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[Citadel] Updates to NPC taxes and refining rig bonuses

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CaesarGREG
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2016-04-28 11:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: CaesarGREG
Now minimum Tax is shown 1% but its taken 0.75%

Display Base broker fee Fluctuates somtimes shows 225.00% , 231.00% , 234.00%

but deduct 2% Broker fee for order.


So u dont rise Sales Tax still 0.75 maybe u shouldnt rise Broker Fee? or maybe not so much 10 times? 0.18% > 2% . Its to much!


Beter solution is Rise Tax than broker fee, to big difrence betwen them. Markets will die less orders hanging and waiting for customers. 10 times higher risk specially for not popular items, wich not always sell quick and u have to re set order and pay again broker fee.
Jerppu3
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#62 - 2016-04-28 12:49:13 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Jerppu3 wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Can we please tax compression?

Right now there is very little reason to refine in a citadel that isn't closer to a trade hub and even beyond that there will be plenty of public ones with 0 tax. If ppl can just compress in mine for free why would they ever refine there. A DST can move over 1M of ore after compression.


Beyond that why can't I charge for a service I'm paying to provide


Exactly what he said. We have been asking this for quite a while now.


Hell I would settle for a good explenation as to why ccp has decided against this


HELLO CCP, ANYBODY THERE?

HELLO CCP, hver þarna? Vinsamlegast! :D
Darkwing Fiftytwo
Hookers N' Blow
#63 - 2016-04-28 13:19:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkwing Fiftytwo
Agreed the new broker fee is crazy high. Also why force guys to grind standings with their trading alts. I am going to pay for the sub regardless of that grind.

Or can you allow us to buy standings the way we can buy sec status? Bribes are a real thing :)

Total transaction tax is now anywhere between 3-4%!


Edit Add: I believe your goal is to push people to use player made markets in citadels faster, why not wait untill some citadels are built first and the markets start growing there then shrink the player made markets.

Since your endgame is to slowly eliminate NPC stations, eventually you might want to merge system inventories. By that i mean you can access one inventory for the entire system from any station.
CaesarGREG
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2016-04-28 15:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CaesarGREG
What is market? what is it?
Answer:

1. Producers / miners / ratters.
2. Buyers.
3. Market traders.

With all 3 things everything works fine.

But 3. Point to exist fine need Higher Sales Tax than Broker Fee, becaues Producer usualy sell Goods to Market Trader on "buy Order" to avoid and dont pay Sales Tax, usualy dont want wait so long as trader.
Now when Seles Tax is around 20% costs ( 2x broker + Tax) most producers will decide sell themselves, what in my opinion will disfunction markets. Stiupid things will happend more often like difrence beetween buy and sell will be lower than transaction costs.


If CCP want 2% broker fees ok just fine , but God Sake pls set up Sales Tax around 4% minimum.


Pls consider to hold healthe balance beetween broker Fee and Tax
(Old balance was around 1:3 ratio > 0.75% to 0.18%)
we dont care how much % u will set up but hold balance like it was Ratio with higher Sales Tax!!!!
Redneck Herman
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2016-04-28 19:01:48 UTC
This is also the thing that pisses me off. I learned of this on the patch day, they tried to hide it.

Rhett Cutler wrote:
This is my first post ever.

I have five accounts

Citadel expansion.......yeah, right.

As a minor note on the release blog it buries something about taxes and broker fees changing with a reason........that CCP wants to see how the market will react to a "small" change. Small change, yeah right. To me it's a huge change.

I have been playing over two years as a solo trader. My goal is to amass a net worth of a trillion isk. That's fun for me. So far I'm 12% of the way there. I buy and sell. I buy and sell lots. I live and trade in High Sec.

And then today. after grinding out ten thousandths of a broker fee point (off the trillions that go thru my trading hub .......and it is trillions) I discover in the fine print that CCP has changed the broker fees by a factor of eight to ten for me "to see how the market will react" It is buried in the overwhelming coverage of new new new null sec stuff. Not much mention of why economically massive tax and fee changes were required.


To trade my way to a trillion takes a lot of building and reinvestment. A ten thousanth of a pecentage point adds up. Now it appears my low broker/tax total has gone from just over 1% to almost triple that. Now while that may sound small....I buy my ore (one station broker fee) and then sell my product (another broker fee in my production) My net profits are under ten percent...... when they sell. Ya think CCP just broke my game?

I'm frustrated....and today for the first time.....I quit early. Not sure what I'll do in the future. Don't need your sympathy nor ISK. I just want my gaming style respected and if changes must be made maybe a little more info and debate on why. Paying customers are not mere guinea pigs for testing and monitoring theories.

Rhett & company
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#66 - 2016-04-28 22:12:59 UTC
Redneck Herman wrote:
This is also the thing that pisses me off. I learned of this on the patch day, they tried to hide it.

Rhett Cutler wrote:
This is my first post ever.

I have five accounts

Citadel expansion.......yeah, right.

As a minor note on the release blog it buries something about taxes and broker fees changing with a reason........that CCP wants to see how the market will react to a "small" change. Small change, yeah right. To me it's a huge change.

