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Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1881 - 2016-04-18 02:04:26 UTC
So this is a fix caused by the lack of numbers Logging on due to the unlimited skill que.

So if I had a choice of a 24 hour skill que or the unlimited skill que and the daily rewards system. I will take the unlimited skill que and take the bitter daily opportunities. I only log in and actively play once a week most times.

Though I would prefer a lesser amount as the reward.

Sure the other guy may be earning more than me upto 20%, but they are also putting them selves at risk of loss of ISK, and grinding some time to complete a menial task. Their effect is minor to me because they are not flooding the market, With the character bizzar in 2007 in operation a newbie could out point me with cash already.

In the end there are 2 resources: real life money and time played, ISK, SP, Items, Aurum all can be bought either directly or indirectly via these two methods. This Daily rewards, knee jerk as it is to me emotionally, in the king run is a 'meh' thing when looking in the big picture how it effects me directly.

On the other hand if it increases log ins and more ships in space, will mean a longer lasting game and my skill points I have earned over the last 9 years will still continue to provide me with benefits in many years to come.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1882 - 2016-04-18 03:05:33 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
So this is a fix caused by the lack of numbers Logging on due to the unlimited skill que.

So if I had a choice of a 24 hour skill que or the unlimited skill que and the daily rewards system. I will take the unlimited skill que and take the bitter daily opportunities. I only log in and actively play once a week most times.

Though I would prefer a lesser amount as the reward.

Sure the other guy may be earning more than me upto 20%, but they are also putting them selves at risk of loss of ISK, and grinding some time to complete a menial task. Their effect is minor to me because they are not flooding the market, With the character bizzar in 2007 in operation a newbie could out point me with cash already.

In the end there are 2 resources: real life money and time played, ISK, SP, Items, Aurum all can be bought either directly or indirectly via these two methods. This Daily rewards, knee jerk as it is to me emotionally, in the king run is a 'meh' thing when looking in the big picture how it effects me directly.

On the other hand if it increases log ins and more ships in space, will mean a longer lasting game and my skill points I have earned over the last 9 years will still continue to provide me with benefits in many years to come.


This is a fairly reasonable way of accepting the situation. I find myself in a similar position. Resignation is much easier than beating your head against the wall.

I have decided to trim from six down to five accounts, because I don't feel like managing six daily opportunities every time I log in. I also don't feel that the game is on a great trajectory. I am not ready to bail out, because I still love my corporation, but the game play gets less and less fun. Spending basically three straight weekends lighting cynos and waiting off jump fatigue is a great way to get burned out on Eve. Fortunately, starting Tuesday, I'll be on vacation for a week or so. Hopefully I come back rejuvenated just in time for the next patch.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1883 - 2016-04-18 04:32:59 UTC
To a certain extent I expect the next news on this will be discussions at Fanfest. If you are going the keep an eye open for PvE and engagement roundtables. Wish I could be there but I cannot.

A lot of you have done a great job of presenting your objections. I agree with some of them, others I don't. Some we on the CSM argued already. But our time is coming to an end. I recommend you start getting in contact with your new reps as soon as they are announced.

If this matters to you keep the calm steady pressure on.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#1884 - 2016-04-18 04:35:51 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
To a certain extent I expect the next news on this will be discussions at Fanfest. If you are going the keep an eye open for PvE and engagement roundtables. Wish I could be there but I cannot.

A lot of you have done a great job of presenting your objections. I agree with some of them, others I don't. Some we on the CSM argued already. But our time is coming to an end. I recommend you start getting in contact with your new reps as soon as they are announced.

If this matters to you keep the calm steady pressure on.

m

Seeing you without a CSM tag feels so *wrong*

Thank you for your service.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1885 - 2016-04-18 05:09:27 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
To a certain extent I expect the next news on this will be discussions at Fanfest. If you are going the keep an eye open for PvE and engagement roundtables. Wish I could be there but I cannot.

A lot of you have done a great job of presenting your objections. I agree with some of them, others I don't. Some we on the CSM argued already. But our time is coming to an end. I recommend you start getting in contact with your new reps as soon as they are announced.

If this matters to you keep the calm steady pressure on.

m


Thanks, Mike.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

soliketotallydude
Doomheim
#1886 - 2016-04-18 07:17:40 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Most missions involve killing more than 1 rat. And many of them take longer than the "coffee break" Rise was blathering about.

An L1 mission takes rather less time than a typical coffee break (like... a minute tops in something like a beam confessor), and would be perfectly sufficient.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#1887 - 2016-04-18 07:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashterothi
What would be nice is that would actually make Level 1s have a meaningful purpose. Which would be nice, because some of them can be quite fun depending on the ship you bring.

