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Fleet Warp - Make it require pilot is not AFK
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-05-04 19:44:47 UTC
Some folks say fleet warp should be removed from the game because it is a way for someone else to fly your ship, and thus a tool for AFKers to be lazy and get away with it. Others defend the mechanic, saying that it is necessary to keep a fleet organized when warping without inducing high stress levels in the pilots.

I've got a solution to both!



The proposal:
Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.



Major impacts:
1.) When FC warps fleet to see who is AFK, the ones who are AFK will not warp, so the ones who are not AFK will be the ones warping, instead of being the ones cancelling their warp.
2.) When mining in a fleet and hostiles show up and commander warps everyone off, anyone who is AFK will not get warped.
3.) It'll be harder to multibox.
4.) Fred will get mad because he was ATK eating a sandwich and it flagged him AFK and he missed the warp.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#2 - 2016-05-04 20:11:15 UTC
Is this a very strange...
Quote:
I hope I can check if someone is afk in the future

...nerf cloaky campers thread?

Also no.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-05-04 20:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
You can already check if someone is AFK. This is done in fleets all the time. Also, what does it have to do with nerfing cloaked ships?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#4 - 2016-05-04 20:20:12 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Is this a very strange...
Quote:
I hope I can check if someone is afk in the future

...nerf cloaky campers thread?

Also no.

more like buff cloaky camper

unless there is cloaky afk fleet
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-05-04 20:28:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Some folks say fleet warp should be removed from the game because it is a way for someone else to fly your ship, and thus a tool for AFKers to be lazy and get away with it. Others defend the mechanic, saying that it is necessary to keep a fleet organized when warping without inducing high stress levels in the pilots.

I've got a solution to both!



The proposal:
Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.



Major impacts:
1.) When FC warps fleet to see who is AFK, the ones who are AFK will not warp, so the ones who are not AFK will be the ones warping, instead of being the ones cancelling their warp.
2.) When mining in a fleet and hostiles show up and commander warps everyone off, anyone who is AFK will not get warped.
3.) It'll be harder to multibox.
4.) Fred will get mad because he was ATK eating a sandwich and it flagged him AFK and he missed the warp.



No. Such detection programs will almost always have a fairly high rate of false positives.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#6 - 2016-05-04 21:18:00 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The proposal:
Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.


-1

not interested in that as a mechanic in the game.

Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk?

or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos.

only thing i can say, if you run a fleet make sure they are willing to stay around for the period of time you expect to be out with the fleet and if they cant then tell them to GTFO. As for emergencies during fleet play I can only suggest telling them to warp to a safe spot n log after any aggression timer runs out.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-05-04 22:33:20 UTC
sci0gon wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The proposal:
Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.


-1

not interested in that as a mechanic in the game.

Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk?

or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos.

only thing i can say, if you run a fleet make sure they are willing to stay around for the period of time you expect to be out with the fleet and if they cant then tell them to GTFO. As for emergencies during fleet play I can only suggest telling them to warp to a safe spot n log after any aggression timer runs out.


Your first issue would be counter balanced by people getting killed because they didn't get fleet warp because they were AFK.

If a Titan is AFK, it's nobody else's problem but it's owner. Play the damn game or safe up like everyone else.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-05-04 22:59:53 UTC
Raid warning..??
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
TOG - The Older Gamers Alliance
#9 - 2016-05-04 23:40:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrified
Imagine if interdictors were DScan immune...

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-05-05 01:04:12 UTC
If you're AFK, you're not likely to be aligned when the FC fleetwarps.

So, if the guys you're fighting against move fast enough, they can quite possibly catch you and kill you.

Isn't that a good enough incentive not to be AFK?

