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Tactical Shield Manipulation skill description.
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Adeline Lachance
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-04-24 16:44:47 UTC
I had a hard time understanding this description (quoted below) as a new player. Now that I do, it seems obvious, which is why I'm putting this in the new players forum rather than suggesting improvements under Skill Discussion or in a bug.

The second sentence refers to the percentage chance of damage bleeding through to your armor once your shields drop below 25%. At level 5, there is a 0% chance, meaning that your shields must be completely drained before your armor will take damage. At least, that is based on some observations from my own experience.

This appears to be related to the shield and armor "Uniformity" attribute given for ships on http://www.eveonlineships.com/eve-ships-list.php. I have been unable to locate this attribute in game nor do I know if it varies across ships.

"Skill at preventing damage from penetrating the shield, including the use of shield hardeners and other advanced shield modules. Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5."
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2016-04-24 18:16:33 UTC
The description of that skill should be "train this to IV to unlock T2 hardeners and then forget about it".

Having some damage bleed through your shields below 25% is actually desirable, because it keeps your shields longer close to peak recharge.
Adeline Lachance
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-04-24 19:13:07 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
The description of that skill should be "train this to IV to unlock T2 hardeners and then forget about it".

Having some damage bleed through your shields below 25% is actually desirable, because it keeps your shields longer close to peak recharge.


I'm not sure I understand. All the "hardeners" I see are armor related. Do you mean invulnerability, dissipation, ward, and deflection fields? Am I right that this would primarily be a concern for those relying on an active shield tank? Would level 5 not be preferable for those using a passive shield tank?
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-04-24 19:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Hayson
Adeline Lachance wrote:
All the "hardeners" I see are armor related. Do you mean invulnerability, dissipation, ward, and deflection fields?

Yes. They are often referred to as shield hardeners.

Both active and passive shield tanks use those modules to boost the resistance against damage, so you'd want the skill at IV regardless.

Training the skill to V would hurt a passive shield tank.
The rate at which your shields recharge over time is not constant - it scales with the amount of HP you have left. Here is a graph of it. The recharge peaks at 25% shield HP and drops of in both directions.
So when you receive damage in a passive shield tanked ship you will see that your shield HP drops at first and then stabilizes at a certain percentage depending on how high the incoming damage is.
As long as the incoming damage is lower than your peak recharge you should never drop below 25% shields anyway. (because that's were the peak recharge occurs)
If the incoming damage is slightly higher you will drop below 25%, where you then have less recharge, which means you drop even faster, where you have even less recharge... and so on. The bleed through of the damage below 25% helps you staying closer to peak recharge for longer in that case, which lets you tank a tiny little bit more before you blow up.


An argument could be made for buffer tanked fleet ships, that the armor damage isn't repaired by the logistics and thus your buffer gets lowered. However the damage bleed through is very small with the skill at IV anyway, so I wouldn't really bother with that .
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2016-04-24 20:10:58 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Adeline Lachance wrote:
Jack Hayson wrote:
The description of that skill should be "train this to IV to unlock T2 hardeners and then forget about it".

Having some damage bleed through your shields below 25% is actually desirable, because it keeps your shields longer close to peak recharge.


I'm not sure I understand. All the "hardeners" I see are armor related. Do you mean invulnerability, dissipation, ward, and deflection fields? Am I right that this would primarily be a concern for those relying on an active shield tank? Would level 5 not be preferable for those using a passive shield tank?

Hardeners (and yes, Invulnerability Fields and other modules that increase EM/Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive resistance fall under the catch-all term "hardeners") have nothing to do with it.

When you shields fall below 25% capacity there is a chance for damage to "bleed" through to armor.
The chances of bleedthrough starts at 25% and is reduced to 0% with the skill Tactical Shield Manipulation at level 5.

(basically, there is a 25% chance of bleedthrough at 25% or less shield capacity. Reduce the chance by training the skill in question)

Now here is why it is bad to train Tac-Shield Manipulation to level 5: you WANT some damage to bleed through.
The reason for this is that shields regenerate over time and you want your shields to have some "breathing room" to do so.

Still with me? Okay...

Due to some screwy math on the part of the DEVs, the regeneration rate is not uniform between minimum shields and maximum shields. You actually regenerate SLOWER at min or max shields.
Peak passive shield recharge is somewhere between 25 and 33% of max shield capacity.

Now, for active shield tankers (see: you are equipping a shield booster), this isn't too big a deal.
For passive shield tankers (see: you are relying on shield regeneration to outpace damage), this is a big deal.
For buffer shield tanker (see: you are slapping on as much raw shield HP and resistances as possible), it matters... but not too much.

How did you Veterans start?
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-04-24 20:57:20 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Hardeners (and yes, Invulnerability Fields and other modules that increase EM/Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive resistance fall under the catch-all term "hardeners") have nothing to do with it.


Well, you need the tactical shield manipulation skill to fit them.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2016-04-24 21:16:10 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Hardeners (and yes, Invulnerability Fields and other modules that increase EM/Thermal/Kinetic/Explosive resistance fall under the catch-all term "hardeners") have nothing to do with it.


Well, you need the tactical shield manipulation skill to fit them.

Indeed.

I was merely clarifying things as the OP seemed a little confused by the term "hardeners."

How did you Veterans start?
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-04-24 23:09:25 UTC
Adeline Lachance wrote:

I'm not sure I understand. All the "hardeners" I see are armor related. Do you mean invulnerability, dissipation, ward, and deflection fields? Am I right that this would primarily be a concern for those relying on an active shield tank? Would level 5 not be preferable for those using a passive shield tank?

Ship Equipment > Shield > Shield Hardeners.

Anything listed under the shield hardener category is a shield hardener. Make sure that in your market settings you have "show only available" unchecked.

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