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Attention CCP: Find a way to bring back Tony Gonzales

Author
Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
#21 - 2012-01-11 18:42:41 UTC
Ando Ohmiras wrote:

Point being; before throwing those proverbial stones, perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt, and look for alternative interpretations.


I'd like to point out that TonyG has been given the benefit of the doubt, and both books have dozens of inconsistencies, minor, major and stupendous. I'm sure Jowen will be more than willing to provide a list. As I recall, there's one on Backstage somewhere.
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#22 - 2012-01-11 21:06:57 UTC
Milo Caman wrote:
Ando Ohmiras wrote:

Point being; before throwing those proverbial stones, perhaps we should give the benefit of the doubt, and look for alternative interpretations.


I'd like to point out that TonyG has been given the benefit of the doubt, and both books have dozens of inconsistencies, minor, major and stupendous. I'm sure Jowen will be more than willing to provide a list. As I recall, there's one on Backstage somewhere.
Misspellings and grammatical errors are one thing, but Tony constantly violates the PF he's employed to curate. If the EVE IP manager can't spot those errors, or can't summon an underling to spot it for him, an external editor never will.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#23 - 2012-01-12 13:10:35 UTC
Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.

But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
#24 - 2012-01-12 19:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Milo Caman
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.

But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate.


Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'.

Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days.
Random Sentience
Doomheim
#25 - 2012-01-12 20:17:30 UTC
Milo Caman wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.

But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate.


Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'.

Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days.

There are other ways to bring up these issues, and do not hinge on whether Tony Gonzales is a good writer or not. I enjoy his writing. I have issues with some of the tropes he uses and the direction he has taken with the novels, but I enjoy them. Yes, that's right; I don't think he's perfect. NO one is. We're all human, and we are all deserving of common human courtesy.

I enjoy Tony's novels. That's why I read them. The (in my opinion) rather interesting revelations of both novels are icing on the cake. I can also forgive the very small inconsistencies, some of which are being blown far out of proportion (in my opinion).

What needs to be done here is separate the novel from his position with CCP. Being an IP Manager means more than just being a caretaker of lore. It's more than writing a novel (which I'm willing to bet was not written on company time, and if it was, I fully agree with the decision to remove him from his position). "IP Management" requires in-depth knowledge of copyright and patent law. It requires an understanding of marketing and trends within the wider games and entertainment industry. Given his dev blog, I think there is a little bit of a disconnect there, and to an extent I am glad Tony is moving on.

I think that the issue here is both preconceptions as to what exactly Tony was doing at CCP made even more apparent by the use of a title that is really hard to find an actual description of. It is very different than being a content developer I'd imagine. Blink

So, here's what I suggest:

Collect all those inconsistencies. Write an in-depth post about those inconsistencies. Make your case as to why these inconsistencies do not fit. Just as you ask others to substantiate their arguments, you must substantiate yours. The old adage of attracting more bees with honey also holds some weight here.

This may be the internet, and you may feel that your favorite hobby just got a huge pile of waste thrown into it, but that's no excuse to treat another human being with the amount of hate that I have seen leveled at Tony Gonzales or those who are hoping to discuss their own viewpoint. I know that as a writer myself I would prefer a well written critique that rationally discusses the shortcomings of my novel to blind adulation or hate.

Thank you for your time.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-01-12 20:58:05 UTC
Now that would not be fair to Tony at all.Straight

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Haseo Antares
Production N Destruction INC.
F O R M I C I D A E
#27 - 2012-01-12 21:42:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Haseo Antares
Here is another idea. Maybe the perceived lack of continuity is not a Tony G problem but rather a you problem. By you problem I mean us the players. I was under the impression that CCP did not want to solve the mystery of New Eden for us. But rather give us clues and possibly misinformation along the way (in the form of characters?). Maybe these inconsistencies were written on purpose. Just like in real life facts change and we do not know the whole story yet, but apparently Tony G does. I could be wrong but it wouldn't be the first time and most likely wont be the last.

Besides I think there are still things in game that players have yet to uncover. Like those hidden DED site world event agents (shakes fist @ map). Just my $.01

Edit: Although I cant wrap my head around why there is a translation of enheduanni in the book from AI Grious yet the real Grious in a chronicle said that there was no translation.

We currently have the world's greatest linguists and scientists trying to decode what you just said.

