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True Amarr, Udorians, and the Chosen—A Theological Question

Author
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#1 - 2016-05-06 09:26:42 UTC
In the Name of Light


When the Tash-Murkon Family was made a royal family following the Glorious Revolution of His Majesty King Khanid II, not few considered the elevation of a family of Udorian ancestry blasphemous. Further questioning the dogma that only True Amarr are among the chosen, the succession of an Udorian holder—descending from slaves—to rule the Empire founded by the Lord’s Command and to “cultivate the spirit of man” (Book I 1:14) has until then only remained a theoretical possibility. Many believed that the Lord would not permit a champion to win, for it would provide irrefutable truth: The elevation of the Tash-Murkon Family was by His Will. Of course, this argument holds only true if one accepts the so called “Moral Reforms.”

Volumes of exegesis have been written about those parts of the Scriptures elaborating the True Amarr’s claim to superiority and acting as the Lord’s chosen agents (cf. Book I 1:4, Book of Reclaiming 3:19-3:21, 4:45, Gheinok the First 1:32, Saint Junip 15:11, Second Letter of St. Junip of Aerui, Prophet Anoyia 17:21, Anoyia’s Exhortation to the Faithful etc.).

Now I ask those proclaiming the superiority of the True Amarr: How do you maintain your position? Is it selection or servitude in the name of the Lord that makes you a True Amarr?

By His Light and His Will!
Odelya d’Hanguest, Begum of Palas etc. pp.
Lady High Chancellor of the Royal Khanid Capsuleer Council
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#2 - 2016-05-06 10:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashlar Vellum
It is difficult to consider Udorian ancestry blasphemous when there were already a none true-amarr family amongst royal houses named Khanid, it is also good to remember that Udorians as Khanid are both from the same planet and were reclaimed by the True-Amarr before they became a part of great Amarr Empire.
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#3 - 2016-05-06 10:23:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Odelya d'Hanguest
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
It is difficult to consider Udorian ancestry blasphemous when there were already a none true-amarr family amongst royal houses named Khanid, it is also good to remember that Udorians as Khanid are both from the same planet and were reclaimed by the True-Amarr before they became a part of great Amarr Empire.

Where did you receive your commission, Lieutenant Vellum? Although it is a common misconception, it does not become true: The noble House of Khanid is of True Amarr descent. That said: The Khanid—with a few exceptions—never were slaves, but embraced the faith voluntarily. That cannot be said entirely about the Udorians.
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#4 - 2016-05-06 10:50:28 UTC
Familial ties to orders of superiority are in regards to safe housing and margins for error during peace keeping missions gone wrong.

Freed Slaves represent superiority. Doctrines in regards to keeping slaves ritualistically were discerned too enigmatic in relation to God's Will concerning them.

The time it took to turn slaves, who are local sentience within ones realm of influence; into God fearing human beings was problematic.

There were a lot of fizzles due to that.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#5 - 2016-05-06 10:51:55 UTC
I'm not sure what point it is you're trying to make here ?

The True Amarr position of First amongst the Chosen has always been because unlike the other races of Men, the True Amarr remained Righteous and True to Scripture throughout history.

And while other races such as Udorians may, through long righteous service, become Chosen, because of their spirit being cultivated to remove the stain of blasphemy, this doesn't really alter that position.

A righteous Chosen Udorian, would still be a Chosen, but they wouldn't be First amongst the Chosen, because they're not True Amarr.

I'm really not sure how you are having trouble with this. Do they not teach such things in the finishing schools for young ladies in the Khanid petty Kingdom ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-05-06 11:21:01 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
I'm not sure what point it is you're trying to make here ?

The True Amarr position of First amongst the Chosen has always been because unlike the other races of Men, the True Amarr remained Righteous and True to Scripture throughout history.

And while other races such as Udorians may, through long righteous service, become Chosen, because of their spirit being cultivated to remove the stain of blasphemy, this doesn't really alter that position.

