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Recurring Opportunities coming soon

First post
Author
Shalashaska Adam
Snakes and Lasers
#1421 - 2016-04-13 14:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Shalashaska Adam
All wasted feedback once again, this is merely an announcement thread.

More disappointed than anything really.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1422 - 2016-04-13 14:24:19 UTC
Aydan Talvanen wrote:

Real "Thrill of the hunt". It should be named "Slaughter of the Lambs".

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#1423 - 2016-04-13 14:27:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.
Logging in just to kill a single NPC is fun and interesting - CCP

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#1424 - 2016-04-13 14:32:26 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.
Logging in just to kill a single NPC is fun and interesting - CCP


that make me laugh and i actually pee'd a little

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

neofa008
Proudly Snoring
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1425 - 2016-04-13 14:43:15 UTC
Srsly, wtf?

Stop doing ****
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1426 - 2016-04-13 14:48:17 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
smartphone app would certainly do all kinds of wonders for login numbers

Sure would if you put them together. What does it matter to me if the market orders got updated through someone's computer or someone's iphone? This module I bought got invented and manufactured by someone who logged in with the app, oh the horror!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1427 - 2016-04-13 14:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Well, I've been discussing a lot the steep decline in PCU. My main argument being (and is) that most people pay CCP for the PvE, PvE is a short career with poor quality and that kills population faster than anything else in the game, thus in the last years people who start playing are outnumbered by the continued pressure of quitting PvErs. That drives PCU down despite all of CCP's increasingly desperate efforts to improve PvP, quality of life and anything but PvE as PvErs want it.

In this context, one of the usual counter-arguments is that multiple character training and long skillqueues are to blame for PCU going down.

So when CCP comes and tells us that unlimited skillqueues have taken a toll on server population after Phoebe, I am more or less willing to take their word for it. It goes a bit against my main argument but makes sense.


It's not the notion that the infiniqueue lowered logins that I'm objecting to — everyone knew that would happen; indeed it was by far the strongest argument against doing it. When it was announced, people explicitly and openly embraced the concept exactly because they could now stuff the queue and not log in for months on end.

No, the bullshit I'm objecting to is his attempt at using it as an argument why this new abortion needs to come in the form of a daily, suggesting that skill changes were a form of “daily” in the olden days. This, of course, is nonsense and even a cursory glance at the queue itself by a 1-day old player will dispel that notion. He's engaging in some Chris Roberts-level history revisionism when he tries to suggest that the 24h queue made people log in daily — that “dailies are already in the game” — and that it's therefore ok to force people to log in daily to collect their SP bribes. Even before the queue existed, there was no daily requirement — you mashed a bunch of lvl I–III skills into a single session, then set off a lvl IV or V that would last you until your next login.

If we use reality rather than history revisionism as our basis, the 24h queue demonstrates that a weekly or even monthly requirement would be suitable to get the numbers up without disrupting everyone's regular play. And of course, that's still assuming that some kind of rewards grind is implemented at all, but that's where the real folly of his argument rears its head.

By making the ignorant skill queue comparison, he accidentally proved that the Daily Opportunity proposal was completely pointless. Apparently, the infniniqueue cause logins to drop dramatically — no surprise there. The solution to that problem is not to drive away even more players by forcing them to grind dull content; the solution is to remove the cause of the drop — remove the infiniqueue. It'll be controversial and they'll be hated for it, but what's the difference from the grief they're getting now? With that kind of move, they would actually be able to make a historic argument: it worked just fine before; it'll work just fine again. Combine it with the clustered play types they figure out a year ago, and they can even make the argument that those who'd quit because they couldn't be offline for months on end are 99% likely to quit anyway, so there's no substantial loss from reinstating the 24h limit.

Quote:
Dailies are a fix to "people don't log for skill queue and that's bad". They're a small bribe and probably will only benefit people who would be killing that NPC anyway -true PvErs.

The problem is that they're not an actual fix to that for the reasons mentioned: people never logged in daily to skill queue; unlike the week-end session where you adjust your queue, this “fix” will actively work towards making people burn out on the game and play less; unlike said session, this “fix” provides drastically lowered incentives to engage in regular in-game activities; and above all, the “fix” is wholly decoupled from the mechanisms and the causality of the problem they're seeing.

