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48 hour kill time for Citadels in WH space

Author
RemSalak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-04-13 17:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: RemSalak
I'm just getting caught up on all the talk of citadels and I came across this little gem saying it would only take 48 hours to kill a citadel in WH space, AND that when it dies you lose everything inside it.

I find this to be the most ridiculous rule set up CCP has come up with in a long time.

With the changes to Citadels where they are trying very hard to bring some degree of small(er) gang warfare with damage caps against structures to help deal with the bigger blob wins mentality instead of actually trying to fix it they instead force feed it as a requirement into the hands of WH dwellers.

Good bye small WH corps who are just trying to enjoy the game, because the much larger WH gangs can just log off some of their alts chars in your WH for a mere 2 days to destroy everything you've worked for.

WH traffic control is ENTIRELY about blobbing.

By taking it from 1 week, to "48 hours" you're giving all of the cards to the big WH alliances, completely screwing over the little guys. STUPID

I thought you were working to make Citadel a better game experience all EVE players. but you're not. You are actually screwing over a decent sized portion of players who enjoy the WH experience. Not everyone has 20+ corp mates to log into EVE with and run around WH space for 12+ hours a day.

Not all of us want that. Many of us just want to play some spaceships when we have time. Now we can't even do that.

So not only has CCP lost around 25% of it's playerbase in the last year, it's going to lose more when these absolutely ******** changes come into effect for WH's.

ALSO - to the MORON dev that said that guns where a false sense of security.... IT WAS NEVER ABOUT THE GUNS. it was always about having the shield around you giving you a small safe haven from the large roaming blobs that smaller WH corps couldn't deal with. It's abvious you've NEVER lived in WH space and yet you are some how designing new features for it.

CCP once again proves just how weak they are caving in to the CSM guys who represent those larger WH alliances looking to grief the small guy.

Congratulations CCP you've just helped the blob win.
Borsek
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-04-13 17:41:24 UTC
Afaik you can still move things in/out of hangars when it's reinforced, unlike a Pos. Also bigger groups are able to **** on little guys anyway, it just takes 1d14h max at the moment, whereas you will have an extra 10h, in your preferred tz in the future.

So yeah, you can't just log alts, as that would mean the residents could evac in the meantime.
RemSalak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2016-04-13 18:02:34 UTC
Borsek wrote:
Afaik you can still move things in/out of hangars when it's reinforced, unlike a Pos. Also bigger groups are able to **** on little guys anyway, it just takes 1d14h max at the moment, whereas you will have an extra 10h, in your preferred tz in the future.

So yeah, you can't just log alts, as that would mean the residents could evac in the meantime.



Let me put this into perspective.

Show me a group of EVE players that have the determination to stick around a WH for a week to wipe out a small corps assets they've gained over potential months.

- only the ones you've really pissed off.

Now show me a list of EVE players that will stick around for 48 hours to troll/grief a small corp simply because they wouldn't "give gud fights" because they were outnumbered 5:1.

- nearly every large WH corp/alliance in exsistance.

see the difference?

for a 48 hour timer you would still have to maintain a presence to prevent asset evac. it should be more like 96 hours AT A MINIMUM.

they've made WH space only for larger groups. Hence emphasis once again placed on the blob. Now some idiot will likely say " but you've got to deal with WH mass" yeah. WH mass with 30+ T3's.... wanna try again?
Ahmed Ibn Rustah
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2016-04-13 18:48:14 UTC
I disagree with the OP here - you are forgetting the vulnerability times. If you had a medium Citadel it can only be attacked for 30 mins a day and that time does not have to be the same each day. In fact some days it wont ever be vulnerable! Also remember that unlike POS's, weapons cant be incapped so you can shoot all the time.

Using your points - find me a corp that will spend ages actively logged in, watching your Citadel to work out those 30 min timers. TBH unless you have totally pissed someone off it wont be worth it.

Yea sure the first few Citadels will be hunted and killed for the KM's/tears/first factor, but thats expected.

