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RIP SMALL GANG PVP

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Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#21 - 2016-05-07 12:30:54 UTC
I've not done much small gang stuff involving carriers since the citadel changes, but can you not simply kill the fighters? I would have thought sub caps would excel at killing them pretty effectively leaving the carrier with no DPS.

The current carriers are surely far better than the fleets of spider tanking carriers of the previous era.
Marin Lunaire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-05-07 12:33:04 UTC
Max Fubarticus wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
if only there was a chance to test this new things (including the carriers) in a test server for us to be able to give our feedback/comments so that CCP might have changed it before it became live. Roll

nobody is omnipotent and the new features for the carrier is ok for cap fights which i guess is what they want to do.

so, stop QQing, nobody gave CCP the feedback they require therefore they didn't do anything. suck it up, post on the appropriate thread and wait.



They were available for testing on sisi and feedback was given. The carrier is not omnipotent. It CAN be taken down by a small gang. You just have to figure it out. Tactics have changed. Move along folks, nothing to see here.

Max


The problem is that the test Server is disproportionately populated with cap pilots. This created the very bias that made this change possible. let me say it again: carriers create no-fly zones for small gangs and solo pilots. Now think about the word no-fly zone for a second or maybe a little longer and think about how this will effect EVE. No-fly zone. Get it?
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#23 - 2016-05-07 12:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: MidnightWyvern
Dracvlad wrote:
Carriers needed this, yes you won't be able to take one down easy, you now have a challenge. This brings a whole new style of gameplay to Eve the way fighters are now implemented and I just went mad doing a max out training plan for carrier and fighter skills. But knowing my luck CCP will decide to nerf them because of people whining just as I get max skills...

Hopefully they ignore the whining the same way they ignored all those threads demanding they remove Aegis Sov and go back to the Dominion model.
Marin Lunaire wrote:
Negating each and every subcap piloting tactic by creating carrier no fly zones is such an obvious terrible idea that i'm seriously puzzled how this went through. This is not engaging gameplay. The counter to massive ships should always be speed as in: Fast things outrun fighters.

Yeah, that's similar to how it used to be where a single frigate could grab a carrier and hold it permanently. Have you ever considered how non-engaging it is for the person flying the carrier who is now a helpless sitting duck just because the frigate that grabbed him can fly really fast?

Part of the reason we now have the Heavy Stasis Grappler is because this bullshit of "GOTTA GO FAST" being an I-win-button was severely hampering the survivability of anything above Cruiser size.

I would suggest re-examining your tactics and finding a new way to counter fighters. They may be powerful but they aren't completely without counters, after all. You realize you can jam an entire squadron of them with one ECM? Fit 5 T1 ECM on a Griffin and you've instantly negated ALL of the carrier's damage output. That's at least the way it was on Singularity, and I didn't see anything about them changing that.
Marin Lunaire wrote:

The problem is that the test Server is disproportionately populated with cap pilots. This created the very bias that made this change possible. let me say it again: carriers create no-fly zones for small gangs and solo pilots. Now think about the word no-fly zone for a second or maybe a little longer and think about how this will effect EVE. No-fly zone. Get it?

Repeating that phrase over and over isn't going to change reality, man.

Part of why they run Mass Tests on Singularity is it incentivizes players at all levels of the game to hop on and try out the new changes. As well, just because you warped to CA1 and got blapped by a tracking Dread does not mean the only people who use that server are Cap pilots. Yeah, there are many of them, but there are an equal number of sub-cap pilots flying around.

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
Marin Lunaire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2016-05-07 13:53:09 UTC
MidnightWyvern wrote:
Yeah, that's similar to how it used to be where a single frigate could grab a carrier and hold it permanently. Have you ever considered how non-engaging it is for the person flying the carrier who is now a helpless sitting duck just because the frigate that grabbed him can fly really fast?

Part of the reason we now have the Heavy Stasis Grappler is because this bullshit of "GOTTA GO FAST" being an I-win-button was severely hampering the survivability of anything above Cruiser size.



