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What we grrrrgoons going to do?

First post
Author
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#441 - 2016-04-18 03:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:

I'm sure somebody will write a nice thesis about it, but it may very turn out that those fighting for Freedom in the Pixel World care because they feel oppressed in the real one. Despite the fact it hasn't played out in-game yet, we already know what would happen if we don't stand up to civilisation - unified carebear masses under the umbrella of a "commonwealth". Some may just long the Far West had never ended, and are unwilling to repeat the mistakes of old. In the pixel world, that is.

When all things you see or do in game involve real people, it seems quite normal to pierce the veil between worlds. On one hand this is a truly amazing feat by CCP. It's also a long-winded way of say "people will be a55holes in any world."




I've often wondered about this.

On the flipside, I have wondered if the people making their game the wrecking of someone else's game (or stuff generally) are people who face a lot of RL pressure to act in certain ways. I'm sure if I was not the boss and instead a cubicle slave having to hide my package from HR lest I be deemed something undesirable and fired that would affect how I play this game.

Most notable to me is how the "quality" of piracy and nefariousness in Eve has degenerated in the same vector as society in general. That is, it's not like everybody was nice in the game at one time (nobody ever was), but it seems that those who aren't now are showing a level of "meta" to their madness. It's not like before it started getting worse things like ransoms were honored and noobs were not so easily ganked 'for lulz". Capers of players who "should have known better" getting their comeuppance or pushing things too far on a gamble (or hubris) started to trail off and get replaced with "we pretended to be his friend then took all of his stuff and ganked him and kept his pod scrammed until he logged and we ain't seen him since!! WE'RE SO LEET!!!!"

Now compare western civilization now to how it was 9 years ago.

Also I cannot help thinking that it's also along the same vector the people are getting fed up with corrupt systems in representational parties, with 2016 being that kind of year of things coming to a head finally (as the people running those systems say "this is what we are going to do, your vote never counted, so what if it wrecks your country or your life, nyah nyah nyah), and here we are in 2016 and finally after all those years CFC is being challenged.

Direct relation? I doubt it's direct. But there certainly is a "spirit" going on out of game and it may well be "seeping" into the game here.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2016-04-18 04:59:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
Stalker Ofeveryone wrote:
Goons aren't going anywhere. I think people have started believing their own propaganda. For starters the groups involved have no interest in keeping dek. They've all stated they're "burning sov", cool keep kicking over those space flags. Next, the moment PL get bored/train for AT etc, the coalition will lose the one major power carrying them around on the backs of their supers.

Let's assume they actually keep dek, cool, we'll go somewhere else. We'll be unleashed upon the great unwashed masses of highsec. With a refreshed, and agitated alliance ready to burn ****. Say what you want of the other alliances, but goons are growing in membership.

I don't think goons will collapse. They will certainly shrink, especially from Section 8 corps, but I'd be surprised if goons didn't endure.

The real question is about how long the MBC will hunt goons once Deklein is taken. The number probably increases every time Mittani gives one of those cringey 40k speeches. Honestly, they are getting embarrassing.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Sister MaryElephant
Stellar Conundrum
#443 - 2016-04-18 07:01:50 UTC
fofofofofofofofofofo

Lol

My what exciting (albeit one-sided) times we have here.

The pleasure derived from the line-by-line NaCl desiccant delivered by the estimable Mr lolLucas is exceeded only by Mittler's permanent ostrich impression........

The 2016 version of Goon is a sad shadow of 2006-2007 Goon.

Laughable.
Stalker Ofeveryone
Doomheim
#444 - 2016-04-18 07:11:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Stalker Ofeveryone
Zappity wrote:
The real question is about how long the MBC will hunt goons once Deklein is taken.


They'll probably do a half assed effort to make it look like they're still 'super duper serious', then slowly walk out the back door. I mean, the only "hunting" they're doing so far is kicking sandcastles over.
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#445 - 2016-04-18 07:30:01 UTC
Stalker Ofeveryone wrote:
I mean, the only "hunting" they're doing so far is kicking sandcastles over.

As opposed to what? Camping the Saranen undock? You are deliberately not undocking anything meaningful so you can't legitimately complain when they go after what they CAN hit.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Mithandra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#446 - 2016-04-18 09:16:00 UTC
Still here, for a given value of still, and here.