Finally these structures strongly encourage you to use your space, not just anchor something and then login once a week to refill reactions etc
Borsek
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-04-13 19:15:35 UTC
Well, we've been evicted, and have evicted people, for various reasons. I hate change too, but OP - You're just salty for no good reason, admit it. Also, I never had more than half of my assets in W-space. If you have 'everything' in the wh you're a ******.

And yes, I was on a few ops where we camped a hole and murdered the residents for 36h+, in some cases just because we could, pretty much.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2016-04-13 20:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Hayson
RemSalak wrote:
Good bye small WH corps who are just trying to enjoy the game, because the much larger WH gangs can just log off some of their alts chars in your WH for a mere 2 days to destroy everything you've worked for.

They can do that already.
That's why the citadel mechanics were adjusted for w-space - to keep the status quo.
Pretagos Omilas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2016-04-13 21:49:20 UTC
Wait, so do I understand you correctly? You are complaining about Citadels not giving you enough protection, yet from all we currently know Citadels are the most carebear friendly structures in eve ever? The owner gets to chose the vulnerability time and unlike POCOs _all_ the bashing/fights are gonna happen at the carebears prime time. That in its own is ridiculous (don't get me started on assets being 100% safe in k-space).

Also what are you talking about a week? As Borsek wrote you only had to hold wh control for less than two days with POSes on a fully stronted POS - so again hurray for the carebears getting some extra time now. Maybe you should consider living in wh space if that's to dangerous for you (please don't I'd like to visit you)
Jack Miton
Perkone
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-04-14 05:03:31 UTC
Hi there mr npc alt!

Did you know that it currently it takes 41 hours to kill a POS in WH space!
48 hours gives you a FREE extra full SEVEN hours to cry about your misfortune before losing everything you own, isnt that amazing?!?!

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/mt/2014/09/The_More_You_Know/lead_large.png

There is no Bob.

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Sheeth Athonille
Rabid Dogz Mining
The Bastion
#9 - 2016-04-14 17:03:38 UTC
Where are you getting a week from? Not including the actual bashing, a POS only gets 42 hours when reinforced.

Unless you're trying to factor in multiple POS's (which doesn't make any sense since the attackers would just ref them one after another) how the hell are you getting a week?
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#10 - 2016-04-14 18:11:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
The week is what normal Citadels in kspace will have. OP still didn't explain though how getting MORE time added compared to the status quo is a change for the bad.

About the vulnerability window... I assumed that every Citadel will show when it is going to be vulnerable, to everyone looking at it. If that is not true and we actually have to watch that damned thing for a full week to find out, that will really be a paradise for defenders. But I find that hard to believe.

edit: Reading the relevant blog again, it seems that the full vulnerability calendar will be invisible to attackers, but we will always see when a citadel will end its current state. So if I come into a system and look at a citadel that is in its usual state (invulnerable), I will see in how many hours it will become vulnerable.

So if for example a corp has a medium citadel and sets the vulnerability hours to Monday, Wednesday and Friday from 19 to 20 GMT, and I enter their system and start to observe on Sunday at 18 GMT, then I will see that the next chance to attack is in 25 hours. But I will not know if the windows then will be 3 hours, or 2 or just one, and when the other time slots for attack might be.

.

Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#11 - 2016-04-14 18:19:20 UTC
I share your concers regarding citadels and the reduced bar to evict someone -
Unfortunately the time to prevent the implementation of this features (namely the reduced reinforced timer compared to k-space and the no asset safety in j-space) is long since past.

The most likely final design decisions were made during/after this
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=440462&find=unread discussion -
Where, for the most part, the bigger corps voiced their opinion - so it´s no suprise in what direction those changes were pushed.
A few of us, members of smaller corps tried to fight this, but as you can see given the changes we have to expect, we were quite unsuccesfull.

I have hopes, that perhaps when the exact mechanics are gonna be realesed that there might be a sliver of hope ... but we are preparing for the worst ... perhaps you should too.
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#12 - 2016-04-14 18:40:31 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
The week is what normal Citadels in kspace will have. OP still didn't explain though how getting MORE time added compared to the status quo is a change for the bad.