They're trying to fix an arrow to the knee by taking PCP: it'll probably work as a funky distraction for a while, but at the end of the day, they still have an arrow in the knee, slowly festering away, and now they're building up an addiction that will make it less and less likely to actually take care of the actual wound. The proper procedure to fix the problem would be to remove the arrow and put some bandaging on that poor knee.
Tomika
Doomheim
#1428 - 2016-04-13 15:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomika
Aydan Talvanen wrote:
Aaaannnd the monstrosity is already on Singularity. What a horrible day to wake up to.

http://i.imgur.com/v3tZxkN.png


Alright I'll be honest. Seeing that gives me a bad feeling.

I've poked a bit of fun at some complainers in the thread (Sorry. It's a character flaw, what can I say) but really... you are right. This kind of sucks.

Just like the dailies and garrison gold missions in WoW, the mere existence of this new 'opportunity' will act like a tiny itch that you want to ignore but can't because you'd be dumb not to just reach and scratch it.

I mean, I will do those missions because I'd be dumb not to, right? But the fact it's going to put something unwanted on my to-do list bugs me. Hell, I don't even have a to-do list in EVE. But now I will.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1429 - 2016-04-13 15:06:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
By making the ignorant skill queue comparison, he accidentally proved that the Daily Opportunity proposal was completely pointless. Apparently, the infniniqueue cause logins to drop dramatically — no surprise there. The solution to that problem is not to drive away even more players by forcing them to grind dull content; the solution is to remove the cause of the drop — remove the infiniqueue. It'll be controversial and they'll be hated for it, but what's the difference from the grief they're getting now? With that kind of move, they would actually be able to make a historic argument: it worked just fine before; it'll work just fine again. Combine it with the clustered play types they figure out a year ago, and they can even make the argument that those who'd quit because they couldn't be offline for months on end are 99% likely to quit anyway, so there's no substantial loss from reinstating the 24h limit.

What does it solve exactly? Being forced to log because of 24 que is better that dailiy? Players didn't log to play, they log to put skills into que.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Aydan Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1430 - 2016-04-13 15:08:12 UTC
Tomika wrote:
Aydan Talvanen wrote:
Aaaannnd the monstrosity is already on Singularity. What a horrible day to wake up to.

http://i.imgur.com/v3tZxkN.png


Alright I'll be honest. Seeing that gives me a bad feeling.

I've poked a bit of fun at some complainers in the thread (Sorry. It's a character flaw, what can I say) but really... you are right. This kind of sucks.

Just like the dailies and garrison gold missions in WoW, the mere existence of this new 'opportunity' will act like a tiny itch that you want to ignore but can't because you'd be dumb not to just reach and scratch it.

I mean, I will do those missions because I'd be dumb not to, right? But the fact it's going to put something unwanted on my to-do list bugs me. Hell, I don't even have a to-do list in EVE. But now I will.


We have a convert. Praise Bob.
Hra Neuvosto
Party Cat Enterprises
#1431 - 2016-04-13 15:08:26 UTC
What's the lore excuse for these btw?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1432 - 2016-04-13 15:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

What does it solve exactly? Being forced to log because of 24 que is better that dailiy? Players didn't log to play, they log to put skills into que.

It solves the exact problem that they claim they want to solve: that, just as predicted, the inifniqueue made people log in less frequently. A 24h limit would not force you to log in daily — it never did. Hell, having no queue at all didn't force you to do that.

The argument that people didn't log in to play applies equally to the opportunity proposal, and thus completely debunks the notion that they're doing this to “promote activity.” They're doing it to artificially inflate a PR number that they accidentally deflated by changing a wholly unrelated mechanism. The difference is that the 24h queue was something you could fiddle with (while engaging in more relevant activities) during your regular play hours, be it over the weekend or biweekly or whatever, so it did not offer a distraction over more fun stuff, nor was it a demand when you didn't really have time for it. It was something you could incorporate in your regular game schedule rather than something you had to build an artificial game schedule schedule around.

It's better than a daily because it's not a daily; it's better than a forced, limited activity, because it's a background maintenance task; it's something you can do at your leisure while you're logged in, not something you specifically have to log in to do.
Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#1433 - 2016-04-13 15:36:06 UTC
Hra Neuvosto wrote:
What's the lore excuse for these btw?


The lost sp from the extractors was gassed into the atmosphere and collected by various hostile npc agents, killing these npc agents grants the ability to harvest the sp into your own bad self

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Aydan Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1434 - 2016-04-13 15:38:24 UTC
Why won't CSM talk some sense into the devs? At least they would do something for a change.
Kieron VonDeux
#1435 - 2016-04-13 15:49:08 UTC
Aydan Talvanen wrote:
Why won't CSM talk some sense into the devs? At least they would do something for a change.



