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Blastos

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#81 - 2012-01-13 04:32:10 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
How many ships have you killed with a Talos again?
…which is relevant to the theoretical claim you made… how, exactly?

Just face it: your comparison of turret stats was wrong. You came to an incorrect conclusion because you didn't understand what you were doing. It's ok. You can still shoot people in your Talos. You just can't claim that it tracks better than a Zealot any more.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-01-13 04:34:10 UTC
I'm sure saying the Talos has bad tracking when you haven't flown one makes everyone take you seriously
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2012-01-13 04:35:57 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
I'm sure saying the Talos has bad tracking
Good thing no-one is saying that, then.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-01-13 04:36:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
How many ships have you killed with a Talos again?
…which is relevant to the theoretical claim you made… how, exactly?

Just face it: your comparison of turret stats was wrong. You came to an incorrect conclusion because you didn't understand what you were doing. It's ok. You can still shoot people in your Talos. You just can't claim that it tracks better than a Zealot any more.

I made no theoretical claim. You brought the theory into it. I bring practical application and experience to the discussion, you **** about with numbers without even playing the game, thinking looking at sheets gives you accurate data rather than going out there and shooting stuff. It's OK, we know you're not relevant in this discussion, continue to post about how much you don't know though.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#85 - 2012-01-13 04:37:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyzlaki
If you haven't flown the ship I don't see how you can claim to make a relevant argument or in fact claim to make any educated remark about it at all. Just face it: you are irrelevant. Time to add you to my ignore list.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#86 - 2012-01-13 04:41:45 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
I made no theoretical claim.
Yes you did: “Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.” You then provided the theoretical numbers for those.

The simple fact of it is that you were wrong. You can wave your wounded epeen around as much as you like and try to dismiss your error by introducing the (equally incorrect) red herring of my in-game activities — it doesn't change this fact.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2012-01-13 04:44:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
I made no theoretical claim.
Yes you did: “Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.” You then provided the theoretical numbers for those.

The simple fact of it is that you were wrong. You can wave your wounded epeen around as much as you like and try to dismiss your error by introducing the (equally incorrect) red herring of my in-game activities — it doesn't change this fact.

No I provided the real numbers for those and if you take your little formula and ignore the irrelevant parts of it you will see that in the real world, the Talos has better tracking.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#88 - 2012-01-13 04:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Corina Jarr
I've seen a Talos pop to a Hawk. And a Vengence. And a Cane. And a Falcon. Guess all those are OP too... (ok, I'll accept the Falcon on thatLol).

Just remembered, I saw one die to a Purifier today, was quite hilarious (seeing the oversized gun BC die to the oversized missile frig).
Renarla
#89 - 2012-01-13 04:51:34 UTC
I'm interested in your Talos fit, Liang. I'm playing around in EFT and getting some decent numbers, but I checked out your KB, and while to my dismay you have yet to lose a Talos, I did notice on your KMs that your using Ion Blasters, which means I'm already off as I was thinking surely Neutrons since they're not a problem to fit at all.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2012-01-13 04:53:42 UTC  |  Edited by: DarkAegix
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
I made no theoretical claim.
Yes you did: “Talos large neutrons track better than a zealot's medium pulse at the same goddamn range and with twice the DPS.” You then provided the theoretical numbers for those.

Why is everyone arguing about tracking, anyway? Just use pyfa or EFT's graphing function.

A Talos with one magstab and mostly neutron blasters will deal 800dps with CN AM at 5km when the target is at a 90 degree angle, with 50m/s speed and a 125 signature. That's not a deal-breaker for the Talos.

The Talos will win the brawl. It's faster, has ~60% higher dps (With tracking & sig factored in), and has ~27% less ehp.

Talos may not have better effective tracking, but it does have much, much better effective dps. Enough to take on any ship size. Dual webs & drones give the Talos greater protection against frigates than the Zealot could dream of.

Here's a Talos fit I made:
[Talos, Solo Talos]

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon Microwarpdrive
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator

Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5



99.83% CPU and 99.19% powergrid. Delicious.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2012-01-13 04:57:54 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
No I provided the real numbers for those and if you take your little formula and ignore the irrelevant parts of it you will see that in the real world, the Talos has better tracking.

No. In the real virtual world, the Zealot will still have better tracking because those “irrelevant parts” I (supposedly) ignore are not actually irrelevant, and I'm not ignoring them — I'm normalising them to make it possible to compare two different turrets.

That's why the numbers you provided are theoretical: because they ignore the full scope of what's going on. Alone, they mean nothing. On their own, they cannot be compared. It's when you add them in with the rest that the truth of the matter comes out: a higher number means nothing because it is then modified by other numbers — in this case, it is reduced by a much higher number, and ends up being smaller than what you're comparing it to.

