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T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#781 - 2016-04-10 13:33:04 UTC
I originally thought this was a terrible idea, this has no place in Eve etc. agreeing with many in the thread. Over the past few days my opinion has changed.

After watching various streams lately, Spectre fleet, Boat, Zarvox to name a few, and how much fun Eve can be when you hit low sec and null. This is what Eve is about and I started to wonder exactly how many new people that try the game actually stick around long enough to experience any of it. Would this be the carrot that gets newer players to stick around long enough to experience the better parts of the game? I think it could well be.

Eve is a wonderful game, people just don't get the chance to see its full potential and that's a shame.

This is not only about new players, we all have 3 capsuleers per account and 2 of them are rarely used other than for afk activities. With Eve having one of the best character creations out there, it seems such a waste. This would allow us to have more fun with our other 2, rather than see them rot away in some Captain Quarters.

Dailies are horrible, but as far as being rewarded for these, there is no game out there than offers a more valuable reward. The positives to this new feature heavily outweigh the negatives.
People arguing about how unfair it is if they can't login every day etc. I understand but would you rather see 20k online when you do log in, or potentially 40k+?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#782 - 2016-04-10 13:42:01 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I originally thought this was a terrible idea, this has no place in Eve etc. agreeing with many in the thread. Over the past few days my opinion has changed.

After watching various streams lately, Spectre fleet, Boat, Zarvox to name a few, and how much fun Eve can be when you hit low sec and null. This is what Eve is about and I started to wonder exactly how many new people that try the game actually stick around long enough to experience any of it. Would this be the carrot that gets newer players to stick around long enough to experience the better parts of the game? I think it could well be.

Eve is a wonderful game, people just don't get the chance to see its full potential and that's a shame.

This is not only about new players, we all have 3 capsuleers per account and 2 of them are rarely used other than for afk activities. With Eve having one of the best character creations out there, it seems such a waste. This would allow us to have more fun with our other 2, rather than see them rot away in some Captain Quarters.

Dailies are horrible, but as far as being rewarded for these, there is no game out there than offers a more valuable reward. The positives to this new feature heavily outweigh the negatives.
People arguing about how unfair it is if they can't login every day etc. I understand but would you rather see 20k online when you do log in, or potentially 40k+?


There are plenty of ppl who have played eve for years that never leave hs and there are players from a day one that get pulled into null. It's not time players need but direction and go kill one belt rat is not direction

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#783 - 2016-04-10 13:46:11 UTC  |  Edited by: T-Jay Charante
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I originally thought this was a terrible idea, this has no place in Eve etc. agreeing with many in the thread. Over the past few days my opinion has changed.

After watching various streams lately, Spectre fleet, Boat, Zarvox to name a few, and how much fun Eve can be when you hit low sec and null. This is what Eve is about and I started to wonder exactly how many new people that try the game actually stick around long enough to experience any of it. Would this be the carrot that gets newer players to stick around long enough to experience the better parts of the game? I think it could well be.

Eve is a wonderful game, people just don't get the chance to see its full potential and that's a shame.

This is not only about new players, we all have 3 capsuleers per account and 2 of them are rarely used other than for afk activities. With Eve having one of the best character creations out there, it seems such a waste. This would allow us to have more fun with our other 2, rather than see them rot away in some Captain Quarters.

Dailies are horrible, but as far as being rewarded for these, there is no game out there than offers a more valuable reward. The positives to this new feature heavily outweigh the negatives.
People arguing about how unfair it is if they can't login every day etc. I understand but would you rather see 20k online when you do log in, or potentially 40k+?


There are plenty of ppl who have played eve for years that never leave hs and there are players from a day one that get pulled into null. It's not time players need but direction and go kill one belt rat is not direction


And that is exactly why this new feature could help those players that never leave high sec, actually gain a few skill points in the other capsuleers, experiment with other aspects of the game and not care about getting them blown up.

As said, I hated this idea at first, but I only see positives with very little negatives.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#784 - 2016-04-10 13:49:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
T-Jay Charante wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
T-Jay Charante wrote:
I originally thought this was a terrible idea, this has no place in Eve etc. agreeing with many in the thread. Over the past few days my opinion has changed.

After watching various streams lately, Spectre fleet, Boat, Zarvox to name a few, and how much fun Eve can be when you hit low sec and null. This is what Eve is about and I started to wonder exactly how many new people that try the game actually stick around long enough to experience any of it. Would this be the carrot that gets newer players to stick around long enough to experience the better parts of the game? I think it could well be.

Eve is a wonderful game, people just don't get the chance to see its full potential and that's a shame.