Kiting takes a lot of skill and is far from being an i-win button. Look i'm not saying that carriers shoudl get killed or held down infinitely by frigs. Give them a bonus to light drones for stuff that tackels them -fine with me. 10k m/s fighters with insane tracking which just volley you off the field are a gamebreaker for a whole style of gameplay tho. If small mobile attacking gangs which are willing to take on the enemy in his own backyard are forced to sacrifice several of their sparse pilot slots for boring jamboats to counter carriers they won't roam there at all. That's just how it works. Killing one playstyle to buff another is bad and negating andy piloting tactics is bad aswell. There are ways to make carrier pilots and small gang/solo pilots happy and such a solution would be good for the game in the long run.


MidnightWyvern wrote:
Yeah, there are many of them, but there are an equal number of sub-cap pilots flying around.


Still the cap/subcap pilot ratio is vastly disproportional compared to tq. Meaning: Cap pilots are vastly overrepresented. That's just fact. Listen I don't want your carriers to be sitting ducks or anything but 10k m/s fighters which just volley frigs of the field are insanely op. Give people who like to fly smaller hulls some room to maneuver. Literally.
Thomas Lot
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-05-07 13:59:13 UTC
Marin Lunaire wrote:
Negating each and every subcap piloting tactic by creating carrier no fly zones is such an obvious terrible idea that i'm seriously puzzled how this went through. This is not engaging gameplay. The counter to massive ships should always be speed as in: Fast things outrun fighters.



The fighters ARE the fast things. No one is going to outrun fighters, nor should they be able to. I've dunked carriers before and laughed at how easy it was. Hell I was even on the KM on a couple when flying a Skiff.

Carriers are finally working correctly.
Marin Lunaire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-05-07 14:10:20 UTC
Thomas Lot wrote:
Marin Lunaire wrote:
Negating each and every subcap piloting tactic by creating carrier no fly zones is such an obvious terrible idea that i'm seriously puzzled how this went through. This is not engaging gameplay. The counter to massive ships should always be speed as in: Fast things outrun fighters.



The fighters ARE the fast things. No one is going to outrun fighters, nor should they be able to. I've dunked carriers before and laughed at how easy it was. Hell I was even on the KM on a couple when flying a Skiff.

Carriers are finally working correctly.


Look, this is an mmo. While in reality carriers might be the ultimate weapon in Eve Online virtuality 10k m/s supertracking fighters which apply carrier damage to frigs anihilate a whole style of gameplay. As it is this change dumps down pvp as a whole and it would be in our all best intrest to reach a balanced compromise. For instance: Give Carriers a Bonus to drone hp and damage but let fighters miss small stuff. That way the carrier pilot had to chose the correct tool and smaller hull pilots had time to even react.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#27 - 2016-05-07 14:17:40 UTC
I've really only been primaried by a carrier one time and it was on an undock. I was able to tank him in a cruiser long enough to lose my aggression timer and redock. If carriers are killing s*** now, good for them. They should be.

Daemun of Khanid
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-05-07 14:40:42 UTC
I fully agree with you mate. I was out in Lowsec like 10 hours ago shooting a Cynabal who was solo in my prophecy (I was solo too) After he killed all my drones and I neuted his capacitor to zero neither of us could break the other so we just sorta warped off like
"awkward..."

Either way I'm not sure where the small gangs have gone but it's been a boon to my solo career!
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#29 - 2016-05-07 15:35:33 UTC
Drones going over 10000kmps and hit with tracking of a frigate seems fair and balanced..
MidnightWyvern
Fukamichi Corporation
SAYR Galactic
#30 - 2016-05-07 17:12:47 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:
Drones going over 10000kmps and hit with tracking of a frigate seems fair and balanced..

So does ludicrous hyperbole about Fighter capability.

So far we're getting claims that nothing in the entire game can outrun them, they instantly kill everything they shoot, and you can somehow be locked up and destroyed before burning back to the gate in an MWD Frigate, which generally takes less than 3 seconds.

Seriously, guys?

Rattati Senpai noticed us! See you in the next FPS!