A system like yours would need a timer a hell of a lot longer than one minute too. I mean, deagressing does not mean ypu're AFK. Nor does a long warp, burning out of a bubble, or waiting for one to go down of it's own accord, or being a logi on an unopposed POS bash, or being DPS on the same...need I go on?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2016-05-05 01:28:53 UTC
how does fleet warping fly some one around afk?

for one it would only work in system. Then you have the part where that ship is useless when they get to where ever they are going

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
Space Brutality
#12 - 2016-05-05 01:40:26 UTC
oh lets add to your idea, after your 1 min afk timer your ship instantly self destructs taking your pod in the explosion with no time to transfer your clone.

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
Dungheap
DHCOx
#13 - 2016-05-05 02:06:51 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

The proposal:
Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.
.

a switch in the fleet menu to accept / decline fleet warps would be welcomed by anyone who's been fleet warped into hostiles and died while afk . but it seems you're asking ccp to protect those afk don't you think they should all take the warp and diaf ?Lol
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#14 - 2016-05-05 04:08:57 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Your first issue would be counter balanced by people getting killed because they didn't get fleet warp because they were AFK.

If a Titan is AFK, it's nobody else's problem but it's owner. Play the damn game or safe up like everyone else.


I've seen that happen plenty of times in the past due to players suffering from emergency warps due to entering the system and not being able to receive those fleet warps due to already being in warp.

as for the second comment you made, it depends on who you fly with, some groups actually give a damn if they suffer a loss like that if they could help to avoid it regardless of whatever reason the titan or mom pilot had for going afk in the first place.

besides I wouldnt be surprised if some of the people who took part in the B-R cap fight actually took a quick 5-10 mins break cos they were dying to go relieve themselves and couldnt wait any longer during the tidi.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2016-05-05 06:59:34 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
sci0gon wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The proposal:
Make an internal AFK mechanic which registers a player as AFK if they haven't made any inputs, keystrokes, or mouse movements within, say, a minute. It doesn't say anything, but makes that person automatically decline fleet warps.


-1

not interested in that as a mechanic in the game.

Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk?

or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos.

only thing i can say, if you run a fleet make sure they are willing to stay around for the period of time you expect to be out with the fleet and if they cant then tell them to GTFO. As for emergencies during fleet play I can only suggest telling them to warp to a safe spot n log after any aggression timer runs out.


Your first issue would be counter balanced by people getting killed because they didn't get fleet warp because they were AFK.

If a Titan is AFK, it's nobody else's problem but it's owner. Play the damn game or safe up like everyone else.


I don't mind the guy AFK getting killed, I do mind the guy who is ATK getting killed because of the horrible "detection algorithm". Detecting people who are AFK is not as simple as noting mouse clicks or whatever. Just because I am not clicking on something does not mean I am AFK.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2016-05-05 07:08:15 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
If you're AFK, you're not likely to be aligned when the FC fleetwarps.

So, if the guys you're fighting against move fast enough, they can quite possibly catch you and kill you.

Isn't that a good enough incentive not to be AFK?

A system like yours would need a timer a hell of a lot longer than one minute too. I mean, deagressing does not mean ypu're AFK. Nor does a long warp, burning out of a bubble, or waiting for one to go down of it's own accord, or being a logi on an unopposed POS bash, or being DPS on the same...need I go on?


Yes you do, because these sorts of automatic processes suck donkey balls and apparently most people do not realize it.

Here is the thing, humans are great at spotting patterns. So great we even spot patterns where there are none. Why? Probably evolution. Running away from what you think is a lion in the tall grass does not have many downsides. Ignoring what could be a lion in the tall grass does. So those of us good at spotting patterns and hauling ass tended to live whereas our less paranoid brethren fed the lions. We passed on our genes, they did not.

Computers...they are stupid. Blindingly stupid. Without a human to program them they can do nothing. Maybe that will change someday, but that day is not today, nor tomorrow or any time soon. So any detection algorithm, to not have a **** ton of false positives will likely need a human to look over things. CCP cannot reasonably put a guy out there checking to see if an FC about to issue a fleet warp is going to correctly fleet warp only those who ATK.

The idea is not bad...it is just not able to be implemented in a way that is even remotely reasonable.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Iain Cariaba
#17 - 2016-05-05 08:13:23 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
The idea is not bad...