Kinda like burners but with low quality equipment.

edit: They could also make level 1s more prominent, and add anoms to the list of things you can do, low tier anoms can be taken out pretty quick as well.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1888 - 2016-04-18 08:15:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Ashterothi wrote:
What would be nice is that would actually make Level 1s have a meaningful purpose. Which would be nice, because some of them can be quite fun depending on the ship you bring.

Kinda like burners but with low quality equipment.

edit: They could also make level 1s more prominent, and add anoms to the list of things you can do, low tier anoms can be taken out pretty quick as well.


Would it though? People are saying that this is going to be a frustrating game mechanic as it is. If the requirements get shifted up from killing one rat to completing a level one missions, it's going to be even worse.

Mike Azariah wrote:
To a certain extent I expect the next news on this will be discussions at Fanfest. If you are going the keep an eye open for PvE and engagement roundtables. Wish I could be there but I cannot.

A lot of you have done a great job of presenting your objections. I agree with some of them, others I don't. Some we on the CSM argued already. But our time is coming to an end. I recommend you start getting in contact with your new reps as soon as they are announced.

If this matters to you keep the calm steady pressure on.

m


See, here's the thing - if this has been discussed with the CSM, why did it make it through? Did the CSM not object? Were their objections just ignored? I don't know, but either way they have effectively done nothing. My confidence was already low after the replacement fiasco and now it's even lower. I simply do not believe in it as an effective tool.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#1889 - 2016-04-18 08:22:38 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
What would be nice is that would actually make Level 1s have a meaningful purpose. Which would be nice, because some of them can be quite fun depending on the ship you bring.

Kinda like burners but with low quality equipment.

edit: They could also make level 1s more prominent, and add anoms to the list of things you can do, low tier anoms can be taken out pretty quick as well.


Would it though? People are saying that this is going to be a frustrating game mechanic as it is. If the requirements get shifted up from killing one rat to completing a level one missions, it's going to be even worse.


Oh no my suggestions have been and continue to be a much more comprehensive change to a much more nuanced system. I was just commenting that a completion of a level 1 mission as a trigger for this thing, if it must exist, is a much more elegant one then the one currently offered.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1890 - 2016-04-18 08:24:02 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
What would be nice is that would actually make Level 1s have a meaningful purpose. Which would be nice, because some of them can be quite fun depending on the ship you bring.

Kinda like burners but with low quality equipment.

edit: They could also make level 1s more prominent, and add anoms to the list of things you can do, low tier anoms can be taken out pretty quick as well.


Would it though? People are saying that this is going to be a frustrating game mechanic as it is. If the requirements get shifted up from killing one rat to completing a level one missions, it's going to be even worse.


Oh no my suggestions have been and continue to be a much more comprehensive change to a much more nuanced system. I was just commenting that a completion of a level 1 mission as a trigger for this thing, if it must exist, is a much more elegant one then the one currently offered.


It's also much worse. People in wormholes get stiffed immediately. Amongst other objections I have against it.
Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#1891 - 2016-04-18 08:27:39 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
What would be nice is that would actually make Level 1s have a meaningful purpose. Which would be nice, because some of them can be quite fun depending on the ship you bring.

Kinda like burners but with low quality equipment.

edit: They could also make level 1s more prominent, and add anoms to the list of things you can do, low tier anoms can be taken out pretty quick as well.


Would it though? People are saying that this is going to be a frustrating game mechanic as it is. If the requirements get shifted up from killing one rat to completing a level one missions, it's going to be even worse.


Oh no my suggestions have been and continue to be a much more comprehensive change to a much more nuanced system. I was just commenting that a completion of a level 1 mission as a trigger for this thing, if it must exist, is a much more elegant one then the one currently offered.


It's also much worse. People in wormholes get stiffed immediately. Amongst other objections I have against it.

As I mentioned anoms would be included. You would also be able to more laterally spread out to other things such as exploration sites.

Watch me live for all your Empyrean news and analysis!

Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1892 - 2016-04-18 08:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Ashterothi wrote:
As I mentioned anoms would be included. You would also be able to more laterally spread out to other things such as exploration sites.


Imagine that you live in a high-class wormhole. Exploration sites have sleepers in them. Everything does, and the site is a bit beyond trivial to clear. Not to mention what's going to happen once the new drifter bosses get implemented. This thing will be a nightmare to implement properly. It will probably need to be iterated on afterwards too.
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#1893 - 2016-04-18 09:22:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Shallanna Yassavi
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


I meant a mission for the faction/corp you want to keep your standings. They should not ask you to kill rats that will destroy your standings toward them...


Most missions involve killing more than 1 rat. And many of them take longer than the "coffee break" Rise was blathering about.