This is not only about new players, we all have 3 capsuleers per account and 2 of them are rarely used other than for afk activities. With Eve having one of the best character creations out there, it seems such a waste. This would allow us to have more fun with our other 2, rather than see them rot away in some Captain Quarters.

Dailies are horrible, but as far as being rewarded for these, there is no game out there than offers a more valuable reward. The positives to this new feature heavily outweigh the negatives.
People arguing about how unfair it is if they can't login every day etc. I understand but would you rather see 20k online when you do log in, or potentially 40k+?


There are plenty of ppl who have played eve for years that never leave hs and there are players from a day one that get pulled into null. It's not time players need but direction and go kill one belt rat is not direction


And that is exactly why this new feature could help those players that never leave high sec, actually gain a few skill points in the other capsuleers, experiment with other aspects of the game and not care about getting them blown up.

As said, I hated this idea at first, but I only see positives with very little negatives.


Again the result (ppl getting sp) is not what most of us are taking issue with. It's how they are gaining that sp. We don't want ccp telling players what to do how to do it or how often

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Big Lynx
#785 - 2016-04-10 13:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Lynx
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

We don't want ccp telling players what to do how to do it or how often


Are they? And why are you speaking for all other players, when you only know the opinion of a minorty on forums?
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#786 - 2016-04-10 13:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: T-Jay Charante
All they have to do is give multiple options in the daily list that cover all aspects of the game, that you would probably be doing any way if you undock, and the problem is solved. Killing a rat was mentioned in the OP, I'm sure they have more to the system than that sole activity.
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#787 - 2016-04-10 14:05:51 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aluanna wrote:
Honestly I'm on the fence about this..

Personally, I don't like the pressure to log in daily.. I'd much rather see this as a weekly thing that requires more effort, but also gives more reward..

Assuming it's going to be implemented..

Like every 6 days you log on and kill X NPC ships OR player ships, OR mine X ore (Not a checklist, just alternatives for those who don't partake in PVE)

And once that is done you get X free SP (say 50k) It's just like the dailies, only the pressure is to log on weekly and put a little effort in, not daily find a random anomaly, warp in, kill one ship, dock up and log out..


So you understand the concept behind dailies in eve is faulty at best but you want the bonuse XP


I think this sums up the reasons ppl support this idea

It absolutely should. SP is quite obviously the whole reason for its announcement.

There's no problem with rewarding log-on behavior either. It would exist automatically without SP, as players would start a production queue or check out a fresh market, increasing the amount of potential trade hubs and combat activities. Welcome to logic.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#788 - 2016-04-10 14:08:44 UTC
Dror wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aluanna wrote:
Honestly I'm on the fence about this..

Personally, I don't like the pressure to log in daily.. I'd much rather see this as a weekly thing that requires more effort, but also gives more reward..

Assuming it's going to be implemented..

Like every 6 days you log on and kill X NPC ships OR player ships, OR mine X ore (Not a checklist, just alternatives for those who don't partake in PVE)

And once that is done you get X free SP (say 50k) It's just like the dailies, only the pressure is to log on weekly and put a little effort in, not daily find a random anomaly, warp in, kill one ship, dock up and log out..


So you understand the concept behind dailies in eve is faulty at best but you want the bonuse XP


I think this sums up the reasons ppl support this idea

It absolutely should. SP is quite obviously the whole reason for its announcement.

There's no problem with rewarding log-on behavior either. It would exist automatically without SP, as players would start a production queue or check out a fresh market, increasing the amount of potential trade hubs and combat activities. Welcome to logic.


Then reward me for logging on but don't give me tasks that I would only do in order to get this sp

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#789 - 2016-04-10 14:10:27 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

We don't want ccp telling players what to do how to do it or how often


Are they? And why are you speaking for all other players, when you only know the opinion of a minorty on forums?


Because I remember how this Gabe was and sometimes still is advertised

A sand box game where you are given tools and a play place to make what you want with them

Not a theme park where you ate guided around to the differant attractions

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#790 - 2016-04-10 14:26:42 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
I am generally quite possitive about the changes CCP has done the last years, but with this I have this nagging feeling that the motive behind is more sinister. The claim is more will log in, but it will be only briefly to get the SP, defating its purpose. Dailies and weeklies made me quit SWTOR, as I in the end hated logging in just to repeat the same **** I did every day. So as this does not have the wanted affect, let us then look at what is does do.... it injects quite a lot of SP into the system. That is convinient just after SP trading was implemented. You can create 6 extra injectors per year per char. that is potentially (In an extreme best case scenario) 18 extra extractors bought from CCP for each account. Nice way to make money, it will not get more people in space for longer periods of time though.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Lugh Crow-Slave
#791 - 2016-04-10 14:31:38 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
I am generally quite possitive about the changes CCP has done the last years, but with this I have this nagging feeling that the motive behind is more sinister. The claim is more will log in, but it will be only briefly to get the SP, defating its purpose. Dailies and weeklies made me quit SWTOR, as I in the end hated logging in just to repeat the same **** I did every day. So as this does not have the wanted affect, let us then look at what is does do.... it injects quite a lot of SP into the system. That is convinient just after SP trading was implemented. You can create 6 extra injectors per year per char. that is potentially (In an extreme best case scenario) 18 extra extractors bought from CCP for each account. Nice way to make money, it will not get more people in space for longer periods of time though.