I'm getting almost as much enjoyment out of reading both sides of the forum war as I'm getting from fleeting up and not flying safe :)

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#447 - 2016-04-18 09:56:06 UTC
Loyalty makes people do such strange things doesn't it? Quite a few imperium members seem to be incapable of thinking that goons may be at an end, meanwhile the rest of eve is ripping their sov from them.

If I were goons and wanted to win, I'd use my spy network to smash a few enemies and show not to mess with goons. Find out about super movements or whatever and hit back, not all of your opponents are non-sov holders. Your whole mantra has been "blueball or decimate, aim to win" but it seems you have lost that will, sitting in saranen isn't going to win you anything.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Geronimo McVain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#448 - 2016-04-18 10:06:16 UTC
To keep moral up you need some of these:

1. Fanatics: Well, they have some
2. spoils: A loosing battle gives no spoils.
3. vision: missing, except something spezific like: We will win..........
4. Moral boosting action: missing. Even if you go down in a big BOOM it will keep your troops together because they have something to show but hiding will not only grind on the enemy.

If the leaders miss the right time Goon will not go down but fade away. Some members are complaining that they are missing chances to rat or otherwise make money. And if they wait to long MBC will tear down their capitals one by one as they take the systems and the POSs
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#449 - 2016-04-18 10:07:17 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Loyalty makes people do such strange things doesn't it? Quite a few imperium members seem to be incapable of thinking that goons may be at an end, meanwhile the rest of eve is ripping their sov from them.

If I were goons and wanted to win, I'd use my spy network to smash a few enemies and show not to mess with goons. Find out about super movements or whatever and hit back, not all of your opponents are non-sov holders. Your whole mantra has been "blueball or decimate, aim to win" but it seems you have lost that will, sitting in saranen isn't going to win you anything.


you're right, goonswarm has absolutely never lost all of its space before

buuut we actually have and we're still around

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Mithandra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#450 - 2016-04-18 10:08:17 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Loyalty makes people do such strange things doesn't it? Quite a few imperium members seem to be incapable of thinking that goons may be at an end, meanwhile the rest of eve is ripping their sov from them.

If I were goons and wanted to win, I'd use my spy network to smash a few enemies and show not to mess with goons. Find out about super movements or whatever and hit back, not all of your opponents are non-sov holders. Your whole mantra has been "blueball or decimate, aim to win" but it seems you have lost that will, sitting in saranen isn't going to win you anything.


So , you are saying that after enjoying the good times, when an alliance hits rough times pilots should just up and leave?

Seems a little self centred and small to me

Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community

Trudeaux Margaret
The Scope
#451 - 2016-04-18 11:30:17 UTC
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:


It's entirely possible that IWI has found a way to gather new 'players' to them by dividing the players that are Destroyers at Heart vs. those that are Builders at Heart.


But which group is which? Sometimes it's hard to separate the roleplay "Grr Goons" from a rather disturbing hatred of anything to do with Goonswarm.



On a personal level, I have no hatred of Goons at all. In fact, I enjoyed playing with them, although I didn't acquire any special attachment for the Imperium itself. My husband and I were early readers of SA ourselves, even though we never sprang for the forum sub fee. We read the site humor and mostly stayed away from the forums tbh, we weren't that into it, but we retain an appreciation for the basic humor to this day, and Goons can be blisteringly funny a lot of the time. Even Mittani. The problem is, I think that the cult-like atmosphere surrounding him, joke or not, has outlived its usefulness for them, and that they're selling their enemies short. I don't think they quite get how completely over the whole thing that many people are. And the more Mittani sounds like Baghdad Bob, the more his enemies have their collective resolve hardened.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#452 - 2016-04-18 11:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Mithandra wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Loyalty makes people do such strange things doesn't it? Quite a few imperium members seem to be incapable of thinking that goons may be at an end, meanwhile the rest of eve is ripping their sov from them.

If I were goons and wanted to win, I'd use my spy network to smash a few enemies and show not to mess with goons. Find out about super movements or whatever and hit back, not all of your opponents are non-sov holders. Your whole mantra has been "blueball or decimate, aim to win" but it seems you have lost that will, sitting in saranen isn't going to win you anything.


So , you are saying that after enjoying the good times, when an alliance hits rough times pilots should just up and leave?

Seems a little self centred and small to me


Not necessarily but if the orders from above are "do nothing" I personally would seriously consider going elsewhere, and tell my friends to come with me. I was more talking about the fact that most goons don't even seem to see losing as a possibility here, they have completely bought the propoganda.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Josef Djugashvilis
#453 - 2016-04-18 12:07:52 UTC
Rank and file goons are not the problem.