And you can't just kill one rat because if you fail you lose standings

You can keep coming back to the mission once a day for a week until you have to complete it. I haven't tried blowing up all the rats and coming back after a reset, but they might regenerate.

I know I was poking at some an L4 in a ship which had problems with them, and had to come back a day later because I'd kited them over the entry beacon for the first room. After downtime, the rats had all reset to their original locations so I could finish the mission the next day.

A signature :o
Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#1894 - 2016-04-18 09:27:42 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

What I meant is not about the balance on the 4 kind of players but something directly linked to EVE mechanics :

Nearly every thing that you can use has to be built by players or farmed by players


If we take the amount of "stuff" (ships, modules, ammunitions), most PvE players are CREATING stuff while PvP players are destroying it.

There is a small drain present in PvE... you may lose your ship to NPC, when you reprocess something, some of the materials is lost, ... That drain may easily be increased (more difficult missions for example). And you find a big drain in PvP (each kill result in most of the stuff lost).

But, as far as "stuff" creation exists it's nearly only on the PvE side. PvP *MAY* get some LP which allow to buy some things from NPC but this is quire marginal... On the other side, Miners (ore), industrials (ships, modules,...), explorers (datacores, salvage, ...), missionners (ships, modules, LP, salvage) bring lots of new "stuff".

If you remove the PvP (or strongly deacrease it), there will still be drains (and these may be made stronger) on the PvE side... but if you remove the PvE side, stuff in EVE will quickly be destroyed and EVE economy reach a stop.

This is a consequence of the "everything is built by players" stance... And introducing NPC shops for every single module and ship would probably kill EVE quickly too...


You don't think any of the PVP'ers also create stuff (Ratting, exploration, manufactoring, mining, PI etc.) to earn enough to PVP? That is why these type of discussions are so tedious, as there would always be someone to produce modules and other stuff, even if people who only do PVE leaves. The profits as supply drops would be too tempting to ignore.

And as a side note (with the two videos in mind) I think all the focus on PVP from CCPs side, is their way to make the population healthy again (According to CCP). Increase the amount of PVP players to trim the fat of the achievers (pure PVE'ers) to get the balance of players they want. For a MMO that try to sell itself as an PVP sandbox, it has quite a lot of non pvp'ers (62% some people claim). One way to gain this balance is to buff PVP, and loose some (not all ofc.) of the pure PVE'ers.


At least some PvPers keep hisec mining and/or mission alts to keep the lights on. This feature would push them to PvE on their mains.

A signature :o
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#1895 - 2016-04-18 15:37:22 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Well, the dailies will just enhance the missing SP problem. Can't log in today? Enjoy your 10,000 SP loss. But don't worry, if you miss any, you can make it back by, you guessed it, buying skill injectors!


How the hell do you lose 10k SP you never had in the first place?


By that argument CCP could achieve the same goal far more effectively and with far less effective discrimination between player activity by simply removing the skillqueue altogether. Don't log in? No more SP for you, just like it used to be in 2007.

After all, no one would be losing anything, right?


No one would be losing any SP. It's still CCP's choice how they want to achieve something. If they want to eliminate the skillqueu, they'll face a different backlash from the playerbase and they know that. They know the "infinite" skillqueue is what cost them the extra log-ins they use to have. Why they are going with opportunity instead of just backing out on the queue change is something we probably never will really know.

BTW, the skillqueu being nothing would probably not bring as much log-ins as a daily mostly because we can all train skills that last way over 24 hours. Even newbies can train a few days long without having to put a new skill in.



They do NOT know any of that. It's CCP Rises interpretation of lower numbers. Considering all the other unpopular changes that CCP has introduced, like fozzie sov (best compared to cancer) and fixation with small gang PvP, it's not very strange that numbers are up as all the available data points to players actually liking huge fights and big wars. Current numbers are up not because CCP is making us grind every day but because there is a real war in the game.

CCP has over and over demonstrated complete lack of any form of understanding for their own game and even less of statistics. Look at the heavily advertised Citadel expansion. After the expansion the optimal solution is still going to be to have all your assets in the perfectly safe NPC station. Russians are the only powerful group left that is staging in 0.0 and it's a question when they will admit that NPC stations are far superior (as Imperium was forced by the recent war).
Drammie Askold
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#1896 - 2016-04-18 16:03:21 UTC
Udonor wrote:


#1 I realize the simple login goal is necessary but this smells of running up login stats for external investors as real immediate purpose.



This.

As the blessed St. Reptilicus said "Some days you can't get a drink on the cuff anyplace."
Zet Soirn
Soirn Enterprises
#1897 - 2016-04-18 16:54:45 UTC
Oooooooooh... Vets mad... Real maaaad..