You were wrong, but so what? Why are you taking it so hard? It happens. Just go “oh hey, yeah, I forgot about the size factor — quite right…” and go on with your life knowing that the Talos has its own set of advantages. The Zealot tracks better for rather obvious reasons — why is this such a sore point for you?
DarkAegix wrote:
Why is everyone arguing about tracking, anyway?
Well, it started with his claim that large turrets tracked better than medium turrets, which I disputed, and then he got really really upset over this fact for some reason… vOv
Jask Avan
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-01-13 05:00:35 UTC
This thread is almost as sad as the New Year's day death threat guy.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2012-01-13 05:00:42 UTC
I suppose I shall quickly provide some proof to my claim so we can move on. Now for a real explanation let's take Tippia's little formula. Now you will notice at first he reduced both the angular AND the sig res to one. Meaning he is comparing the tracking when the target is at a high angle AND when the size of the ship is 42 times smaller than a Rookie ship. No wonder the medium pulse performed better. Let's apply some real world numbers. Assuming the angular is 0 (straight line engagement) and the sig res is 1000 (as the Zealot sig res with MWD is 1050, we'll use 1000 as a nice normal ship size)

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

And you will quickly see why Tippia is now being outed as a liar, using biased data to skew results to his favor. Not only does he not even fly the ship this thread is about, he also lies to you with numbers.
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-01-13 05:03:31 UTC
woot, talos OP thread before the null buff \o/

afaik thats the ammo you load on a shield talos and that is what making it "OP"


so....

zealot really??

Is the talos that much better than the tornado?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2012-01-13 05:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cyzlaki wrote:
Now you will notice at first he reduced both the angular AND the sig res to one.
…becasue we are not comparing the turrets against a ship, but against each other. To compare them against each other, we have to ensure that they're shooting the same target. Consequently, the variables decided by the target will be the same in both instances, at which point it doesn't matter what they are — the result will be exactly the same

Shooting a .5rad/s, 1050m sigrad target with both turrets will yield the same tracking difference as shooting a 2.5rad/s, 40m sigrad target with both turrets — in each case, the target is the same; only the turret variables differ.

Quote:
Assuming the angular is 0 (straight line engagement)
Just one problem: in this situation, the tracking no longer matters. Both turrets have perfect tracking and a 100% hit chance. It's a non-comparable situation because all turrets will yield the same result.
Quote:
Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011
Talos: 0/0.10 x 400/1000 = 0.042
No.

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0
Talos: 0/0.10 x 400/1000 = 0

And you will quickly see that Cyziaki yet again fails the most fundamental of maths and lies with numbers.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#96 - 2012-01-13 05:06:52 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
I suppose I shall quickly provide some proof to my claim so we can move on. Now for a real explanation let's take Tippia's little formula. Now you will notice at first he reduced both the angular AND the sig res to one. Meaning he is comparing the tracking when the target is at a high angle AND when the size of the ship is 42 times smaller than a Rookie ship. No wonder the medium pulse performed better. Let's apply some real world numbers. Assuming the angular is 0 (straight line engagement) and the sig res is 1000 (as the Zealot sig res with MWD is 1050, we'll use 1000 as a nice normal ship size)

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

And you will quickly see why Tippia is now being outed as a liar, using biased data to skew results to his favor. Not only does he not even fly the ship this thread is about, he also lies to you with numbers.

You fail at math...

both = 0
Aamrr
#97 - 2012-01-13 05:07:37 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
IZealot:[/b] 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042


Erm...How does zero divided and multiplied by anything manage to not be zero?
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-01-13 05:08:07 UTC
Biced wrote:
woot, talos OP thread before the null buff \o/

afaik thats the ammo you load on a shield talos and that is what making it "OP"


so....

zealot really??

Is the talos that much better than the tornado?


Well it shouldn't be, but it is because it maintains a higher DPS over a similar range.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2012-01-13 05:09:40 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
IZealot:[/b] 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042


Erm...How does zero divided and multiplied by anything manage to not be zero?

If you want to do it that way.
Talos = 0.4
Zealot = 0.125

Same result.
Zachis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-01-13 05:11:26 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:

Zealot: 0/0.09 x 125/1000 = 0.011

Talos: 0/0.105 x 400/1000 = 0.042

And you will quickly see why Tippia is now being outed as a liar, using biased data to skew results to his favor. Not only does he not even fly the ship this thread is about, he also lies to you with numbers.


I'm no math genius, but I'm pretty sure that any number times 0 is roughly 0.