I don't think that is the relationship CCP has with the CSM.
Balta Katei
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1436 - 2016-04-13 15:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Balta Katei
CCP Rise wrote:
Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.


Here is my suggestion for giving SP rewards to PvP activities:

Summary

Give an SP reward if one player (Alice) destroys another player's (Bob) ship. The amount of SP rewarded is inversely proportional to the number of "relationship points" (RP) Alice has with Bob. RP is used as a tracking tool to determine how often players interact with each other. RP cannot be modified by the player.

Q&A with myself to explain

Q: What is the problem?
A: In order to keep players from exploiting the "kill your own alt for PvP rewards" issue, it is necessary to track how players relate to one another.

Q: What is your solution?
A: I propose that each player have a RP list in their character profile that tracks how often the player interacts with other players. The goal of RP will be to determine how "connected" a player is with another player.

Q: How would RP be tracked?
A: Each player would have a list of character names and associated RP count in a tab in their Character Sheet.

Q: What can change a player's RP?
A: Certain events such as destroying on-another's ship, chatting with one another, being in the same corporation at downtime, activating remote modules with one another, sending mail to one another... all would increment the RP to varying extents.

Q: Can you give me an example of how a RP would change in a fight?
A: I'll keep it simple and say only killmails generate RP. Let's say Alice destroys Bob's ship. Alice is in a fleet with Charlie. Alice is tackle. Charlie is in a brawler fit. Bob has never interacted with Alice before but Bob and Charlie have fought and killed eachother many times before. When Bob's ship blows up, a killmail is generated. Immediately upon generation of the killmail, Bob's name appears in Alice's RP list for the first time and 1 RP is incremented to Bob's entry. Since Bob and Charlie have killed eachother many times in the past, Charlie is already in Bob's RP list so 1 RP is incremented to Charlie's entry. Similarly, Charlie's RP list already has Bob's name present with 7 RP; this RP increments to 8.

Q: How would SP be awarded to everyone in that fight if daily PvP SP rewards were a thing?
A: Since Alice has never before interacted with Charlie, Alice only has 1 RP associated with Charlie in her list. Since she was included in the killmail of Bob's ship, let's say her SP reward is 10,000 SP. However, since Bob and Charlie already have 7 RP with eachother before the battle from previous interactions, the SP reward that Charlie receives for being on the killmail is much lower, say 78 SP (ex. formula: SP_reward = 10000*(0.5)^(RP) ). This example formula halves the amount of SP rewarded when RP increases by 1. If Alice destroyed Bob's ship again the next day for the daily PvP SP reward, she would only receive 5000 SP (half of what she got the day before). If Charlie were fleeting with Alice again for this second kill, he would only receive 39 SP.

Q: How would this solve the "kill your own alt" problem of PvP rewards?
A: In my simple example, the daily SP reward goes down by half when a player tries to kill the same character twice. In order to maximize SP, players would be forced to kill many more unique characters instead of just killing the same alt over and over.

Q: What if a corporation exploited your system by undocking a large number of alts that were meant to be killed to harvest SP?
A: That would be a difficult undertaking of a corporation since CCP only allows one character from one account to be logged in at any one time. If I had to propose a mitigating solution, I would suggest that CCP create an "interrelatedness" function using "degrees of separation" as an input. Basically, when a killmail is generated, you establish a small amount of RP with anyone who has also interacted (killed or been killed by) with the victim. Imagine a SP farming scenario with lots of alts being killed over and over by a large group of players until their RP is maxed out and the alt biomassed. If RP is incremented not only for those involved in the killmail, but those who interacted with those in the killmail, and those who interacted with those who interacted with those in the killmail, then the rate of RP increase of the SP farming alts would increase much faster if it were the same group of characters killing the alts. However, I imagine all the added processing power needed to do all these RP calculations would make using this "interrelatedness" function unfeasible.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1437 - 2016-04-13 15:51:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
It's better than a daily because it's not a daily; it's better than a forced, limited activity, because it's a background maintenance task; it's something you can do at your leisure while you're logged in, not something you specifically have to log in to do.

When I opposed against SP trading backers said: "you don't have to buy SP. It's optional". Same will be with this. Little you can do it here. I'm opposing dailies not because I will feel forced to do them. I'm opposing them because I've done them before in other games and it straight way to burn out for other players. All we need is achievements in EvE. Nail to the coffin.

CCP is paranoid, everybody wants to convince me that SP don't matter, only player experience. Yet they introducing SP trading and SP grinding via PvE...Absurd beyond imagination.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
#1438 - 2016-04-13 15:55:12 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Tippia wrote:
It's better than a daily because it's not a daily; it's better than a forced, limited activity, because it's a background maintenance task; it's something you can do at your leisure while you're logged in, not something you specifically have to log in to do.