The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#792 - 2016-04-10 14:39:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp

..Quite the claim. Fortunately for game development, more players logged in simultaneously is more on TS and more ready to do something interesting.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Then reward me for logging on but don't give me tasks that I would only do in order to get this sp

..

A sand box game where you are given tools and a play place to make what you want with them

Not a theme park where you ate guided around to the differant attractions

It's odd that a single and basically-immediate action can inspire such claims like "it's not a sandbox game anymore". The ludicrousness is argumentatively self-defeating.

If there's no suggested alternative for such a simple action and such an effective reward (including getting players undocked), there's surely no reason to post.

Enjoy.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#793 - 2016-04-10 14:42:49 UTC
Just give SP rewards to newer players and be done with it. That would be better than screwing with the core mechanisms of the game with seemingly no thought to the consequences.

Rise is a complete fail at everything he touches game design wise. He has completely failed with the NPE. He has bought on a whole host of unintended consequences with skill injectors (passive ISK). And now is trying desperately to scrabble about to reverse the fact that people are making billions passively by introducing his daily quest BS in an attempt to bring the value of passive SP farming down.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#794 - 2016-04-10 14:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: T-Jay Charante
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
sero Hita wrote:
I am generally quite possitive about the changes CCP has done the last years, but with this I have this nagging feeling that the motive behind is more sinister. The claim is more will log in, but it will be only briefly to get the SP, defating its purpose. Dailies and weeklies made me quit SWTOR, as I in the end hated logging in just to repeat the same **** I did every day. So as this does not have the wanted affect, let us then look at what is does do.... it injects quite a lot of SP into the system. That is convinient just after SP trading was implemented. You can create 6 extra injectors per year per char. that is potentially (In an extreme best case scenario) 18 extra extractors bought from CCP for each account. Nice way to make money, it will not get more people in space for longer periods of time though.


The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp


But it does make things better for the players, and for CCP too obviously. If I am juggling a few games at any particular time, instead of logging into one of the other games, I'm logging into Eve. Ok, maybe for 5 minutes, or maybe once I log in, I stay for longer than expected, who knows. But at the end of the day, I'm playing Eve rather than the other game.
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#795 - 2016-04-10 15:01:41 UTC
Any CSM wanna pipe in with some stellar management counselling?
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#796 - 2016-04-10 15:05:27 UTC
Moac Tor wrote:
Just give SP rewards to newer players and be done with it. That would be better than screwing with the core mechanisms of the game with seemingly no thought to the consequences.

Rise is a complete fail at everything he touches game design wise. He has completely failed with the NPE. He has bought on a whole host of unintended consequences with skill injectors (passive ISK). And now is trying desperately to scrabble about to reverse the fact that people are making billions passively by introducing his daily quest BS in an attempt to bring the value of passive SP farming down.


I wouldn't shoot the messenger here (Rise). This idea is obviously linked to Skill Extractors and to sell more of them. You can't make these billions without Skill Extractors, and you can't get these without someone paying money for them. I have nothing against CCP doing this, but don't think this is free passive Isk for people. Somewhere, someone paid real cash.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#797 - 2016-04-10 15:09:09 UTC
Zoltan Cole wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp

..Quite the claim. Fortunately for game development, more players logged in simultaneously is more on TS and more ready to do something interesting.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Then reward me for logging on but don't give me tasks that I would only do in order to get this sp

..

A sand box game where you are given tools and a play place to make what you want with them

Not a theme park where you ate guided around to the differant attractions

It's odd that a single and basically-immediate action can inspire such claims like "it's not a sandbox game anymore". The ludicrousness is argumentatively self-defeating.

If there's no suggested alternative for such a simple action and such an effective reward (including getting players undocked), there's surely no reason to post.

Enjoy.