I have been playing over two years as a solo trader. My goal is to amass a net worth of a trillion isk. That's fun for me. So far I'm 12% of the way there. I buy and sell. I buy and sell lots. I live and trade in High Sec.

And then today. after grinding out ten thousandths of a broker fee point (off the trillions that go thru my trading hub .......and it is trillions) I discover in the fine print that CCP has changed the broker fees by a factor of eight to ten for me "to see how the market will react" It is buried in the overwhelming coverage of new new new null sec stuff. Not much mention of why economically massive tax and fee changes were required.


To trade my way to a trillion takes a lot of building and reinvestment. A ten thousanth of a pecentage point adds up. Now it appears my low broker/tax total has gone from just over 1% to almost triple that. Now while that may sound small....I buy my ore (one station broker fee) and then sell my product (another broker fee in my production) My net profits are under ten percent...... when they sell. Ya think CCP just broke my game?

I'm frustrated....and today for the first time.....I quit early. Not sure what I'll do in the future. Don't need your sympathy nor ISK. I just want my gaming style respected and if changes must be made maybe a little more info and debate on why. Paying customers are not mere guinea pigs for testing and monitoring theories.

Rhett & company



It was discussed lengthily and properly at the appropiate forum section, so people had every chance to speak ther mind before CCP did what they wanted to do for their design goals.
Farmer Johnson's Daughter
United Federation Of Space Dealers
Already Replaced.
#67 - 2016-04-29 00:31:42 UTC
Now not only do you screw us around on tax and brokers, but you take isk to refine as well?.

For a player that does it all, mine,refine,manufacture you have effectively killed any chance of trading for profit with these new taxes.

I'm stunned by CCP's shortsightedness.

Ugh
Darkwing Fiftytwo
Hookers N' Blow
#68 - 2016-04-29 13:00:45 UTC
Farmer Johnson's Daughter wrote:
Now not only do you screw us around on tax and brokers, but you take isk to refine as well?.

For a player that does it all, mine,refine,manufacture you have effectively killed any chance of trading for profit with these new taxes.

I'm stunned by CCP's shortsightedness.

Ugh


I've already posted 2x about the new broker fees, after doing some more trading etc. I feel even more strongly that they are WAY too high. Putting up an offer to sell some PI materials lets say worth $1B, im looking at 25mm to post it, and 15mm in taxes thats nuts!

Especially since we dont have healthcare!? LOL.

These new broker fees will hurt the market liquidity a lot.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2016-04-29 18:33:31 UTC
Redneck Herman wrote:
This is also the thing that pisses me off. I learned of this on the patch day, they tried to hide it.



They tried to hide it by doing the initial announcement about the feature changing at the beginning of march?

If I want to hide stuff, I personally don't start talking about it close to 2 month in advance...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#70 - 2016-04-29 19:06:03 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Redneck Herman wrote:
This is also the thing that pisses me off. I learned of this on the patch day, they tried to hide it.



They tried to hide it by doing the initial announcement about the feature changing at the beginning of march?

If I want to hide stuff, I personally don't start talking about it close to 2 month in advance...


yeah in places that few players actually look rather than in a dev blog.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2016-04-30 01:09:43 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
[yeah in places that few players actually look rather than in a dev blog.

Well, to be fair, the devs here aren't spectacular in getting all announcements in one place. Most things are announced in the "upcoming stuff" forum, but not all. Reddit seems to get news before us sometimes, and other sections of the forums wholly unrelated to "upcoming stuff" sometimes get announcements. Like, the the Marauder/bastion mode "slap on the wrist" (as you put it) I don't recall seeing in a Dev blog or in the "upcoming stuff" forum at all. So, for a player to stay appraised of what's coming up, there's the "upcoming stuff" forum, Reddit, Dev blogs, and sometimes the Test Server forum. Probably others too.

I think we can forgive players for missing some information, sometimes.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
E'lanna Firestorm
Liquid Risk
#72 - 2016-04-30 01:34:52 UTC
I don't get CCP compulsion to drive people out of hi sec.

I don't get a lot of time to play games. I spend a significant amount of time earning isk to buy assets. I don't what to spend weeks saving for something to lose it to some player that gets joy by making others miserable. I don't want to have to keep rebuilding. I don't have the time for that. CCP's game tweaks seem aimed to make people reliant on POS that can be destroyed at any moment along with everyone's assets.

Why does CCP feel the need to nerf hi-sec in order to justify POS? They say so that station owners can make a profit. That is ridiculous. The reward of POS is to project power and reap the benefits of that power. The POS should cost money, not make money.

The militaries of the world don't spend money building bases and ships to make profit, it is to project power. Power is the end goal. Leave us hi sec players out of it.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2016-04-30 01:41:47 UTC
E'lanna Firestorm wrote:
I don't get CCP compulsion to drive people out of hi sec.

Because the more a player is exposed to more parts of the game, the more likely they will stay subscribed. There's a lot of fun to be had in all sectors of space, and if a player is familiar enough and comfortable enough to visit all sectors of space, they are more likely to find content to entertain themselves rather than growing bored and unsubbing.

