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Asset safety and loot denial in wormhole Citadels

First post
Author
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1 - 2016-04-20 09:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
I wrote this already here but it only concerns wormholes so I think we should really try to bring it to the attention of CCP.

So asset safety mechanics will not work in wspace, which is good. However, without further specific tweaks to wormhole Citadels, I think it is obvious that the owner of a Citadel will easily be able to leave absolutely no loot for the attackers. Like, 0 ISK. Without any effort required on his part.

Hopelessly sieged? Just open your Citadel's hangar, select everything you cannot log off and click "trash it". All assets gone in a second. Zero work required, no more blowing up ships one by one for hours.

This means that with Citadels, there would be even less loot to be gained from sieges. Now, we can at least try to attack while owners are offline and hope to lock assets in hangars by reinforcing them before owners come online to save anything. Which is also broken and stupid, forcing us to actively avoid the chance of the defenders fighting us, something we usually want. But that's how it is.

As I wrote in my other post, I suggest following tweaks for wormhole Citadels:

1. Item trashing in station (Citadel) becomes unavailable if the structure is a) under attack, b) in repair state or c) invulnerable after a successful attack on its shields or armor. It becomes available again when the structure enters invulnerability state after a successful repair cycle.

2. Intiating self-destruct on a ship while tethered to the Citadel acts like a weapons timer and makes the ship vulnerable. So if you want to self-destruct a ship, you first have to manage to get away from the attacking fleet sieging your pos.

The victim class (farmers/bears) will of course cry foul, but the fact is that without these tweaks there will be no reason to ever siege a Citadel in wormhole space except personal animosity as there will be absolutely nothing to gain. We can make the target corp lose all their stuff but we will not get any of it and all the losses will be totally invisible. This cannot be the intention of CCP.

Make evictions harder and more challenging, but also potentially more profitable.

.

Pinkylein
No Vacancies
Wardec Mechanics
#2 - 2016-04-20 10:04:33 UTC
Thats a tricky thing, right.

I did not check on all details about mechanics on citadels. But atm you can still safe assets when you see a force coming in.

How about undocking, getting away with something.

Let's say you have an orca right now in your POS, you put all your stuff into it and can warp to a safe and hope nobody tracks you down, assuming you can get away as long as the pos is not completely bubbled. Then you well got most of your precious stuff out ... MAYBE. What about then ... can you... even think of undocking? is there even the slightest possible way to get away with an orca from a Citadel, when someone is actually preparing to evict you?

You need to find a balance. Assuming a single SB drops a bomb, which lets your POS be under attack. Locking everything from preventing to do anything like trashing would be kind of overreaction. And he could do that whilst nobody is in system and that SB is more some kind of "making sure the citadel already works for the attackers, even though the real forces did not even show up yet".

So beeing able to at least react against attackers even for smaller forces should be a thing ... but that probably comes together with the 3 hour time for mediums anyway ... guess thats something only experience will show. But wether loosing nothing nor loosing everything for sure should be a thing.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#3 - 2016-04-20 10:26:40 UTC
Currently there is no way to get out of a sieged and r-caged POS while the attackers maintain a presence, so the only thing the defender can do is self-destruct ships or log them off.

Citadels will be very big and have multiple undock points, so it should be impossible to bubble all of them, and tricky to catch every ship that tries to undock and warp off. So defenders should have an actual chance to get away from it and so, will probably try. In the best case this will give something for both sides... because he has a chance, defender will try, but he may fail trying and then the attackers get something.

.

Anthar Thebess
#4 - 2016-04-20 13:44:17 UTC
Inability to trash assets during reinforce time is good thing, and if it is missing in current WH citadel iteration, it should be added.

Thea Jones
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-04-20 17:22:15 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Inability to trash assets during reinforce time is good thing, and if it is missing in current WH citadel iteration, it should be added.




Just make it simpler. Any trashed items enters trash status in the citadel. The citadel will permanently delete all trashed items 7 days from its trashing moment. This gives you two benefits.

1) if you accidentally trash something, you can get it back. I'd apply a cost to this (small and mostly inconsequential unless it's a significant amount of items).

2) even if you trash it, if the enemy destroys the citadel, it still drops. You have to defend it for 7 days straight to deny the loot drop.

That would address both areas and it would also relieve some stress from the gm team as people could recall lost items they accidentally deleted, and would also prevent rogue directors from just deleting 100 billion of someone's array, vs stealing it.
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#6 - 2016-04-20 17:27:12 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Currently there is no way to get out of a sieged and r-caged POS while the attackers maintain a presence, so the only thing the defender can do is self-destruct ships or log them off.

someone hasn't seen drebuchet

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

Selene Eltar
Star Freaks
#7 - 2016-04-21 04:33:12 UTC
Honestly, I don't see how making items unable to be accessed/trashed during an RF timer makes a difference. The defender still looses all the stuff they couldn't safe-log with.
unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#8 - 2016-04-21 05:39:19 UTC
If i read it correctly trashing is disabled in the second and last reinforcement timer.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#9 - 2016-04-21 10:58:01 UTC
You read that where?

Selene Eltar wrote:
Honestly, I don't see how making items unable to be accessed/trashed during an RF timer makes a difference. The defender still looses all the stuff they couldn't safe-log with.


Uhm, what do I care what they lost if a) I don't get any of it and b) it is not even documented anywhere? I want to get loot and I want to know what they lost as a result of me sieging them.

.

Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-04-21 11:07:36 UTC
As much as I support this idea, you do realise that wormhole space will burn if this happens, right?