A righteous Chosen Udorian, would still be a Chosen, but they wouldn't be First amongst the Chosen, because they're not True Amarr.

I'm really not sure how you are having trouble with this. Do they not teach such things in the finishing schools for young ladies in the Khanid petty Kingdom ?




Then I wait for the glorious day when the Empire is led by a Reclaimed Matari. Or Gallente.

I don't think my cousin exactly has "trouble" with this. Rather, I think she means to point out that the so-called "True Amarr" aren't quite as special in God's eyes as they've been lead to believe? It's rather difficult to be arrogant when you're taking orders from the help, no?

Additionally, it would indicate that maybe He is not as pleased with the so-called "moral reforms" as we've been lead to believe. Perhaps our new Udorian Empress will make some new reforms?


"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#7 - 2016-05-06 11:36:14 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
I don't think my cousin exactly has "trouble" with this. Rather, I think she means to point out that the so-called "True Amarr" aren't quite as special in God's eyes as they've been lead to believe? It's rather difficult to be arrogant when you're taking orders from the help, no?


I shall point out, that the Amarr Navy, and the Royal Khanid Navy, both have Ni-Kunni grand admirals, which doesn't seem to be a problem for the True Amarr officers there.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#8 - 2016-05-06 11:48:11 UTC
Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
It is difficult to consider Udorian ancestry blasphemous when there were already a none true-amarr family amongst royal houses named Khanid, it is also good to remember that Udorians as Khanid are both from the same planet and were reclaimed by the True-Amarr before they became a part of great Amarr Empire.

Were did you receive your commission, Lieutenant Vellum? Although it is a common misconception, it does not become true: The noble House of Khanid is of True Amarr descent. That said: The Khanid—with a few exceptions—never were slaves, but embraced the faith voluntarily. That cannot be said entirely about the Udorian.

Indeed, I was wrong about True Amarr descent. I do have a question, about newly elected Duke Farokh Khanid and Zidarez Tol-Jikar, will their children be considered of True Amarr descent?

About the reclaiming: "never were" does not imply "exceptions", it's either never or were.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2016-05-06 12:03:56 UTC
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
About the reclaiming: "never were" does not imply "exceptions", it's either never or were.


Um, respectfully, if I understand correctly, even True Amarr are occasionally made slaves (because of some failing or other, such as criminal acts).

A few Khanid were at one time enslaved during the original Reclaiming for whatever reason, but most never were. Apparently as a society they were close enough with the Amarr that they just sort of got gathered up into the Empire without a fuss.

I sometimes hear some Amarr speaking of maybe bringing the Caldari into the Empire the same way. I'm a little unsure that that will play out the way they hope.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#10 - 2016-05-06 12:52:10 UTC
Spirits below I'd pay good money to see them try that one.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#11 - 2016-05-06 14:23:18 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
About the reclaiming: "never were" does not imply "exceptions", it's either never or were.


Um, respectfully, if I understand correctly, even True Amarr are occasionally made slaves (because of some failing or other, such as criminal acts).

A few Khanid were at one time enslaved during the original Reclaiming for whatever reason, but most never were. Apparently as a society they were close enough with the Amarr that they just sort of got gathered up into the Empire without a fuss.

I sometimes hear some Amarr speaking of maybe bringing the Caldari into the Empire the same way. I'm a little unsure that that will play out the way they hope.

It is tricky to claim Khanid were never slaves when some of them were reclaimed by slavery.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#12 - 2016-05-06 15:04:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Begum etc. pp. d'Hanguest:

Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
...the dogma that only True Amarr are among the chosen...

There is no such dogma in the Empire and has never been: If anything there has been such a doctrine, but there really is no historical evidence that there ever was such a doctrine in place. Dogma is unchanging and not open to revision, so if there ever was such a dogma, then there couldn't have been Khanid and Udorian holders and much less an Udorian royal house at all. Doctrine can be changend. You should at least get your terminology right - even if you're trying to set up a straw men here.

