynamics and citadel mechanics I won't be replacing my POS with a citadel anytime soon. I mean ****, I don't even have guns on one of my POS for the last three weeks and its STILL better than a citadel.
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2016-05-15 23:54:29 UTC
RemSalak wrote:

- Streamlining probing to track ships down faster(this works for everyone but is most useful in a WH environment)
- Making Ore sites in WH's automatically warpable instead of having to scan them down(Blob groups don't mine Ores in WH space)
- Making wormholes open only AFTER someone has jumped through.(allowing Blob groups to amass in full readyness for a gank)
- Adding extra static's and making WH's appear more often in all WH space(Again, for the blobs to search out more targets since small groups can't be bothered with all the scanning involved)...


WH space is not for you. You should get (back) to nullsec. There you even have a local to be more safe.
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#34 - 2016-05-16 05:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Som Boty
Ni Neith wrote:
RemSalak wrote:

- Streamlining probing to track ships down faster(this works for everyone but is most useful in a WH environment)
- Making Ore sites in WH's automatically warpable instead of having to scan them down(Blob groups don't mine Ores in WH space)
- Making wormholes open only AFTER someone has jumped through.(allowing Blob groups to amass in full readyness for a gank)
- Adding extra static's and making WH's appear more often in all WH space(Again, for the blobs to search out more targets since small groups can't be bothered with all the scanning involved)...


WH space is not for you. You should get (back) to nullsec. There you even have a local to be more safe.



Says the guy hiding behind a forum alt.
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2016-05-16 08:13:47 UTC
Som Boty wrote:
[quote=Ni Neith]

Says the guy hiding behind a forum alt.


Have you a problem with that?
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2016-05-16 08:17:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ni Neith
Som Boty wrote:


Says the guy hiding behind a forum alt.


Have you a problem with that?


Som Boty wrote:
I'm a solo wh sweller, with the current wh dynamics and citadel mechanics I won't be replacing my POS with a citadel anytime soon. I mean ****, I don't even have guns on one of my POS for the last three weeks and its STILL better than a citadel.


Try to be a solo nullsec or lowsec dweller (your own pos, citadel) and then you come back and complain.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2016-05-16 09:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
edit. I must learn to behave...

They are BOB's flock in need of a shephard.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |

Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2016-05-16 15:43:42 UTC
There are problems in wh space, however OP has not outlined any of them ;D
Som Boty
Super Mother Fan Club
#39 - 2016-05-17 00:15:39 UTC
Ni Neith wrote:
Som Boty wrote:


Says the guy hiding behind a forum alt.


Have you a problem with that?


Som Boty wrote:
I'm a solo wh sweller, with the current wh dynamics and citadel mechanics I won't be replacing my POS with a citadel anytime soon. I mean ****, I don't even have guns on one of my POS for the last three weeks and its STILL better than a citadel.


Try to be a solo nullsec or lowsec dweller (your own pos, citadel) and then you come back and complain.



I've been playing for almost 13 years... I used to run reactions in low sec. What's your point?
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2016-05-17 10:17:54 UTC
Som Boty wrote:

I've been playing for almost 13 years... I used to run reactions in low sec. What's your point?

Solo pos from some one man corp in lowsec? Give me a break please. My point is that you still can be solo in WHs and krab like a mad man while you can't do it any where else in hostile space.
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