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#28 - 2012-01-12 22:50:20 UTC
Milo Caman wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.

But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate.


Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'.

Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days.


That is the problem, you claimed that Tony did a very bad job on PF but you gave no examples why. That he did a good job is my opinion and I enjoyed the reading Empyrean Age. The EVE universe is huge and there is a place for a lot of different characters, not all of them have to fit into the cardboard boxes that some roleplayers on an external forum have laid out before them.


....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera
#29 - 2012-01-12 23:58:50 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:


That is the problem, you claimed that Tony did a very bad job on PF but you gave no examples why. That he did a good job is my opinion and I enjoyed the reading Empyrean Age. The EVE universe is huge and there is a place for a lot of different characters, not all of them have to fit into the cardboard boxes that some roleplayers on an external forum have laid out before them.




Those who dislike his writing have given quite a few examples, please go back and read the first few comments.

And regarding cardboard boxes, we only use the ones CCP gives us. If they've been giving us gritty sci-fi boxes for the last 6 years and then suddenly give us a few that are polka-dot with 15,000 year old virtual reality monsters and lesbian space-empresses inside, we can't be blamed for being a bit dismayed.

It's their IP, they can do as they please of course, but consistency of tone and scope never hurt anyone.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#30 - 2012-01-13 00:07:34 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Milo Caman wrote:
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Tony might have written the PF in a different way then some of the roleplayer perceive it, but he still made quite a good job and wrote a good story with Empyrean Age.

But I have to constantly remind myself that I am an on the internet, the place where it is cool to hate.


Please, substantiate your arguments. So far I've not seen a scrap of credible support or evidence from the people saying 'he's good at maintaining PF, or 'he's a good writer'.

Simply saying 'this is what I think, you are wrong' doesn't really cut it these days.


That is the problem, you claimed that Tony did a very bad job on PF but you gave no examples why. That he did a good job is my opinion and I enjoyed the reading Empyrean Age. The EVE universe is huge and there is a place for a lot of different characters, not all of them have to fit into the cardboard boxes that some roleplayers on an external forum have laid out before them.



http://www.wraithwerks.net/blog/2008/07/the-empyrean-age.html
Eko'mo
Eko Research Institute
#31 - 2012-01-13 01:10:57 UTC
Personally I liked both novels for what they are. Especially the epicness of battle scenes (that unfortunately the actual game will never live up to..) it felt incredibly cinematic

I am concerned however with how the women are portrayed as quite weak willed in general. Gable, for example you will notice cant go 2 or 3 pages without someone randomly jabbing her with stimms. No joke its alarming how often this happens. A lot of repetative description, tired eyes, weary expressions etc. Loses impact after awhile.

Need to re-read all of the Jove exposition. Wish I understood it.

http://ekolikecrayons.wordpress.com/about/

Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-01-13 03:16:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Quote:
Fourthly, the portrayal of women in the novels can border on disgusting, as overemotional stroppy whores that are simply Not Fit to run an empire. The ex-CEO of KK, for example, pissing herself when bound to a chair in front of Tibus Heth, in an act of defiance. Right.


Would people find it equally disgusting if a man was tied to a chair and pissing himself? No, in this case most would probably see it as comic relief.

I don't know about you, but I'd certainly be pissing myself if a dictator was about to probe through my mind to unearth my memories.

Just pointing this out because I've seen a lot of this "THE FEMALE CHARACTERS ARE PORTRAYED BADLY" stuff lately. There are tons of male character portrayed in a negative light, as well; why is it only "sexist" or "disgusting" when done to females?

~double standard~

Quote:
I am concerned however with how the women are portrayed as quite weak willed in general. Gable, for example you will notice cant go 2 or 3 pages without someone randomly jabbing her with stimms. No joke its alarming how often this happens. A lot of repetative description, tired eyes, weary expressions etc. Loses impact after awhile.


I'd say this is justified. After all, she has little combat training (being a medic) and ends up being forced to patch up the horrible wounds of soldiers who brutally executed her ex-colleagues and took her prisoner. Again, if it was a man in this situation, would you feel that he was being portrayed as "weak willed?"
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#33 - 2012-01-13 08:40:22 UTC
Most of the things in this review can just be discarded. The author of the review uses the fact that he does not like how certain characters and events are portrayed, so he contructs a "this is abusing the PF" argument out of it.

Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-01-13 09:14:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Nah, it is obviously because the Gallente is too much like the Bush administration.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Milo Caman
Anshar Incorporated
#35 - 2012-01-13 10:56:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Milo Caman
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Most of the things in this review can just be discarded.


Translation: I can't back my opinions up.

Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Obviously a lot of things are unexplained in the book and I think these loose ends are there for a reason, because these gaps can be filled by other stories and events. The basic complaint in the review seems to be, that EVE is not star wars, for example we did not know how and why grand admiral Eturrer came to be a pawn to the broker and a traitor, if this would be star wars I have no doubt that he would at least have his own book trilogy by now, explaining everything in detail.


I have no issue with 'unexplained' things. It's more, like Silas said, a lack of consistency on CCP's part, going from gritty complicated sci-fi with many shades of grey to a black-and-white morality fantasy that oozes hyperbole and cliche.

In fact the number of things that did get explained in Templar One were bad. The whole 'big reveal' thing with the sleepers has practically killed the Arek'Jaalan project.

I have no issues with people who like the book either, you can enjoy bad literature, just don't go around spouting how great it is and then getting upset when people point out the inconsistencies and mistakes.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#36 - 2012-01-13 11:27:01 UTC
Well you failed to back up your own arguments, just linking another heavily biased review does not get you points here.

I have no problems with you not liking TonyG or his writing, but I have a problem with your herd-mentality. If a small group of players hates him, you assume that everyone must hate him.

All of the points in the review stand on a weak ground for the reasons I posted earlier.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Yazus Kor
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2012-01-13 12:02:26 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Well you failed to back up your own arguments, just linking another heavily biased review does not get you points here.

I have no problems with you not liking TonyG or his writing, but I have a problem with your herd-mentality. If a small group of players hates him, you assume that everyone must hate him.

All of the points in the review stand on a weak ground for the reasons I posted earlier.


Easiest way to win an argument: Ignore everyone else's posts, only read your own.
Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
#38 - 2012-01-13 12:04:00 UTC
for the point about portrayals of female characters:

In Templar One, it seems like the majority of female characters are Objectives. They are things that people are fighting over, and are unable to defend themselves. They are tools of other people. They don't seem like individuals in their own right.

Jamyl Sarum for example, is portrayed as a tool of Falek Grange/ the Other.
Dr. Gable, is ofc taken prisoner and bundled about (on more than one occasion).
Mens Reppola's daughter is an Objective that he is seeking to defend, and others are seeking to use against him.
The assassin Thanatos, is debatable if she counts as human or not, but in any case is a tool.

Other minor characters such as the head of Federal Intelligence, she is portrayed as not being that good at her job - Roden Shipyards own agents trump the FIO. The Gallente admiral Marakova is insinuated as having slept her way to her current position. Reppola's wife, drinks because her marriage is crumbling, as a result she is killed in a spaceship incident due to not being in her chair because of being drunk, and her body is never found.

There is a waitress who is described as "A provocatively dressed waitress with long legs and a billion-credit smile appeared from out of nowhere with amber-colored spirits in two crystal glasses. Setting the bottle on the rail, she served Korvin with her lips pursed open just enough to make him sweat, and then she walked away, disappearing around the bend in the corridor."
I don't see the need to describe someone in that way, when they only appear in those two sentences.
The scene around those two sentences is a conversation between two of the major male characters. It is a bit of an interruption, and feels like, that were the scene a movie, the waitress was inserted to stop people going to the toilet during the scene because it was otherwise dull.


The Empyrean Age had more questionable portrayals, a lot more. I could list them, perhaps?

Just the facts.

Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#39 - 2012-01-13 13:12:58 UTC
Yazus Kor wrote:


Easiest way to win an argument: Ignore everyone else's posts, only read your own.


And you also ignored the point I raised earlier, in an universe as huge as New Eden, why do you think your point of view is the only valid one?

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.

Yazus Kor
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2012-01-13 15:06:45 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
Yazus Kor wrote:


Easiest way to win an argument: Ignore everyone else's posts, only read your own.


And you also ignored the point I raised earlier, in an universe as huge as New Eden, why do you think your point of view is the only valid one?


In a thread as potentially huge as this, what makes you think your point of view is the only valid one?