Yes, there are some True Amarr who hold such beliefs - and also some non-True Amarr as it is - but that's actually a deviation from the ethical standards with which the Amarr have been charged by God: The claim that biological characteristics are more important than cultural traits and ethics, invariably led to heresy if pursued further than holding it as a personal worldview.

Odelya d'Hanguest wrote:
Volumes of exegesis have been written about those parts of the Scriptures elaborating the True Amarr’s claim to superiority and acting as the Lord’s chosen agents (cf. Book I 1:4, Book of Reclaiming 3:19-3:21, 4:45, Gheinok the First 1:32, Saint Junip 15:11, Second Letter of St. Junip of Aerui, Prophet Anoyia 17:21, Anoyia’s Exhortation to the Faithful etc.).


Now, there have volumes been written about it, but they are deviations from theological consensus and really few works in comparison to those that stress ethics, righteousness and justice. Just look at the verses you ask people to confer to:

  • Book I 1:4 - No notice of True Amarr whatsoever.
  • Book of Reclaiming 3:19-3:21 - No referral to True Amarr either, it refers to Amarr, no racial overtones, rather allegories of rule: And special note is made that all are the same in serving, ultimately, God. Also, The Chosen happen to be Amarr in the narrative, they aren't Chosen because of their Amarr-race (cf. Book II 2:1 - They were chosen because "the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God", again ethical qualities).
  • Book of Reclaiming 4:45 - Clear outline of ethical demands of God towards his Chosen.
  • Gheinok the First 1:32 - The Amarr are referred to as a "people", not a race or ethnicity. There is actually archeological evidence that the first settlers of Athra were multi-ethnic and that the ethnicity of "True Amarr" only formed later on on the isolation of Amarr island.
  • Saint Junip 15:11 - Again, an exhortation of sacrifice and as such of righteous action rather than racial qualities.
  • Second Letter of St. Junip of Aerui - Again, making clear that the status as chosen is not a given based on race, but something one has to prove oneself of as deserving, thus again a demand for righteousness.
  • Prophet Anoyia 17:21 - Again, it's people of Amarr and the narrative stress is here on the activity of the Emperor, which is by definition righteous leadership and thus includes the duty to make his people righteous.
  • Anoyia’s Exhortation to the Faithful - Again an admonishion to "hold yourselves high above all and constantly prove yourself worthy of Gods Love". No word implying that such is done by birth into a race, rather again the call for righteous action: "to toil all our days, In his glorious service, According to his will, Serving him always, Bearing him first in our thoughts,"


And that's exactly where it comes to you: Is your impatience to be recognized as equal to the True Amarr by those sitting on the fringe of what is valid theological consensus so great that you have to bring this up even before the new Empress is crowned? What should be of greater importance to you is how the Lord looks upon you and thus you should rather humble yourself before him and cease this show that won't impress him - and show all to well that your focus is not with Him, but common things. This truthfully isn't the Amarr way.

May you thrive and grow in God.
Nicoletta Mithra
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#13 - 2016-05-06 15:07:43 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:


Then I wait for the glorious day when the Empire is led by a Reclaimed Matari. Or Gallente.



I'm sure House Shakor would be beneficent and kind in their rule.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#14 - 2016-05-06 15:21:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ashlar Vellum wrote:
About the reclaiming: "never were" does not imply "exceptions", it's either never or were.


Um, respectfully, if I understand correctly, even True Amarr are occasionally made slaves (because of some failing or other, such as criminal acts).

A few Khanid were at one time enslaved during the original Reclaiming for whatever reason, but most never were. Apparently as a society they were close enough with the Amarr that they just sort of got gathered up into the Empire without a fuss.

I sometimes hear some Amarr speaking of maybe bringing the Caldari into the Empire the same way. I'm a little unsure that that will play out the way they hope.

It is tricky to claim Khanid were never slaves when some of them were reclaimed by slavery.


Well-- except that means that there were maybe individual exceptions, rather than mass-enslavement. It depends on how you parse the language, so maybe this is a translator problem.