Thea Jones
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2016-04-21 13:51:30 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
As much as I support this idea, you do realise that wormhole space will burn if this happens, right?



.... oh lord please, please I hope so.... Pirate
Tsawind Gallente
Iron.Guard
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2016-05-02 14:15:58 UTC
This is an important topic. Sieges are a very important part of wormhole life, we must protect this content at all costs.
Jessie McPewpew
U2EZ
#13 - 2016-05-03 04:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessie McPewpew
Item trashing has been available for a long time in POSs before entering reinforced mode but I can see how removing it completely will foster more evictions in wh space.

Even more bothersome is that fact that CCP makes recovering assets an available option to nullsec bears just to coerce them into using citadels shoving aside the fact that the main reason for sieging anyone's home, regardless of location, is to get loot or harvest tears or both, but apparently, nullbears must be protected from experiencing such torture at all cost. It's time to rid of any loot protection of sort from CItadels and outposts after destruction, apart from NPC stations obviously.

Honestly, the only thing more annoying is your typical nullbear rage-posting about how wh life is too easy on the sub-forums.
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-05-03 06:51:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
TBH, anything that discourages shooting POSs is a great thing.

Tsawind Gallente wrote:
This is an important topic. Sieges are a very important part of wormhole life, we must protect this content at all costs.

sieges are a COMMON part of wh life, they are not a GOOD part of wh life.
obviously they should be possible but giving people any incentive to do them for profit or 'fun' is a bad thing IMO.

There is no Bob.

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Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#15 - 2016-05-03 17:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
If you are tethered you can safely log off

I suggest storing all valuables in tethered Orcas only docking when necessary - If someone decides to blow up the citadel you log off with the goodies & they get the empty citadel container.
Of course dedicated attackers could spend a billion or so to Anchor a new Citadel and have someone online 24/7 to try and get you... Now that's some serious dedication

Gone is the age of scanning alts in wormholes - I propose storage alts
Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-05-03 20:48:05 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
If you are tethered you can safely log off

I suggest storing all valuables in tethered Orcas only docking when necessary - If someone decides to blow up the citadel you log off with the goodies & they get the empty citadel container.
Of course dedicated attackers could spend a billion or so to Anchor a new Citadel and have someone online 24/7 to try and get you... Now that's some serious dedication

Gone is the age of scanning alts in wormholes - I propose storage alts


The comedy that would ensue probing down a loot piñata orca....

Yaay!!!!

Iowa Banshee
Fenrir Vangard
#17 - 2016-05-03 21:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Iowa Banshee
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
If you are tethered you can safely log off

I suggest storing all valuables in tethered Orcas only docking when necessary - If someone decides to blow up the citadel you log off with the goodies & they get the empty citadel container.
Of course dedicated attackers could spend a billion or so to Anchor a new Citadel and have someone online 24/7 to try and get you... Now that's some serious dedication

Gone is the age of scanning alts in wormholes - I propose storage alts


The comedy that would ensue probing down a loot piñata orca....



No need to scan it down -
It would be exactly where it logged out and that's a place where you can't anchor a Tower to catch it - So your options are sit at that spot in space and wait or Anchor a Citadel & be online and wait


I would just have to log on an alt - scan till a highsec wh out spawn and I'm gone
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#18 - 2016-05-07 18:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Jessie McPewpew wrote:
Even more bothersome is that fact that CCP makes recovering assets an available option to nullsec bears just to coerce them into using citadels shoving aside the fact that the main reason for sieging anyone's home, regardless of location, is to get loot or harvest tears or both, but apparently, nullbears must be protected from experiencing such torture at all cost. It's time to rid of any loot protection of sort from CItadels and outposts after destruction, apart from NPC stations obviously.


K-space caters to more casual players and they need to have a safe location for their assets or they would just not use Citadels at all and stay in Hisec and/or stop playing. This difference in game mechanics should be a source of pride for w-space players and I don't feel the least bit bad about it.


edit: Btw I asked corbexx about this topic and he wrote me that I shouldn't worry about it and CCP Nullarbor is on it. Don't see anything in the game or patch notes so far, though Question

.

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#19 - 2016-05-07 23:38:57 UTC
Trash items is already disabled in Citadels when in the final reinforce (once all the armor has been shot through) and this applies for kspace and wspace. Activating the ship self destruct will also drop the tethering.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics
#20 - 2016-05-08 03:29:19 UTC
Jessie McPewpew wrote:
Item trashing has been available for a long time in POSs before entering reinforced mode but I can see how removing it completely will foster more evictions in wh space.

Even more bothersome is that fact that CCP makes recovering assets an available option to nullsec bears just to coerce them into using citadels shoving aside the fact that the main reason for sieging anyone's home, regardless of location, is to get loot or harvest tears or both, but apparently, nullbears must be protected from experiencing such torture at all cost. It's time to rid of any loot protection of sort from CItadels and outposts after destruction, apart from NPC stations obviously.

Honestly, the only thing more annoying is your typical nullbear rage-posting about how wh life is too easy on the sub-forums.


Null Stuff is different and unrelated to wh life.
Currently stations live forever there, this caused a number of problems,
1) To many stations in general in null,
2) People of today are benefiting from the labour and efforts of groups whom payed for and planted stations long long ago.
3) People keep more in null in general because wh's tend to have super easy logistics compared to most if not all of null.

With stations being killable at some point and citadels being killable now, that should make incoming groups should they want to live in an area have to invest more to keep space, instead of kill locals take free station.

The asset saftey mechanic means all there crap minus % tax gets moved out and they have some thing to rebuild with to come kill you much quicker should they actually want to retry and take where they used to live back.
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