Alts: Saray Wyvern, Mobius Wyvern (Dust 514)
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2016-05-07 17:15:30 UTC
Sustrai Aditua wrote:
One well-aimed torpedo fired from one submarine can take out a carrier.
That's why carriers float around in the "carrier task force".
Google is your friend.

PS Putting all our eggs in one basket is using fozzie-thinking...or was that fuzzy logic?


That sub Will be sunk by the aircraft's miles away from the task force.

Next time you read something on google, read the whole thing.

Been around since the beginning.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#32 - 2016-05-07 17:57:00 UTC
d0cTeR9 wrote:
Sustrai Aditua wrote:
One well-aimed torpedo fired from one submarine can take out a carrier.
That's why carriers float around in the "carrier task force".
Google is your friend.

PS Putting all our eggs in one basket is using fozzie-thinking...or was that fuzzy logic?


That sub Will be sunk by the aircraft's miles away from the task force.

Next time you read something on google, read the whole thing.


Most modern subs are too quiet to be detected by said task force until its far too late. There hasnt been a naval conflict w modern sub warfare aside from the Falklands and that was incredibly one sided. The day it happens again there will be deaths and destruction among the navies unlike anything in the past. (10 years experience in sonar so I have a pretty good idea)

Irrelevant though in regards to OP. RL fleets are, unlike EvE, in no way designed to be fair or balanced.

Daemun of Khanid
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#33 - 2016-05-07 19:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Jefferson
maCH'EttE wrote:
Drones going over 10000kmps and hit with tracking of a frigate seems fair and balanced..


MidnightWyvern wrote:
I would suggest re-examining your tactics and finding a new way to counter fighters. They may be powerful but they aren't completely without counters, after all. You realize you can jam an entire squadron of them with one ECM? Fit 5 T1 ECM on a Griffin and you've instantly negated ALL of the carrier's damage output. That's at least the way it was on Singularity, and I didn't see anything about them changing that.


It's small gang. Most consider it a better, healthier environment when every sort of ship has counters, and every sort of ship brings something else unique to the gang. MidnightWyvern is correct; carriers can be absolutely humbled by ECM these days. Maybe it's not perfectly balanced, but if you engage a carrier without an ECM boat, you sort of deserve what is coming to you. Certainly in a gang of say, 7 or 8, you can afford a griffin or something similar as an ewar choice. They are far more balanced now than they were in the days of boots/pantheon/slowcats.

Honestly I have to give props to CCP. Many of the recent changes have really freshened up the environment.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2016-05-07 20:52:56 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
maCH'EttE wrote:
Drones going over 10000kmps and hit with tracking of a frigate seems fair and balanced..


MidnightWyvern wrote:
I would suggest re-examining your tactics and finding a new way to counter fighters. They may be powerful but they aren't completely without counters, after all. You realize you can jam an entire squadron of them with one ECM? Fit 5 T1 ECM on a Griffin and you've instantly negated ALL of the carrier's damage output. That's at least the way it was on Singularity, and I didn't see anything about them changing that.


It's small gang. Most consider it a better, healthier environment when every sort of ship has counters, and every sort of ship brings something else unique to the gang. MidnightWyvern is correct; carriers can be absolutely humbled by ECM these days. Maybe it's not perfectly balanced, but if you engage a carrier without an ECM boat, you sort of deserve what is coming to you. Certainly in a gang of say, 7 or 8, you can afford a griffin or something similar as an ewar choice. They are far more balanced now than they were in the days of boots/pantheon/slowcats.

Honestly I have to give props to CCP. Many of the recent changes have really freshened up the environment.

Done that tried that, trust me, they are overpowered, its simple as that.
Scruffled
#35 - 2016-05-07 21:30:23 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:
CCP, you know your buff to carriers and fighters are broken right!
Like seriously, you cant be this dumb and one sides.
Buff to carriers(Fighters going over 10km, 2.3km with out the micro, perfect tracking, insane dps and volley), the upcoming link changes, and just the changes over the pasty year or to, have f**** small gang to the ground.
THanks foziee d*bag.


Escalate or stay away from caps. End of discussion.
ISD Fractal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#36 - 2016-05-07 22:55:39 UTC
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