If you say, "The Khanid were never slaves," that could mean, "No Khanid were ever enslaved," or, "The Khanid were never enslaved as a people, unlike the Udorians, Ni-Kunnis, Ealur, and Matari."
Odelya d'Hanguest
Order of St. Severian
#15 - 2016-05-06 16:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Odelya d'Hanguest
In the Name of Light
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
There is no such dogma in the Empire and has never been: If anything there has been such a doctrine, but there really is no historical evidence that there ever was such a doctrine in place. Dogma is unchanging and not open to revision, so if there ever was such a dogma, then there couldn't have been Khanid and Udorian holders and much less an Udorian royal house at all. Doctrine can be changend. You should at least get your terminology right - even if you're trying to set up a straw men here.

Look at the etymology of “dogma,” it stems from “opinion,” related to “seem good, think.” Doctrine, closely related to “docent”, however, denotes a “teaching,” for instance by an ecclesiastical body. We were referring to a strongly hold belief (by individuals, not the Empire), not to a teaching (by an authority). And there is no such—as you state it yourself.

Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
Yes, there are some True Amarr who hold such beliefs - and also some non-True Amarr as it is - but that's actually a deviation from the ethical standards with which the Amarr have been charged by God: The claim that biological characteristics are more important than cultural traits and ethics, invariably led to heresy if pursued further than holding it as a personal worldview.

The claims that we have been confronted with have neither racial nor biological overtones. They relate to a different definition of “people.” People, in this sense, is not related to ethnicity, but to a group bond together by God’s selection. As such it is irrelevant if that people-to-be was ethnically mixed before or not. Becoming chosen constituted the people first. Becoming chosen, in this view, is believed to be a non-repeatable incident, it occurred only once. God chose the Amarr and only the Amarr, at a given time and place. Thus said, we appreciate your arguments and comments on the Scriptures, yet you are arguing another case. And make no mistake, we are not claiming that those statements are true, we are just paraphrasing them for your elucidation.

Nicoletta Mithra wrote:
And that's exactly where it comes to you [...]

We do not feel compelled give grounds to you. It is strange enough that dogmatic liberals can be so doctrinaire when it comes to a simple theological debate.

Odelya d’Hanguest, Begum of Palas etc. pp.
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#16 - 2016-05-06 16:19:32 UTC
I trust the Tash-Murkons and their piety and loyalty to the Empire are not in doubt.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#17 - 2016-05-06 16:22:17 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:


Then I wait for the glorious day when the Empire is led by a Reclaimed Matari. Or Gallente.



I'm sure House Shakor would be beneficent and kind in their rule.


Indeed, I look forward to Tyrant Shakor presenting himself for slavery induction so the process can get started. Then who knows - in a few millennia his descendants may be in positions of power in the Empire.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2016-05-06 16:51:51 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Rinai Vero wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:


Then I wait for the glorious day when the Empire is led by a Reclaimed Matari. Or Gallente.



I'm sure House Shakor would be beneficent and kind in their rule.


Indeed, I look forward to Tyrant Shakor presenting himself for slavery induction so the process can get started. Then who knows - in a few millennia his descendants may be in positions of power in the Empire.


Shakor doesn't even do anything these days. It's all Tribal Council doing now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#19 - 2016-05-06 19:39:35 UTC
Rodj Blake wrote:
Indeed, I look forward to Tyrant Shakor presenting himself for slavery induction so the process can get started. Then who knows - in a few millennia his descendants may be in positions of power in the Empire.

Do me a favor and hold your breath while you wait, ok?

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

D'Hoffryn Farhat
Doomheim
#20 - 2016-05-06 20:04:32 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Rodj Blake wrote:
Indeed, I look forward to Tyrant Shakor presenting himself for slavery induction so the process can get started. Then who knows - in a few millennia his descendants may be in positions of power in the Empire.

Do me a favor and hold your breath while you wait, ok?

I can picture you holding his breath for him. With your hands around his throat.
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