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Fix the T3D's domination of frigates already?

Author
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#21 - 2016-04-19 12:47:51 UTC
they arent expensive and they arent skill intensive.
Its a 50m ship which requires 1 rank 3 skill to be trained.
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
The Bastion
#22 - 2016-04-19 13:02:09 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
they arent expensive and they arent skill intensive.
Its a 50m ship which requires 1 rank 3 skill to be trained.


It's a 50 mil ship that can beat 20 mil ships. So it is relatively expensive
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#23 - 2016-04-19 13:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
price is not a balancing factor.

50m is amount of ISK, virtually everyone can pay from pocket change, thats why we see only svipul cancer all over the place.

What you say is that T3D are just a top tier of frigates. However CCP strive to removal of tiers and introducing roles. T3D have no role except of just pwn everything below.
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
The Bastion
#24 - 2016-04-19 15:07:35 UTC
Pretty much any higher "tier" ship can beat a lower "tier" ship solo. A BS can almost always beat a solo BC and below. A BC can almost always beat a solo cruiser and below. Etc.

The argument that a svipul is op because it can beat a solo frig or destroyer just seems rather weak to me. If you're having trouble with svipul's, either gang up or try to beat them through trickery.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#25 - 2016-04-19 15:21:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
Pretty much any higher "tier" ship can beat a lower "tier" ship solo. A BS can almost always beat a solo BC and below. A BC can almost always beat a solo cruiser and below. Etc.

The argument that a svipul is op because it can beat a solo frig or destroyer just seems rather weak to me. If you're having trouble with svipul's, either gang up or try to beat them through trickery.


bunch of nonsense again

you can beat a T2 dessy with T2 frigate, you can beat a battleship with a T2 dessy like sabre (done it many times) or even AF or stealth bomber, you can beat a battlecruiser with a cruiser, you can beat a tier 3 BC with a bomber or sabre, you can pwn commandy dessys with assault frigates, yet you cant realistically beat a svipul with anything which isnt svipul (which might even be hard, depending on fit) or bigger. You shouldnt even try
Bigger ships getting killed by lower class happens all the time, yet not for T3D and especially svipuls!
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2016-04-19 15:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
Pretty much any higher "tier" ship can beat a lower "tier" ship solo. A BS can almost always beat a solo BC and below. A BC can almost always beat a solo cruiser and below. Etc.

The argument that a svipul is op because it can beat a solo frig or destroyer just seems rather weak to me. If you're having trouble with svipul's, either gang up or try to beat them through trickery.


The problem is that T3D's can take on most ships the same size or smaller... AND a lot of larger ships too... and any they cant win against, its easy fo them to disengage and run...

Svipul's are the worst of them but they're all very strong. They are the right answer to too many scenarios, and not "Bad" for any.

No Worries

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#27 - 2016-04-19 15:31:58 UTC
1v1 assault frigs will give t3d's a run for the money, maybe not the svipul as ive never fought one with an assault frig but a jaguar with tracking disruptor will give a confessor the sweats, it turns out a pretty even fight.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#28 - 2016-04-19 15:34:03 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
1v1 assault frigs will give t3d's a run for the money, maybe not the svipul as ive never fought one with an assault frig but a jaguar with tracking disruptor will give a confessor the sweats, it turns out a pretty even fight.


thats prolly the reason why you'll see 1 or 2 confessors, 1 jackdaw and 1 hecate for every 10 svipuls out there.
pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#29 - 2016-04-19 19:58:17 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
Pretty much any higher "tier" ship can beat a lower "tier" ship solo. A BS can almost always beat a solo BC and below. A BC can almost always beat a solo cruiser and below. Etc.

The argument that a svipul is op because it can beat a solo frig or destroyer just seems rather weak to me. If you're having trouble with svipul's, either gang up or try to beat them through trickery.


bunch of nonsense again

you can beat a T2 dessy with T2 frigate, you can beat a battleship with a T2 dessy like sabre (done it many times) or even AF or stealth bomber, you can beat a battlecruiser with a cruiser, you can beat a tier 3 BC with a bomber or sabre, you can pwn commandy dessys with assault frigates, yet you cant realistically beat a svipul with anything which isnt svipul (which might even be hard, depending on fit) or bigger. You shouldnt even try
Bigger ships getting killed by lower class happens all the time, yet not for T3D and especially svipuls!


