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[Citadel] Updates to NPC taxes and refining rig bonuses

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Author
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2016-04-26 20:45:55 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey folks. This is a quick update to the numbers that had been earlier posted in this thread.

As we announced in the Fanfest Structures presentation, we are planning a smaller change to market taxes than had been announced earlier. This more incremental change is intended to reflect the fact that some extra features such as contracts that are ideal for a market hub will not be released in Citadels until a future date. We also want to gain the ability to observe how the market adjusts to these smaller changes and then use that information to advise future tweaks.

The currently planned market tax values are:

3% Broker’s Fee
  • Reduced to 2.5% with skills and 2% with both skills and max NPC standings
  • Is sunk from the game in NPC stations, is paid to owners in outposts, is customizable and paid to owners in Citadels
  • Skills and standings don’t apply in player structures
Broker’s fee formula: 3% brokers fee - ([Broker Relation skill level]0.1 + [Faction Standing level]0.03 + [Corp Standing level]*0.02)

2 % Transaction Tax
  • Reduced to 1 % with max skills
  • Is sunk from the game in all locations and is not customizable

We intend to tweak these taxes further at a later point after contracts have been added to citadels. The exact values of that next round of tweaks would depend on the metrics after this first release.


We are also making an adjustment to the plan for reprocessing rigs in Citadels. The earlier plan had two security bands for reprocessing rig bonuses, one for highsec and another for low/null/wh. We are separating lowsec into its own band with intermediate reprocessing rig bonuses to preserve the advantage of nullsec refining.

The new values are:
Unrigged Citadel (in all areas of space): 50%
T1 rigged Highsec Citadel: 52%
T2 rigged Highsec Citadel: 54%
T1 rigged Lowsec Citadel: 55.12%
T2 rigged Lowsec Citadel: 57.24%
T1 rigged Null/WH Citadel: 58.24%
T2 rigged Null/WH Citadel: 60.48%


Thanks and good luck with all your post-Citadel plans!

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Anthar Thebess
#2 - 2016-04-26 20:54:49 UTC
What about difference of citadel size and ore type - this is also gone?
jack1974
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#3 - 2016-04-26 20:56:25 UTC
Thank you for the change sir
Capqu
Half Empty
#4 - 2016-04-26 20:58:05 UTC
how do we get our industry teams into citadels
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2016-04-26 21:08:38 UTC
So that's...a comparative nerf to LS refining? (I recall the current numbers being higher)

More importantly, I'd really like to restate my question from the thread: Have you considered all the outcomes (lowered trade volume, increased prices, higher prices for noobs) and do you think that those are positive outcomes?

There's obviously a lot of backdraft from people who think this is a terrible idea, but I'd like to ask for an in-depth explanation of what you envision happening with these tax increases, please.

Otro Willis
The Soul Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2016-04-26 21:23:13 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
So that's...a comparative nerf to LS refining? (I recall the current numbers being higher)

More importantly, I'd really like to restate my question from the thread: Have you considered all the outcomes (lowered trade volume, increased prices, higher prices for noobs) and do you think that those are positive outcomes?

There's obviously a lot of backdraft from people who think this is a terrible idea, but I'd like to ask for an in-depth explanation of what you envision happening with these tax increases, please.




LOL is low sec refining even a thing? Pretty much all the mining is happening in high-sec or null sec.
Otro Willis
The Soul Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#7 - 2016-04-26 21:25:40 UTC
Edit... nvm I am dumb... I forget you guys build things out there and probably don't want to ship the minerals uncompressed.
Basil Vulpine
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#8 - 2016-04-26 21:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Basil Vulpine
Rob Kaichin wrote:
So that's...a comparative nerf to LS refining? (I recall the current numbers being higher)

More importantly, I'd really like to restate my question from the thread: Have you considered all the outcomes (lowered trade volume, increased prices, higher prices for noobs) and do you think that those are positive outcomes?

There's obviously a lot of backdraft from people who think this is a terrible idea, but I'd like to ask for an in-depth explanation of what you envision happening with these tax increases, please.



Low Sec should be using the intensive reprocessing array? That's a 54% refine.
NPC stations are all 50% at best as far as I'm aware.

I don't know if FW causes any adjustments but overall I suspect this is a buff to low-sec refining.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2016-04-26 21:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Drago Shouna
So as things stand atm, a standard pos gives a base refining rate of 52% With a max refining rate of 75.3%.

An Intensive array gives 54% and 78.1% respectively.

