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Marauders are now useless

First post
Author
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#21 - 2016-04-17 23:14:49 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
have you guys just not looked at the stats?


its not a flat 95% resistance to all e-war

its 95% to sensor damps weapon disruption remote assistants and tp. so it just does not resist scram and it does not give a 95% reduction to ECM it gives a 1k% to sensor strengths

If that's the case and it will stay this way then bastion mode is useless.

*95% effectiveness*
"USELESS!"
Sepheir Sepheron
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2016-04-18 16:34:33 UTC
Marauders are niche enough already please don't nerf them by removing their e-war immunity. At least, if you're going to remove it, give them something to compensate.
Endecroix
Doomheim
#23 - 2016-04-19 08:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Endecroix
This is the wrong change in my opinion. You don't mess up 95% of the usage to fix a potential problem with the other 5%. Mission running in Marauders has already been nerfed income wise with effects of the salvage rebalance. I'll be honest my first thought for defending citadels was just to plonk a vargur on the undock but correct me if I am wrong here Fozzie but wouldn't an easy counter to that just be a command destroyer if one were to allow it to catch a bastion enabled ship - it's not like you could then scram a bastion enabled ship as things currently stand to prevent that.

Just seems the wrong solution to the problem. Marauders is a massive train for little pay off already and even less of one now. The thing is with some missions you aren't just facing the one damp or tracking disruptor you are facing loads. I am not seeing Marauders dominating PVP - I am seeing an awful lot of pirate battleships though. So why nerf the longer train to the point of uselessness compared with the easier option.

Let me rephrase that to a simple question: What role do you envisage for marauders with this change.

Without good salvage - they won't excel at making ISK from missions - so tractor bonus is wasted
Without EW immunity - they'll get swamped by NPCs and won't excel at missions - so the EW immunity bonus is wasted
Without massive changes - they won't excel at PVP

Incursions - pirate battleship is best
Level 4 Missions - pirate battleship is best
Level 3 Missions - pirate battleship is best
Small gang PVP - pirate battleship is best, yep some people have used Marauders but really it's niche and because they could, you'd be well shocked if they didn't get a few nice kills at that price point. After insurance you'd be better off with a carrier.
Large scale PVP - pirate battleship fleets have doctrines, never seen a marauder one!
Wormholes - Marauders are used.

Is that the intention that Marauders are wormhole ships?

I guess I am wondering why this change has been brought about - why was it deemed needed. It can't be from a missions running and incursion point of view because the marauder is the lesser choice there. So I can only think it's from a citadel defence point of view with the timing etc. To which I'd say that I would rather the answer be something more interesting. An Lachesis damping down a golem or vargur so they can't target them effectively to stop entosis is an attritional tactic I thought the intention was to remove from the game but allowing command destroyers to scoop bastioned marauders - well that pilot would be a hero when they go that job done and that's what EVE is about at the end of the day - stories derived from players doing things with arguably seemingly mundane mechanics. What would you rather talk about - you remember that time I damped that vargur down 10km so he couldn't target us - or - remember that time I spiralled in and scooped that golem off the undock?

I've loved the changes of recent times and the push to make the game accessible for all by using smaller ships effectively but there has to be something to aim for and when you get there then there needs to be tangible benefits.

Anyway keep up the good work even if I don't agree with this one! Marauders need some love tbh not another nerf.
PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#24 - 2016-04-20 07:25:29 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
I just tested bastion mode on SISI and it is back as it is currently on TQ.
So you are once again immune to ewar.
But yea even if you are immune to ewar, you still die fast because it's basically a battleship.