Think of it as a gentle "push" out of the nest. Not only will you learn you can fly, you'll find it quite exciting too. At least in theory.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
E'lanna Firestorm
Liquid Risk
#74 - 2016-04-30 02:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: E'lanna Firestorm
E'lanna Firestorm wrote:
I don't get CCP compulsion to drive people out of hi sec.

I don't get a lot of time to play games. I spend a significant amount of time earning isk to buy assets. I don't what to spend weeks saving for something to lose it to some player that gets joy by making others miserable. I don't want to have to keep rebuilding. I don't have the time for that.


Khan Wrenth wrote:
E'lanna Firestorm wrote:
I don't get CCP compulsion to drive people out of hi sec.

Because the more a player is exposed to more parts of the game, the more likely they will stay subscribed. There's a lot of fun to be had in all sectors of space, and if a player is familiar enough and comfortable enough to visit all sectors of space, they are more likely to find content to entertain themselves rather than growing bored and unsubbing.

Think of it as a gentle "push" out of the nest. Not only will you learn you can fly, you'll find it quite exciting too. At least in theory.


so hi sec is one of those areas. why mess with it and destroying the profitability of trading and manufacturing is one way to get ride of all those players.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#75 - 2016-04-30 02:16:29 UTC
lol they couldn't even manage to get all the patch notes right

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ace Aideron
Red Falcon Group
#76 - 2016-04-30 11:59:10 UTC
I, too, am curious about the motivation for increasing taxes. The old levels were already too high, IMO, and the new ones are that much worse.

The way taxes and broker fees are implemented in Eve makes me wonder if they reflect a RL worldview of how taxation should work.

Is the goal is to sink more isk out of the economy? If so, there are more creative ways.

Or perhaps the goal is to slow down the economy and to make it less economical to do station trading? If so, they might be effective -- but annoying to the other 99% of us.

As much as I appreciate the trading system, I, for one, would like to suggest a complete overhaul -- there's a lot of room for improvement in everything from fees, to terminology, to the way orders are created, changed, and interact with one another.
Regnar Avastum
#77 - 2016-05-02 05:00:11 UTC
So how is this refining tax actually implemented? I can't seem to get the formula down.

♔ ℜegnar's High-End Spreadsheets ♔™
Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#78 - 2016-05-02 06:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Drago Shouna
Regnar Avastum wrote:
So how is this refining tax actually implemented? I can't seem to get the formula down.


NVM the formula, I don't get how this is working at all right now...

Yesterday I spent a few hours mining ore with 3 accounts, I took it all to the pos and refined/compressed it all.

Then last night I took 2 accounts to grab some Ice for pos fuel, this all got dumped in the corp ore hangar in our home station. But.

When I went to refine it, it was odd. On one account there was no isk charge, but on the other there was an isk charge, but the Ice was mined by both accounts, so the ownership of it is shared.

How come one owner of the Ice has to pay an isk charge in a NPC station but the other doesn't?

I can't get my head around it, it's just weird.

edit..It's the same in a station for ore which was mined on both accounts.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#79 - 2016-05-02 11:44:59 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:


NVM the formula, I don't get how this is working at all right now...

Yesterday I spent a few hours mining ore with 3 accounts, I took it all to the pos and refined/compressed it all.

Then last night I took 2 accounts to grab some Ice for pos fuel, this all got dumped in the corp ore hangar in our home station. But.

When I went to refine it, it was odd. On one account there was no isk charge, but on the other there was an isk charge, but the Ice was mined by both accounts, so the ownership of it is shared.

How come one owner of the Ice has to pay an isk charge in a NPC station but the other doesn't?

I can't get my head around it, it's just weird.

edit..It's the same in a station for ore which was mined on both accounts.

Faction standings.
It's an identical tax on refining to the old refining tax, just instead of losing a percent of materials, you are charged the identical percent of isk on it's estimated market value.
The Citadels are meant to skim their tax from the increased refining that they offer, so NPC stations can still be 0 tax if you have the standings without making citadels worthless on that front.
Regnar Avastum
#80 - 2016-05-02 11:48:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:


NVM the formula, I don't get how this is working at all right now...

Yesterday I spent a few hours mining ore with 3 accounts, I took it all to the pos and refined/compressed it all.

Then last night I took 2 accounts to grab some Ice for pos fuel, this all got dumped in the corp ore hangar in our home station. But.

When I went to refine it, it was odd. On one account there was no isk charge, but on the other there was an isk charge, but the Ice was mined by both accounts, so the ownership of it is shared.

How come one owner of the Ice has to pay an isk charge in a NPC station but the other doesn't?

I can't get my head around it, it's just weird.

edit..It's the same in a station for ore which was mined on both accounts.

Faction standings.
It's an identical tax on refining to the old refining tax, just instead of losing a percent of materials, you are charged the identical percent of isk on it's estimated market value.
The Citadels are meant to skim their tax from the increased refining that they offer, so NPC stations can still be 0 tax if you have the standings without making citadels worthless on that front.


In theory yes in practice no. Please provide the exact % tax from estimated value. I have done multiple tests with various ore types and couldn't figure it out.

♔ ℜegnar's High-End Spreadsheets ♔™