Has anyone worked out the refining % on a rigged Medium Citadel with max skills yet? Because it's going to have to be a hell of a lot better to make it even remotely worthwhile, particularly as it has a base rate of 50%. Bearing in mind the fuel costs I don't think it's going to be possible to make it anywhere close to as profitable, not in the short, or long term.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-04-26 21:36:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
Yes, OK, I was looking at the wrong figures (I am not good with spreadsheets). Or maybe I was right?

So you can get higher refines in station, but not in PoSes.

I know this is in the wrong place, does that mean that PoSes are losing their refining abilities this update, or is that at the end of the year.

@Drago, How are you getting ~70% refines in a PoS, which doesn't use standings or skills. (According to both the devblog and Eve Uni)
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2016-04-26 21:45:30 UTC
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-04-26 21:47:20 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Yes, OK, I was looking at the wrong figures (I am not good with spreadsheets). Or maybe I was right?

I know this is in the wrong place, does that mean that PoSes are losing their refining abilities this update, or is that at the end of the year.


The new drilling platforms are scheduled for Autumn. But no figures have been given yet about what they can do, yields, refining etc.

But as far as I can make out you should still be able to refine in a pos until they are taken out of the game, but lol watch this space because anything could happen between now and then.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Otro Willis
The Soul Society
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#13 - 2016-04-26 21:49:49 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.



Because being next door to Jita isn't an advantage at all.
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2016-04-26 21:54:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.



I had this discussion with Fozzie at fanfest, I even pointed out that it could very well be a game breaker for some small miners and industrialists.

His reply was a bit shocking really, well more than a bit. he said " I don't care if 1000 players quit over it, we'll just recruit a thousand more"

With him in charge of team five o I dread to think of what other ways he has up his sleeve to shaft HS in the future.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2016-04-26 21:56:38 UTC
Otro Willis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.



Because being next door to Jita isn't an advantage at all.


What the hell has Jita got to do with it?

I haven't been there in over 2 years, and I doubt I will in the next 2 if i'm here.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-04-26 21:58:20 UTC
Drago wrote:

His reply was a bit shocking really, well more than a bit. he said " I don't care if 1000 players quit over it, we'll just recruit a thousand more"


Did he really say that? That's...a bit shite really.

Anyway, How are you getting ~70% refines in a PoS, which doesn't use standings or skills. (According to both the devblog and Eve Uni)
Drago Shouna
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2016-04-26 22:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Drago Shouna
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Drago wrote:

His reply was a bit shocking really, well more than a bit. he said " I don't care if 1000 players quit over it, we'll just recruit a thousand more"


Did he really say that? That's...a bit shite really.

Anyway, How are you getting ~70% refines in a PoS, which doesn't use standings or skills. (According to both the devblog and Eve Uni)


Apparently they rounded it up in the changes due to legacy code, I just googled it to make sure, I checked 3 different sites as well.

However, we wanted base Reprocessing Array rates to be higher than NPC stations, thus at 52 and 54%. However, since skills are not taken into account for those, we set them up to artificially count as if you have max skills + implant, thus giving them 75.3% and 78.1%.

Outposts will still be on top of those, with a base rate of 60% when fulling upgraded. As such, with max skills and the implant you'll get a maximum reprocessing rate of 86.8% there.

Is that less confusing now?


That includes the rx-804 implant as well.

Yes he really did say that.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Ficti0n
Job Center Plus
#18 - 2016-04-26 22:24:20 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
Drago wrote:

His reply was a bit shocking really, well more than a bit. he said " I don't care if 1000 players quit over it, we'll just recruit a thousand more"


Did he really say that? That's...a bit shite really.



It's up to him to clarfiy, but it doesn't sound like something any responsible dev would say to a customer. I would make doubly sure what you said was accurate and even then think again. Impersonating a dev or rather putting words in their mouths is something that has been dealt with quite heavily in the past.
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#19 - 2016-04-26 22:28:02 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Otro Willis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.



Because being next door to Jita isn't an advantage at all.


What the hell has Jita got to do with it?

I haven't been there in over 2 years, and I doubt I will in the next 2 if i'm here.


If you haven't been in Jita, you probably haven't done significant business.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2016-04-26 22:28:07 UTC
@Ficti0n, it's entirely possible he was a) 3 sheets to the wind, or b) 2 and a half sheets to the wind after getting wasted the night before.

It does tie into what I'm beginning to expect from CCP now :(.

Anyway, it was Drago who said it, not me :P.
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