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Shallanna Yassavi
qwertz corp
#761 - 2016-04-10 11:34:34 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
People who are moaning that they "have to" log in everyday to compete with others in this questionable skillpoint-race should immediatly switch of their computers, go out and in a silent moment start to address a question to themselves: "Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" (indepentently from the question how CCP will assemble this mechanic)

If this goes in the way the original post says it will, everyone's going to get a slow, painful lesson.

A signature :o
Big Lynx
#762 - 2016-04-10 11:35:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Lynx
beakerax wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?"
this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay"

I would agree if ccp replaced skilling over time completely with SP grinding through dailies, weeklies etc. .. That would be the overkill
Lugh Crow-Slave
#763 - 2016-04-10 11:37:22 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
beakerax wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?"
this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay"

I would agree if ccp replaced skilling over time completely with SP grinding through dailies, weeklies etc. .. That would be the overkill


they dont need to completely replace it with dailies ect for it to be over kill

its a game design that has no place in the player created world of eve


Tell me why do you think this is a good idea other than "its not a bad idea"

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tristan Agion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#764 - 2016-04-10 11:38:10 UTC
We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.

It simply is not.

What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.

But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.

And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.

I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...

But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.

If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.

But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.
Dave Stark
#765 - 2016-04-10 11:43:08 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
beakerax wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?"
this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay"

I would agree if ccp replaced skilling over time completely with SP grinding through dailies, weeklies etc. .. That would be the overkill


it's like a 15% bonus, that's pretty substantial.

more than 15% if you don't have implants.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#766 - 2016-04-10 11:50:33 UTC
Tristan Agion wrote:
We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.

It simply is not.

What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.

But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.

And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.

I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...

But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.

If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.

But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.



The best thing to do would be to start players out with the mandatory skills like engineering rather than forcing them to train skills like this

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#767 - 2016-04-10 11:55:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
beakerax wrote:
Dror wrote:
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?
People who have experienced dailies in other games have made their concerns clear.

As for arguments in favour of dailies? So far I've seen "new player" fallacies and posts that apparently support this concept out of spite.

Given that Rise's new method of persuasion on these matters is to do nothing, I don't see much reason to effortpost.

Dailies from other games don't give the same benefit. Rep is uninteresting. Setting up "VIP Elite" points to cash out for some stats or whatever is as well, but we already have that with SP and real money, so why not get some for basically free? "Not feeling the idea? Don't do it," is valid. If players can't miss a few sessions of free SP, why do they have no say for how little SP newbies have?

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
why are so many ppl defending this hung up on the SP

the SP is not the issue here

the issue is CCP telling you how to play their game

the issue is CCP just seeing you as a log in number

the issue is EVE is a game you can play at your own pace with out ever feeling you need to log in

the issue is making ppl want to log in for such a hollow reason is LAZY and if we reward them for being lazy they will keep being lazy

It's A feature, with a single and immediately-completed task (that also happens to improve the SP situation, especially for fresh subs -- which is obviously the real purpose). "SP is not the issue"? It is. Figure out what gets fresh subs to retain (surely with scientific backing, which are plentiful in this post history), then maybe this thread's criticisms have some validity.

So, every character only does the best ISK income method or equivalent? Negative.

Krevnos wrote:
No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else.

i.e. Many players will be performing mundane daily tasks rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This is Theme Park MMO material.

Nobody is set to gain from this and everyone loses out, either on rewards or on their freedom of choice.

CCP Rise has clearly forgotten what Eve is about since he joined the development team.

See above for just about every point.

"Play more and get more" is ordinarily the mantra with MMOs. It's perfect, because status should be associated with playing the game or skill, and not paying for it. That all has nothing to do with "theme park" MMO design, as criticized, because it's true for both.

The obvious gain is the benefit of extra SP. If that's non-intriguing, then don't do it. If SP has become such a feature that it's ******* with the community, newbie or vet (and in any manner), it should just go.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
its not ppl moaning that they have to log in its ppl upset at an idea that is blatant manipulation to get them to log in by making them feel like the missed out if they dont

*Logic*

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#768 - 2016-04-10 12:00:53 UTC
guys I found the EA exec
Dave Stark
#769 - 2016-04-10 12:03:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.

It simply is not.

What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.

But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.

And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.

I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...

But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.

If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.

But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.



The best thing to do would be to start players out with the mandatory skills like engineering rather than forcing them to train skills like this


along with making content people want to log in for, rather than bribing them with SP. lets not get too crazy, though. we're getting daily quests anyway.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#770 - 2016-04-10 12:06:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Dave Stark wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Tristan Agion wrote:
We need to remove the "it's fantastic for newbies" aspect from the discussion.

It simply is not.