The problem is mittens and his ego.

This is not a signature.

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#454 - 2016-04-18 12:28:22 UTC
Stalker Ofeveryone wrote:
Goons aren't going anywhere. I think people have started believing their own propaganda. For starters the groups involved have no interest in keeping dek. They've all stated they're "burning sov", cool keep kicking over those space flags. Next, the moment PL get bored/train for AT etc, the coalition will lose the one major power carrying them around on the backs of their supers.

Let's assume they actually keep dek, cool, we'll go somewhere else. We'll be unleashed upon the great unwashed masses of highsec. With a refreshed, and agitated alliance ready to burn ****. Say what you want of the other alliances, but goons are growing in membership.


I think you're believing the propaganda a little too much. The MBC is comprised of many groups, all with individual post conflict goals. Some will keep sov, some will stop Goons from having Sov again, some will go off and do their own thing. The MBC is not one entity with a single leader, it shouldn't be measured against what the CFC is or was.

And growth in membership means nothing. What matters is dudes in space shooting other dudes and entosising structures. MC is putting out bigger fleets than the CFC can manage and they are barely a fraction of the size of GEWNS, let alone CONDI.

Aiwha
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#455 - 2016-04-18 12:41:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Loyalty makes people do such strange things doesn't it? Quite a few imperium members seem to be incapable of thinking that goons may be at an end, meanwhile the rest of eve is ripping their sov from them.

If I were goons and wanted to win, I'd use my spy network to smash a few enemies and show not to mess with goons. Find out about super movements or whatever and hit back, not all of your opponents are non-sov holders. Your whole mantra has been "blueball or decimate, aim to win" but it seems you have lost that will, sitting in saranen isn't going to win you anything.


you're right, goonswarm has absolutely never lost all of its space before

buuut we actually have and we're still around




Which is why this time the target is your competent FC's and membership count.


Sanity is fun leaving the body.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#456 - 2016-04-18 14:05:09 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I think you're believing the propaganda a little too much. The MBC is comprised of many groups, all with individual post conflict goals. Some will keep sov, some will stop Goons from having Sov again, some will go off and do their own thing. The MBC is not one entity with a single leader, it shouldn't be measured against what the CFC is or was.
And most will not be able to survive once they don't have the coalition together.

knobber Jobbler wrote:
And growth in membership means nothing. What matters is dudes in space shooting other dudes and entosising structures. MC is putting out bigger fleets than the CFC can manage and they are barely a fraction of the size of GEWNS, let alone CONDI.
Of course that's what matters to you, because that's the metric that shows you in the most positive light. But at the end of the day you can't claim to destroy goons if goons aren't destroyed, no matter how many undefended timers you win.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#457 - 2016-04-18 16:04:43 UTC
What is the difference between an impotent, docked, sovless goon and a destroyed goon?

What metrics would you suggest?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#458 - 2016-04-18 16:36:13 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
What is the difference between an impotent, docked, sovless goon and a destroyed goon?
One is a player sitting in a station part of a group the other is dead or non existent. What's happening here is goons are being outnumbered and overpowered, so they are on the retreat so they can work on survival rather than throwing ships into their death trying to defend things they know they will inevitably lose. While it's bad they've had to do that it's not nearly as bad as many are claiming.

The thing that confuses me is that TEST took a much quicker dive into the dumpster and yet still exists and has grown back to the third biggest alliance in the game and had a major part in the new biggest coalition in the game, so why people seem to think goons will be incapable of doing the same I don't really know.

Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
What metrics would you suggest?
Depends on the objective. If it's to destroy goons then goon membership numbers would be a start. We know they aren't defending systems, so sov will inevitably be taken so using that as a metric seems pretty bad unless the only objective was to remove goon sov, in which case well done. Sov used to be pretty much the metric because taking sov was hard, and so to be able to stomp through someone's sov it was a pretty big indicator that the defender was losing heavily. But as people keep pointing out sov has changed, and the view of it has to change too. It's much more fluid than it used to be.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Josef Djugashvilis
#459 - 2016-04-18 16:40:14 UTC
Wow Lucas, you used to be quite dry and witty in the forums, is the war affecting you that much?

Lighten up a bit.

Even if the goons lose practically everything, look at the fun and scheming to be had trying to get it all back again.

This is not a signature.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#460 - 2016-04-18 17:27:46 UTC
I'm lightened up, no worries P
So far I'm still net positive on the war so all is good.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.