It takes good piloting to do the above. Are you suggesting that it doesn't? I would love to see your solo sabre kills(I'll bet none of the Bs are PvP fitted).

Frigs soloing destroyers(any destroyers) is just plain good piloting. For you to suggest that it isn't is crazy(mainly because you probably don't have any yourself).
Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
The Bastion
#30 - 2016-04-19 20:14:43 UTC
pushdogg wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
Sheeth Athonille wrote:
Pretty much any higher "tier" ship can beat a lower "tier" ship solo. A BS can almost always beat a solo BC and below. A BC can almost always beat a solo cruiser and below. Etc.

The argument that a svipul is op because it can beat a solo frig or destroyer just seems rather weak to me. If you're having trouble with svipul's, either gang up or try to beat them through trickery.


bunch of nonsense again

you can beat a T2 dessy with T2 frigate, you can beat a battleship with a T2 dessy like sabre (done it many times) or even AF or stealth bomber, you can beat a battlecruiser with a cruiser, you can beat a tier 3 BC with a bomber or sabre, you can pwn commandy dessys with assault frigates, yet you cant realistically beat a svipul with anything which isnt svipul (which might even be hard, depending on fit) or bigger. You shouldnt even try
Bigger ships getting killed by lower class happens all the time, yet not for T3D and especially svipuls!


It takes good piloting to do the above. Are you suggesting that it doesn't? I would love to see your solo sabre kills(I'll bet none of the Bs are PvP fitted).

Frigs soloing destroyers(any destroyers) is just plain good piloting. For you to suggest that it isn't is crazy(mainly because you probably don't have any yourself).


Pretty much what he said. Yes, you can beat damn near any pve fit ship with a pvp fit ship. Yes, you'll have the exceptions where a smaller pvp fit ship will beat a larger pvp fit ship, but this is not the norm.

I will agree with ChromeStriker though, their ability to disengage and run is phenomenal and could probably use some cutting back.
W0lf Crendraven
TeamTama
#31 - 2016-04-19 23:45:00 UTC
People defending the svipul, lol.
Alex Harumichi
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#32 - 2016-04-20 09:57:09 UTC
Well, various issues here.

I don't think it's wrong that an instalocker destroyer can kill frigates. That's sort of what they were built to do.

However, there are some real problems at the moment:

a) Svipuls are too good compared to the other t3ds. Part of this has to do with the insanely low fit costs of ACs, leading to the ability to fit stupid amounts of passive tank and a full set of guns. Other t3ds cannot do this, to the same degree.

b) T3ds sort of make assault frigates obsolete.

The first can (and should) be fixed by a nerf to the Svipul, putting it more in line with the others.

The second... not sure.

I love t3ds myself and don't think there's anything wrong with the ship class itself. But yeah, Svipuls could use thé nerfbat.

The same applies on the interdictor front, by the way. For each non-Sabre in 0.0 you'll encounter about 10 Sabres. They are the Svipuls of the dictor arena (and should also be nerfed a bit, imho). But that's another discussion.
Madrax573
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2016-04-20 11:52:31 UTC
Where are all these cancerous svipuls hanging out?

I'm pretty much only flying around low sec and the only svipul I see is the pve one fitted up in my rens hanger......

And pretty much every situation I've had described to me why the svipul is OP and stuff is exactly the situation destroyers were made for!

And the argument about having a ship that can up-fight to a decent degree and then run from the stuff it can't kill.......really? Are you all kindergartners?! isn't that one of the many skills you develop as a small ship pilot?
Mark Hadden
Russian Thunder Squad
WE FORM V0LTA
#34 - 2016-04-20 12:08:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Hadden
Madrax573 wrote:
Where are all these cancerous svipuls hanging out?

I'm pretty much only flying around low sec and the only svipul I see is the pve one fitted up in my rens hanger......

And pretty much every situation I've had described to me why the svipul is OP and stuff is exactly the situation destroyers were made for!