When I opposed against SP trading backers said: "you don't have to buy SP. It's optional". Same will be with this. Little you can do it here. I'm opposing dailies not because I will feel forced to do them. I'm opposing them because I've done them before in other games and it straight way to burn out for other players. All we need is achievements in EvE. Nail to the coffin.

CCP is paranoid, everybody wants to convince me that SP don't matter, only player experience. Yet they introducing SP trading and SP grinding via PvE...Absurd beyond imagination.


My argument with this was sp is available to everyone, you dont have to change your style of gameplay to benefit from injectors, dailies require you to change your activity in order to get the reward, people who pvp, market trade, industry, haulers all get pretty much shafted because they dont shoot npc's.

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1439 - 2016-04-13 16:03:01 UTC
I genuinely feel this feature is a lose-lose for some players. Not all, or even most, just those people who focus on the industry side of things, or the exploration side of things, or l33t PvPers, and even miners. Apparently the system is going to be expanded, but, let's be honest, it could be expanded in 3 months or 3 years. We also don't know what the criteria of success is. As players, we're not supposed to know those kind of things, but as a result, you can't expect us to take it at face value that the system will be expanded and improved upon. We can only judge something based off of what we've seen, and while there has been some small improvement, by and large this still appears a dismal attempt to enforce a certain playstyle. Consider-

By singling out ratting, even if anyone can do it- or rather, especially because anyone can do it, you're giving a pat on the head to ratters while everyone who specifically avoids that style of play. CCP Rise, you even suggested that someone would shoot their own alt- but, that seems comparable work to shooting a single rat, in all honesty. That's pretty dismissive of people just asking to be able to play EVE in their own way.

Meanwhile, there's a large question mark over whether you have to be involved in the kill (like concord bounties) or actually deliver the killing blow. If someone on SiSi could clarify the mechanics there, it'd go a long ways towards figuring out how to approach this mechanic. That said, there's still problems with either system. No matter what system you implement, players will break it- whether trolling and harassing players (ostensibly what you wanted, correct?) or by taking advantage of fleet mechanics to ensure the bare minimum of work (well at least they undocked, right?). Hi-Sec, as much as it is carebear land, is particularly prone to harassment since there isn't an easy way to retaliate against people taking all the rats. Lowsec and Nullsec at least will have "encouraged combat", but that's still not enough.

300,000 skillpoints. That's the difference between someone logging in every day for a year, and logging in every twenty-two hours for a year. And there will be people who do it, or at least try to. Making the cooldowns reset for everyone either at server maintenance or some other predetermined time will make it so people can actually log on during their lunch break, if they have a hectic afternoon ahead. You know, the thing you said in one of your posts? If I habitually play EVE after work, and decide to try and log on during my lunch break, I cannot suddenly get my skill points. I'll ship spin for a few minutes, then leave, which seems to be the exact thing you're trying to prevent.

These, to me, are the most important issues. While the reward can be adjusted and balanced, replaced with LP or SP or whatever, the fact that 1) the system is limited to ratting from the start, 2) on an inflexible, 22 hour cooldown, implies a certain heavy-handedness in CCP's ideology. They want us to rat, and they want us to log on every 22 hours, so this is the way they'll enforce it. Sure, CCP says they'll release more details on the system, but how do we know? All we have to go off is what they've told us.


P.S. Kind of annoying to brush off the people comparing WoW to EVE. Even if you don't think WoW and EVE are anything alike, they are right that WoW uses dailies to reinforce patterns and get people to log on or miss out on the rewards- either reputation, money, or tokens of some kind. The difference comes from a matter of scale rather than anything else. I logged onto WoW to do my dailies, I log onto EVE to have fun.
Kieron VonDeux
#1440 - 2016-04-13 16:06:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kieron VonDeux
The best way for CCP to increase activity is by removing or limiting all the features that promote reducing activity such as:

Unlimited Skill Queue.
API pushes with in-game info such as notifications, Eve Mail, and etc.
and many more.
"Or maybe stop paying or promoting so much attention to the PCU?"



And, Or, give us more meaningful reasons to log in such as:

More ways to annoy other players when they are not online through Sov or Structure mechanics. (Yeah, cry more Sov sprawlers Roll)
Additional meaningful NPC content.

Simply giving SP boosts for doing same old things only shows how much imagination and ingenuity your game design is currently lacking.

Maybe its time to replace some burnt out Devs.