I hope we can keep this immunity in the future.
Thanks Fozzie.
snorkle25
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2016-04-21 21:35:53 UTC  |  Edited by: snorkle25
Personally I really like that the total ewar immunity is going away (no one should be TOTALLY ewar immune), and I hope this is a trend that will continue. However, it does need a little tweaking in regards to NPC's. Either the current NPC mechanic is bypassing this 5% vulnerability or its too easy to get a successful hit. A few thoughts on ways to improve this although it would be harder to impliment:

ECM - increase sensor strength by a large amount (+250-350%) when in bastion, optionally, each successful jam could reduce the number of max targets by 1. Tweak as necessary to find good user balance in missions/game play.

Target Painters/Sensor Damps / Tracking Disruption: Reduce their effectiveness while in bastion mode. Two options could be to (a) reduce the effectiveness of each one by a flat % (say 75%) and include stacking penalties or (b) utilize stacking penalties in your favor by artificially inflating the number of modules active when calculating the stacking penalty. For instance, with Marauder 3 the game would give the first ewar module applied the effective stacking penalty equivalent to the 4th such module to be applied. This means large numbers of ewar would still have an effect but at most you would only lose ~15-20% effectiveness.

Scrams/Webs - Bastion module gives large warp strength bonus/breaks module lock on deactivation (forcing scram/disruptor reactivation).

I also feel that similar changes could be made to other ships that are currently ewar immune (triage/siege/supers). Yes these larger ships should be harder to counter but large coordinated efforts by sub-capitals should have some effect.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#26 - 2016-04-22 01:49:21 UTC
A simple solution to return power to Marauders. Remove the immobility on Bastion.
Now there is control over what types of Ewar it makes you immune to webs & points can still apply, so it makes you resistant to ECM/TP/TD/Damps & have really good local tank and the downside is no remote assistance.

This would actually make Marauders able to Maraud again, which requires mobility. Siege type effects are not what marauders do, and this would bring mobility and diversity back into things.

I proposed a similar thing in the carriers thread for FAX & Dreads, to stop the 'sit in one spot and blob' type of warfare, and make tactical awareness and positioning more of a thing.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#27 - 2016-04-22 08:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Remove immobility, activation of bastion renders your warp engines inoperative but you can move.

Give us our vargur back no minmatar ship should be immobile brick in space roll back speed and mass nerf to it.

Give vargur an golem range webs roll back Kronos pali webs.

Make em more than wh solo farming self tackled objects in space for game play sake.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#28 - 2016-04-22 09:08:40 UTC
Moving marauders while in bastion would be a little OP if you ask me.
Shocked
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#29 - 2016-04-22 09:26:08 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Moving marauders while in bastion would be a little OP if you ask me.
Shocked

Not if it cant leave, i do however see the bastion bonus getting slapped hard for it though,
probaby harder than anyone would like i.e. "ccpplzchangeitback" hard.
Carefull what you ask for.
PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#30 - 2016-04-22 09:38:46 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
Moving marauders while in bastion would be a little OP if you ask me.
Shocked

Not if it cant leave, i do however see the bastion bonus getting slapped hard for it though,
probaby harder than anyone would like i.e. "ccpplzchangeitback" hard.
Carefull what you ask for.

Yea, well i still think faction battleships will be way better if they nerf bastion module.
If bastion will no longer be 100% immune to NPC's, i will sell my marauders and use only faction battleships.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#31 - 2016-04-22 12:30:02 UTC
PAPULA wrote:

Yea, well i still think faction battleships will be way better if they nerf bastion module.
If bastion will no longer be 100% immune to NPC's, i will sell my marauders and use only faction battleships.

And this is why moving marauders wouldn't be OP.
They can be webbed and they can be scrammed through Bastion already with the change, so they wouldn't be immune to tackle.
cBOLTSON
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2016-04-23 04:46:02 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

if anything Marauders were totally underwhelming for a T2 Battleship.

Yea they still are, faction battleships are way better, only good thing about marauders is that they're 100% immune to ewar.


Are not all T2 battleships somewhat underwhelming?

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......

cBOLTSON
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-04-23 04:47:39 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
A simple solution to return power to Marauders. Remove the immobility on Bastion.
Now there is control over what types of Ewar it makes you immune to webs & points can still apply, so it makes you resistant to ECM/TP/TD/Damps & have really good local tank and the downside is no remote assistance.