About the vulnerability window... I assumed that every Citadel will show when it is going to be vulnerable, to everyone looking at it. If that is not true and we actually have to watch that damned thing for a full week to find out, that will really be a paradise for defenders. But I find that hard to believe.


He did, acutally -

RemSalak wrote:
Now show me a list of EVE players that will stick around for 48 hours to troll/grief a small corp simply because they wouldn't "give gud fights" because they were outnumbered 5:1.

- nearly every large WH corp/alliance in exsistance.


That´s the same argument i used back in the structure board and sounding bloc -
When citadels hit and a big corp have a smaller corp in their chain and they notice that their Citadel is vulnerable they will engage that citadel to force a fight out of the residents.
Then unlike under the POS mechanic given enough force you won´t take hours but half an hour to reinforce it (effectively reducing the bar for evictions). (even without dreads thanks to the nice damage cap)
So as the small guy you have two options one worse than the other - either dock up your ships to be slaughtered and therefore hopefully prevent a reinforcment or you don´t and your citadel gets reinforced.
And after it is reinforced it doesn´t matter if the attacker intended to evict you or just wanted a "fight" and leaves thereafter.
You will be left with a reinforced strucuture and as we all know in j-space it happens regularly basis that those who started an evciton aren´t the ones finishing it. (unlike in k-space)
So every corp which is your chain 48h later will most likely end the job.
And blow up your assets, where 50% will drop.
A major difference to what we have now - then under the POS mechanic as the defender who lost you actually can be a"griever" and self destruct all your ships therby reduce the expected loot to a minimum somehting the citadels will prevent.
So the loot Pinata is there ripe for the taking - In other words CCP is creating a Financial incentive to evict someone.
And the ones who are gonna be on the receiving end of this will be the smaller corps.

On this note - we all should hope that the big power blocks in null never get the idea to earn their isk this way -

And we know what you usually do after you have been evicted -
A very small percentage will in an act of defiance return to j-space,
a bigger percentage will move elsewhere null or lowsec and there will be the ones quitting eve alltogether.
Overall reducing the population in j-space - which in my opinion is small as it is.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#13 - 2016-04-14 18:47:42 UTC
Saying that it will be easier to evict is simply ridiculous. It will be harder. That is a fact.

48 hours instead of 41.

Attack can only happen during hours set by the owner - no way to miss the attack because attackers wait until you go to bed and then start shooting, as is common now.

Vastly improved combat capabilities of the structure (if player-controlled).

Combine that with damage mitigation (big blob will not do any more damage than a just adequate force) and attacker will have to be significantly stronger than defender to win.

Potential complete loss of assets can mostly be avoided by logging off most valuable items in a ship. Your most valuable ships you can protect in a similar way by storing them in a logged-off Bowhead, except capitals.

Just setting all your vulnerability times to somewhere not on the weekend will probably protect from any attack, unless attacker actually wants to inhabit your system or really hates you.

.

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#14 - 2016-04-14 18:55:07 UTC
Samsara Nolte wrote:

Then unlike under the POS mechanic given enough force you won´t take hours but half an hour to reinforce it (effectively reducing the bar for evictions). (even without dreads thanks to the nice damage cap)
So as the small guy you have two options one worse than the other - either dock up your ships to be slaughtered and therefore hopefully prevent a reinforcment or you don´t and your citadel gets reinforced.
And after it is reinforced it doesn´t matter if the attacker intended to evict you or just wanted a "fight" and leaves thereafter.
You will be left with a reinforced strucuture and as we all know in j-space it happens regularly basis that those who started an evciton aren´t the ones finishing it. (unlike in k-space)
So every corp which is your chain 48h later will most likely end the job.


Is it really different now? Finishing off a reinforced POS now is also very easy and doesn't take longer for a big force... actually it only takes minutes with a dread or two, faster than it will be with Citadels.

And repairing the structure will be automatic and only take 30 minutes. Repping up a damaged POS now takes much longer, requires manual work and provides a longer window for attack.