And the argument about having a ship that can up-fight to a decent degree and then run from the stuff it can't kill.......really? Are you all kindergartners?! isn't that one of the many skills you develop as a small ship pilot?


you know you just need to undock to see them. I mean, how blind and deaf one has to be in order to miss svipuls online??
Maybe leave your small plex for a change? Because thats literally the only place you wont find a svipul in, since CCP fixed it a while ago.
Mrs Ekko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-04-20 12:25:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrs Ekko
Its quite funny to read that some of the posts here are crying that a T3 destroyer beats frigates...

Thats like crying because a Citreon Saxo was beaten by a BMW M3...

A destroyer is a higher tier ship than a frigate, the designs sole purpose is to beat frigates. Same as the Battlecruiser class was implemented to beat the cruiser class.

Yes, the Svipul is strong where it is now, possibly too strong compared to other T3D's but when your crying that a T3D killed your frigate, please... thats what its designed for.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#36 - 2016-04-20 12:28:54 UTC
Mrs Ekko wrote:
Its quite funny to read that some of the posts here are crying that a T3 destroyer beats frigates...

Thats like crying because a Citreon Saxo was beaten by a BMW M3...

A destroyer is a higher tier ship than a frigate, the designs sole purpose is to beat frigates. Same as the Battlecruiser class was implemented to beat the cruiser class.

Yes, the Svipul is strong where it is now, possibly too strong compared to other T3D's but when your crying that a T3D killed your frigate, please... thats what its designed for.


Assault frigates should really be the counter to t3d's but its mostly not the case, unless the t3d was designed to be the assault frigate counter, i dont know

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

pushdogg
relocation LLC.
#37 - 2016-04-20 13:35:20 UTC
Alex Harumichi wrote:
Well, various issues here.

I don't think it's wrong that an instalocker destroyer can kill frigates. That's sort of what they were built to do.

However, there are some real problems at the moment:

a) Svipuls are too good compared to the other t3ds. Part of this has to do with the insanely low fit costs of ACs, leading to the ability to fit stupid amounts of passive tank and a full set of guns. Other t3ds cannot do this, to the same degree.

b) T3ds sort of make assault frigates obsolete.

The first can (and should) be fixed by a nerf to the Svipul, putting it more in line with the others.

The second... not sure.

I love t3ds myself and don't think there's anything wrong with the ship class itself. But yeah, Svipuls could use thé nerfbat.

The same applies on the interdictor front, by the way. For each non-Sabre in 0.0 you'll encounter about 10 Sabres. They are the Svipuls of the dictor arena (and should also be nerfed a bit, imho). But that's another discussion.


A) confessors are just as strong, the Amarr and minmatar resist profiles are perfect for the "natural" fits for these ships.

B) assault frigates have always been obsolete, every time they try to fix them they end up in the same place. In the entirety of my Eve "career" , af's have been bad. With one exception, the ishkur, but I will still find a better ship for the job.

T3 destroyers are doing the same thing that t3 cruisers did to the game when they were introduced. The only issue is that the price point put them into the hands of everyone.

You wouldn't try to take on a legion, Loki, or Proteus without some friends, so why try to do the same with the t3 line of destroyers?

Leave interdictor talk at the door, just because it's the most popular, doesn't mean you need to cry nerf on that too.
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#38 - 2016-04-20 16:05:17 UTC
t3d's are aids, instalocking is ebola - svipuls are aids and ebola.
W0lf Crendraven
TeamTama
#39 - 2016-04-20 23:41:02 UTC
The reason a dessie can beat any dessie or t1 or t2 frigate in a 1v1 (can!) and isnt op but if the svipul is able to its broken is because of the surrounding stats.

A dessie cant beat cruisers or up ever, dessies have really bad tank, , dessies can lose vs afs or t1 frigs, a dessie is slow in warp due to bad agility and is thus bad for roaming as stuff can easily catch you, especially since they also have a huge signature.

They are also slow as hell and have no chance at catching kiters, they are in fact slower then some cruisers.



The svipul will beat everything in the frig meta bar other t3ds, its super fast, can almost instawarp, has a giant tank, can easily beat most t1 or t2 cruiser in a 1v1, its an amazing roaming ship and it is still quite cheap.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#40 - 2016-04-21 05:43:01 UTC
Certainly the build costs of these ships should rise to match their power level. Would be healthy for wh space too.
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