This would actually make Marauders able to Maraud again, which requires mobility. Siege type effects are not what marauders do, and this would bring mobility and diversity back into things.

I proposed a similar thing in the carriers thread for FAX & Dreads, to stop the 'sit in one spot and blob' type of warfare, and make tactical awareness and positioning more of a thing.


A good point brought up here, I hope someone from the dev team gives this a think over.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......

PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#34 - 2016-04-23 10:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
cBOLTSON wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

if anything Marauders were totally underwhelming for a T2 Battleship.

Yea they still are, faction battleships are way better, only good thing about marauders is that they're 100% immune to ewar.


Are not all T2 battleships somewhat underwhelming?

They are compared to faction, only thing keeping marauders "better" than faction battleships is total immunity.

If you compare Vargur vs Machariel (DPS):

Vargur has 10,66672 turrets + 5 medium light drones
Machariel has 11,666725 turrets + 2 geckos + more low lots for dps or tracking.

So machariel does way more dps.
Machariel also warps faster, alignes faster and is faster then vargur.


So only thing that's better on vargur is imunity to EW, if you take that away, machariel wins 100%.
Best thing is machariel only costs 370mil, while vargur costs 1.25bil.
P

So if marauders loose 100% EW immunity, i will switch to machariel.
Reiisha
#35 - 2016-04-23 11:01:51 UTC
Sentient Blade wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here... but what is 5% of a scram?

Doesn't this neutralise dropping out of Bastion and warping / MJDing before someone tries to re-apply their previously-ineffective scrambler?


A (t1) scrambler does 1 'damage' to warp core strength.

As long as you have more than 0, you can warp. 5% of 1 is 0.05 damage, so you have 0.95 left and can warp :)

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#36 - 2016-04-23 11:05:21 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here... but what is 5% of a scram?

Doesn't this neutralise dropping out of Bastion and warping / MJDing before someone tries to re-apply their previously-ineffective scrambler?


A (t1) scrambler does 1 'damage' to warp core strength.

As long as you have more than 0, you can warp. 5% of 1 is 0.05 damage, so you have 0.95 left and can warp :)

No you can't because while in bastion, you're not warp-able.
Lol
Reiisha
#37 - 2016-04-23 11:50:18 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here... but what is 5% of a scram?

Doesn't this neutralise dropping out of Bastion and warping / MJDing before someone tries to re-apply their previously-ineffective scrambler?


A (t1) scrambler does 1 'damage' to warp core strength.

As long as you have more than 0, you can warp. 5% of 1 is 0.05 damage, so you have 0.95 left and can warp :)

No you can't because while in bastion, you're not warp-able.
Lol


Not until Citadel ;)

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#38 - 2016-04-23 14:25:40 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
PAPULA wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Sentient Blade wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something here... but what is 5% of a scram?

Doesn't this neutralise dropping out of Bastion and warping / MJDing before someone tries to re-apply their previously-ineffective scrambler?


A (t1) scrambler does 1 'damage' to warp core strength.

As long as you have more than 0, you can warp. 5% of 1 is 0.05 damage, so you have 0.95 left and can warp :)

No you can't because while in bastion, you're not warp-able.
Lol


Not until Citadel ;)

You can't warp while in bastion mode.
P
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2016-04-26 12:35:41 UTC
Look, I'll be the one to say it: the bastion mode probably need tweaking. But this isn't it. The bastion mode doesn't work on two of the four Marauders. I wasn't going to bring this up because the Devs have much more important things on their plate. But if you have time to come over here and kick Marauder pilots in the shins, then you have time to rework bastion so it fully serves all four Marauders.
PAPULA
Some Assembly Required.
#40 - 2016-04-26 13:00:25 UTC
Marauders are fine as they are currently on TQ.
No change is needed.