No, actually it is.

Here's a scenario I run into a lot on lowsec PvP roams. We're camping a gate and scouts notice a larger fleet heading our way. The FC fleet warps us to a safe. Many times this happens without warning, and the FC informs us while in warp as to the incoming fleet.

Now, we've been sitting on this gate for a while, 5-10 minutes or more in some cases. If no one's come through, we sit and orbit the gate while the scouts are finding targets. With Reaver's suggestion, most of the fleet would be declared AFK, even though we aren't. This will lead to people to be left behind simply because, like myself, they see no need to randomly click on **** in the UI when there is no reason to click on anything.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2016-05-05 09:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Danika Princip wrote:
A system like yours would need a timer a hell of a lot longer than one minute too.

Whatever amount of time, that's not the important part of the suggestion.




Teckos Pech wrote:
So any detection algorithm, to not have a **** ton of false positives will likely need a human to look over things. CCP cannot reasonably put a guy out there checking to see if an FC about to issue a fleet warp is going to correctly fleet warp only those who ATK.


Iain Cariaba wrote:
Now, we've been sitting on this gate for a while, 5-10 minutes or more in some cases. If no one's come through, we sit and orbit the gate while the scouts are finding targets. With Reaver's suggestion, most of the fleet would be declared AFK, even though we aren't. This will lead to people to be left behind simply because, like myself, they see no need to randomly click on **** in the UI when there is no reason to click on anything.

I did say mouse movements.

So really, pretty much everyone will get the warp. They're either hitting alt+tab to browse other websites, or are typing in chat, or maybe they're spinning the camera around to look at space. Except Fred. Fred didn't get the warp because he is backed away from his computer and hasn't even bumped the mouse for a while. He is putting a lot more focus on his sandwich than what's happening in fleet chat. In a way, Fred really is AFK, though.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2016-05-05 09:22:06 UTC
sci0gon wrote:
Do you have any idea how many people have died due to being fleet warped in this game while afk?

or how many supers / titans have also been saved by gang warp to a pos cos they went afk and forgot to leave the gang and cloak? same could be said for killing them too by warping them out of the pos.

So sometimes people die because they were AFK and got fleetwarped.
And sometimes people are saved while AFK because they got fleetwarped.

What's your argument?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Iain Cariaba
#20 - 2016-05-05 10:42:31 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So any detection algorithm, to not have a **** ton of false positives will likely need a human to look over things. CCP cannot reasonably put a guy out there checking to see if an FC about to issue a fleet warp is going to correctly fleet warp only those who ATK.


Iain Cariaba wrote:
Now, we've been sitting on this gate for a while, 5-10 minutes or more in some cases. If no one's come through, we sit and orbit the gate while the scouts are finding targets. With Reaver's suggestion, most of the fleet would be declared AFK, even though we aren't. This will lead to people to be left behind simply because, like myself, they see no need to randomly click on **** in the UI when there is no reason to click on anything.

I did say mouse movements.

So really, pretty much everyone will get the warp. They're either hitting alt+tab to browse other websites, or are typing in chat, or maybe they're spinning the camera around to look at space. Except Fred. Fred didn't get the warp because he is backed away from his computer and hasn't even bumped the mouse for a while. He is putting a lot more focus on his sandwich than what's happening in fleet chat. In a way, Fred really is AFK, though.

If you're alt-tabbed to another application, the EvE client is not receiving input from anything, and you'll be flagged AFK. If you're typing in chat or spinning the camera, you're obviously at the keyboard, therefore the inclusion in your list of justifications is erroneous.

Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
So sometimes people die because they were AFK and got fleetwarped.
And sometimes people are saved while AFK because they got fleetwarped.

What's your argument?

On one hand, you don't want people being warped in to a fight just to be an easy killmail. I can understand this. However, at the same time you're suggesting a mechanic that will actively punish people who thought they had time to get a sandwich, until something unexpected happened and the fleet needed to move.
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