The owner has some influence by controlling his connections before his Citadel becomes vulnerable. Keep the static closed and rage-close any incoming hole.

So again, I see it getting better for the defender, not worse.

.

Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#15 - 2016-04-14 19:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Samsara Nolte wrote:

And after it is reinforced it doesn´t matter if the attacker intended to evict you or just wanted a "fight" and leaves thereafter.
You will be left with a reinforced strucuture and as we all know in j-space it happens regularly basis that those who started an evciton aren´t the ones finishing it. (unlike in k-space)
So every corp which is your chain 48h later will most likely end the job.


Btw, this is not accurate. It is not a 2-step process but 3 steps, which makes a huge difference.

The first attack happens and is successful, bringing down shields to 0% -> citadel becomes invulnerable for (probably) 20-24 hours. Then armor becomes vulnerable. If attacked and brought to 0% -> invulerable again for 20-24 hours. After that, structure is vulnerable. If it also goes to 0%, only then the citadel is destroyed. If no attacker shows up for step 2, then step 3 never happens.

So if some bored big baddie corp shoots your citadel's shields to 0% Friday at 20 GMT (because you were stupid enough to make it vulnerable then), it will be invulnerable until probably 20 GMT on Saturday. But if another big baddie corp rolls into you then, they can only shoot the armor, then it will again be invulnerable. Then on Sunday at 20 GMT a third attacker can come and finish it.

This means that either an attacker has to commit to the siege and come all three times to shoot, or you have to be extremely unlucky, because you controlled your connections on Saturday AND on Sunday but had the singularly bad luck that on BOTH days, big baddie corps roll into you at just the right time to grief you.

edit: Biggest problem I see is that whoever deploys the first Citadels will almost certainly lose them because they are new and everyone will want to kill one. To be honest no smart person will put up a Citadel in the first few months unless they are really big and powerful or actually look forward to fighting over their Citadel. Corps that wouldn't normally attract any attention will become hot targets just for having a Citadel.

Smart people will continue to use a POS until the novelty of Citadels wears off.

.

Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
#16 - 2016-04-14 19:16:28 UTC
The combination of citadels + storage pos will make evictions a lot harder.
No more rfing in defenders afk tz.

~lvl 60 paladin~

Borsek
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2016-04-14 21:13:12 UTC
Lemme just dump this here: You live in a hole, you set up 3 citadels with varying timers. Being a risk averse bear you set them up so you can warp to another one from undock. You get attacked, and the attackers literally have to camp you for up to 9 days in order to smoke you out completely. In the meantime you can trickle ISK out when possible and have enough time to logoffski alts in caps and or call for reinforcements.

Yet you decide to cry about this like a person with extra chromosomes, and on top of all this, you want all of your loot back? Basically you want W-space to be hisec with better income or what? Gtfo.
Pretagos Omilas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2016-04-15 14:26:00 UTC
Borsek wrote:
(...)
Basically you want W-space to be hisec with better income or what? Gtfo.


Exactly - and if he'd get exactly that and have CONCORD "protect" him in J-space he'd be crying about evil suicide gankers...
StonerPhReaK
Herb Men
#19 - 2016-04-17 01:06:26 UTC
OP sounds like the exact type of guy that shouldn't live in a wormhole. In my opinion no class of wormhole should be able to be 'lived in' by small groups of any type of gameplay. I'm actually shocked the playerbase of EvE's nature has even allowed it to get this bad. We should all be ashamed of ourselves. We can only hope the drifters will help put pressure on smaller groups thinking of delving into what should be one of the most dangerous areas of evespace outside of (currently) Uedama (Read: nullsec).

Signatures wer cooler when we couldn't remove them completely.

Lord Okinaba
Aliastra
#20 - 2016-04-17 11:27:41 UTC
I have no issue with complete loss upon destruction, but it should apply to citadels in Low sec and null sec too. WH dwellers are being short changed here.

And don't come at me with the lore crap that WH is unknown space and therefor not feasible. Please explain the lore behind stuff being magically transported from anywhere without haulers moving it.
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