How this effects the sandbox is of your ad value to one task you detract it from other

This first iteration will not do that but they add more and more and suddenly people are no longer setting their own goals they ate just doing the highly rewarding goals set by ccp

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Zoltan Cole
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#798 - 2016-04-10 15:42:02 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Zoltan Cole wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp

..Quite the claim. Fortunately for game development, more players logged in simultaneously is more on TS and more ready to do something interesting.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Then reward me for logging on but don't give me tasks that I would only do in order to get this sp

..

A sand box game where you are given tools and a play place to make what you want with them

Not a theme park where you ate guided around to the differant attractions

It's odd that a single and basically-immediate action can inspire such claims like "it's not a sandbox game anymore". The ludicrousness is argumentatively self-defeating.

If there's no suggested alternative for such a simple action and such an effective reward (including getting players undocked), there's surely no reason to post.

Enjoy.


How this effects the sandbox is of your ad value to one task you detract it from other

This first iteration will not do that but they add more and more and suddenly people are no longer setting their own goals they ate just doing the highly rewarding goals set by ccp

Yet, the net whole is more players online. That's neat -- the game progression being mostly offline is an absolutely awful design for an MMO, especially that with a deep economy, and even more because of the limitations it puts on options (and thus interest). Players should be logging in and doing ******* spreadsheets because they know it makes them more money to reprocess X and produce Y than farming PvE anoms (and AFK!). This is min-maxing and it's mostly what video games / RPGs are. Digressing, if SP is supposed to be a thing in this progression of the game's development, players are where "it's" at.

This whole idea of a single rat encounter giving 10k SP making all of EVE Online some forced experience is complete drivel. Can it please stop.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#799 - 2016-04-10 15:53:25 UTC
Zoltan Cole wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Zoltan Cole wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
The goal of dailies is not to get more people playing just to get more ppl to log in increasing log in averages and thus will do just that. It's not a change to make things better for players but a change to make things better for ccp

..Quite the claim. Fortunately for game development, more players logged in simultaneously is more on TS and more ready to do something interesting.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Then reward me for logging on but don't give me tasks that I would only do in order to get this sp

..

A sand box game where you are given tools and a play place to make what you want with them

Not a theme park where you ate guided around to the differant attractions

It's odd that a single and basically-immediate action can inspire such claims like "it's not a sandbox game anymore". The ludicrousness is argumentatively self-defeating.

If there's no suggested alternative for such a simple action and such an effective reward (including getting players undocked), there's surely no reason to post.

Enjoy.


How this effects the sandbox is of your ad value to one task you detract it from other

This first iteration will not do that but they add more and more and suddenly people are no longer setting their own goals they ate just doing the highly rewarding goals set by ccp

Yet, the net whole is more players online. That's neat -- the game progression being mostly offline is an absolutely awful design for an MMO, especially that with a deep economy, and even more because of the limitations it puts on options (and thus interest). Players should be logging in and doing ******* spreadsheets because they know it makes them more money to reprocess X and produce Y than farming PvE anoms (and AFK!). This is min-maxing and it's mostly what video games / RPGs are. Digressing, if SP is supposed to be a thing in this progression of the game's development, players are where "it's" at.

This whole idea of a single rat encounter giving 10k SP making all of EVE Online some forced experience is complete drivel. Can it please stop.


I just said this first iteration of this will not change anything so no I'm not complaining about one rat


And there is nothing wrong with players being able to play without logging in that one of the better things about eve. I can have a wife and kid yet still play eve because I don't need to constantly log in.

Players can log in and play as often and for add long as they want and each is just as valid

Punishing players who enjoy playing this game one easy by rewarding people who play it another is bad for a sand box

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#800 - 2016-04-10 15:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Krevnos
T-Jay Charante wrote:
All they have to do is give multiple options in the daily list that cover all aspects of the game, that you would probably be doing any way if you undock, and the problem is solved. Killing a rat was mentioned in the OP, I'm sure they have more to the system than that sole activity.


Really?? How long have you been playing Eve?

Shall we go through a list of just a few instances where CCP has failed to expand adequately on features?:

Walking in stations (introduced as a half-baked feature, stayed that way)

Drifters (gameplay never evolved)

Null sec escalation complexes (many were missing for 8 years, some still aren't right)

Ghost Fitting (never actually made it to server)

The Rorqual (LOL)

The Certificates system (useless feature at best and down-right misleading at worst)

New camera (still disgusting, most have switched it off and switch it off again every time CCP switches it on for us after a patch)

The second generation launcher (it was so bad many players never switched from the legacy one). We have now moved the the third generation one.

New probe scanner (still inferior to old one, I switched it off).

Corporation management interface. After 12 years it's still a confusing heap of options that sometimes work when you find them.

Scanner overlay - an irritating pop-up that everyone accidentally brings up when they're trying to target whoever is warp disrupting them.