Just like they were mad, when Injectors were introduced, but now they enjoy the cash they get from selling their "precious" SPs without a "beep". If you sell your SPs so eagerly, it just shows that you value them way less than actual new players (like me), who actually need them.

Yea, yea, you´ve had it "harder" (subbed and docked for 13 years, racking up the SPs).
But also your situation was different, there wasn´t such a huge SP gap between Rookies and Vets. Huge gap to be any competitive. But now there is. And CCP knows and tries to do something about it. Yes, they are TRYING, this ain´t final.

I get it. You feel threatened. Less money for selling SPs, your "e-peen" urge to do the daily with all your 12 alts on 4 accounts could prove unbearable. Less smug for you, when it comes to setting up yourselves on piedestals.

You don´t have to do those dailies. You also believe they are bringing them, because increasing online numbers? *puts on tinfoil hat*. Jesus, everything has to be a conspiracy with you, guys.

Dailies? Not much of a fan.
SP boosts for Rookies? That I like.
NovaCat13
Ember Interstellar Inc.
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#1898 - 2016-04-18 16:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: NovaCat13
Zet Soirn wrote:
Oooooooooh... Vets mad... Real maaaad..

Just like they were mad, when Injectors were introduced, but now they enjoy the cash they get from selling their "precious" SPs without a "beep". If you sell your SPs so eagerly, it just shows that you value them way less than actual new players (like me), who actually need them.

Yea, yea, you´ve had it "harder" (subbed and docked for 13 years, racking up the SPs).
But also your situation was different, there wasn´t such a huge SP gap between Rookies and Vets. Huge gap to be any competitive. But now there is. And CCP knows and tries to do something about it. Yes, they are TRYING, this ain´t final.

I get it. You feel threatened. Less money for selling SPs, your "e-peen" urge to do the daily with all your 12 alts on 4 accounts could prove unbearable. Less smug for you, when it comes to setting up yourselves on piedestals.

You don´t have to do those dailies. You also believe they are bringing them, because increasing online numbers? *puts on tinfoil hat*. Jesus, everything has to be a conspiracy with you, guys.

Dailies? Not much of a fan.
SP boosts for Rookies? That I like.


Besides coming here to bash on vets did you even attempt to read CCPs remarks on this matter? Half of what you said isn't even valid taking into account their own words. EDIT: You know what, I take it back not a single thing you said is valid.

Just say NO to Dailies
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#1899 - 2016-04-18 17:03:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhir
Zet Soirn wrote:

Dailies? Not much of a fan.
SP boosts for Rookies? That I like.


You will find that many of us will support mechanics that makes it easier for newbies to gain skills. Personally I think they should expand on the Career Agents and make them reward SP for new players. And I would also support the removal of learning implants and attributes in general so newbies don't have to deal with implants and remaps.

Dailies on the other hand are just cancer. No matter if you are new or old.

Zet Soirn wrote:

You don´t have to do those dailies. You also believe they are bringing them, because increasing online numbers? *puts on tinfoil hat*. Jesus, everything has to be a conspiracy with you, guys.


If you read Rise's reply you will see that it:
1. Is not aimed for making newbies train skills faster
2. Is in fact aimed at making people log in.

So please pay attention before you post **** like that. It makes you look like a moron.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Zet Soirn
Soirn Enterprises
#1900 - 2016-04-18 17:04:25 UTC
NovaCat13 wrote:
Zet Soirn wrote:
Oooooooooh... Vets mad... Real maaaad..

Just like they were mad, when Injectors were introduced, but now they enjoy the cash they get from selling their "precious" SPs without a "beep". If you sell your SPs so eagerly, it just shows that you value them way less than actual new players (like me), who actually need them.

Yea, yea, you´ve had it "harder" (subbed and docked for 13 years, racking up the SPs).
But also your situation was different, there wasn´t such a huge SP gap between Rookies and Vets. Huge gap to be any competitive. But now there is. And CCP knows and tries to do something about it. Yes, they are TRYING, this ain´t final.

I get it. You feel threatened. Less money for selling SPs, your "e-peen" urge to do the daily with all your 12 alts on 4 accounts could prove unbearable. Less smug for you, when it comes to setting up yourselves on piedestals.

You don´t have to do those dailies. You also believe they are bringing them, because increasing online numbers? *puts on tinfoil hat*. Jesus, everything has to be a conspiracy with you, guys.

Dailies? Not much of a fan.
SP boosts for Rookies? That I like.


Besides coming here to bash on vets did you even attempt to read CCPs remarks on this matter? Half of what you said isn't even valid taking into account their own words. EDIT: You know what, I take it back not a single thing you said is valid.


Same way you people bash on CCP and anyone, who disagree?