What is fantastic for newbies is gaining more SP faster, somehow, because EVE is just about the worst game I have ever seen concerning locking away content from new players.

But that does not mean that a particular method of giving nebwies more SP faster is any good. There will be good ways and bad ways of doing that.

And this proposal by CCP is a really dumb way of doing it.

I understand very much the frustration of newbies with the skill queue, and how they will clutch at anything that might deliver some more SP to them. I'm still at that stage myself...

But this desperate craving for SP should not cloud one's judgement concerning the means by which the SP is offered.

If some newbie (or for that matter vet) wants to argue that logging in daily to find a belt rat to pop is their idea of getting engaged with EVE, then fine - that is the discussion we should be having.

But we should not be discussing how it would be good for newbies to get more SP. That's no excuse for introducing this poor mechanism to EVE.



The best thing to do would be to start players out with the mandatory skills like engineering rather than forcing them to train skills like this


along with making content people want to log in for, rather than bribing them with SP. lets not get too crazy, though. we're getting daily quests anyway.


There is already plenty of that the problem is showing new players how to find it

EDIT

Or hell even some vets don't know how to

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#771 - 2016-04-10 12:17:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
beakerax wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tomika wrote:
It literally is doing something.

At least is more than "doh, only got 20 minutes, won't bother loggin in to EVE since there's nothing I could accomplish in so little time".

So you support dailies because they will encourage you to log in when you don't actually have time to play?


They change the definition of "time to play" from ~1 hour to ~20 minutes. That could be useful to me on certain occasions, and to some people also will make sense to make a quickie for 10,000 SP. And in any circunstances it makes PvE more rewarding for the same unfun.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#772 - 2016-04-10 12:25:55 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
beakerax wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tomika wrote:
It literally is doing something.

At least is more than "doh, only got 20 minutes, won't bother loggin in to EVE since there's nothing I could accomplish in so little time".

So you support dailies because they will encourage you to log in when you don't actually have time to play?


They change the definition of "time to play" from ~1 hour to ~20 minutes. That could be useful to me on certain occasions, and to some people also will make sense to make a quickie for 10,000 SP. And in any circunstances it makes PvE more rewarding for the same unfun.


You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#773 - 2016-04-10 12:39:27 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#774 - 2016-04-10 12:46:09 UTC
Dror wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.


OMG you're right how could I have been so blind that really is all that matters

Well screw dailies what will really get ppl online is a Yulia arena

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#775 - 2016-04-10 12:48:33 UTC
Dror wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.


yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry"

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Lugh Crow-Slave
#776 - 2016-04-10 12:51:21 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
Dror wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.


yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry"


What this never happens in any other game with dailies?


BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dave Stark
#777 - 2016-04-10 12:54:31 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Dror wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.


yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry"


What this never happens in any other game with dailies?




no, absolutely not. WoW still has 10m subscribers.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#778 - 2016-04-10 12:55:19 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:
Dror wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
You mean from ~1 hr to -2 minuts

And pve doesn't need to be any more rewarding is already what most ppl do in the game

CCP should not attempt to make any choice in gameplay inherentlybetter than another and they should not give a pair any definitive goal

More players logged on is more of a potential fleet. End of discussion.


yeah sure because nobody really cares about a fleet "i just logged on to do my daily then going out, sorry"


What this never happens in any other game with dailies?




nah not really because the bots have already done the dailies right after downtime

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Aluanna
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#779 - 2016-04-10 12:57:26 UTC
Honestly I'm on the fence about this..

Personally, I don't like the pressure to log in daily.. I'd much rather see this as a weekly thing that requires more effort, but also gives more reward..

Assuming it's going to be implemented..

Like every 6 days you log on and kill X NPC ships OR player ships, OR mine X ore (Not a checklist, just alternatives for those who don't partake in PVE)

And once that is done you get X free SP (say 50k) It's just like the dailies, only the pressure is to log on weekly and put a little effort in, not daily find a random anomaly, warp in, kill one ship, dock up and log out..

Ideas for missile launchers to make firing missiles more interesting/rewarding
Lugh Crow-Slave
#780 - 2016-04-10 13:07:28 UTC
Aluanna wrote:
Honestly I'm on the fence about this..

Personally, I don't like the pressure to log in daily.. I'd much rather see this as a weekly thing that requires more effort, but also gives more reward..

Assuming it's going to be implemented..

Like every 6 days you log on and kill X NPC ships OR player ships, OR mine X ore (Not a checklist, just alternatives for those who don't partake in PVE)

And once that is done you get X free SP (say 50k) It's just like the dailies, only the pressure is to log on weekly and put a little effort in, not daily find a random anomaly, warp in, kill one ship, dock up and log out..


So you understand the concept behind dailies in eve is faulty at best but you want the bonuse XP


I think this sums up the reasons ppl support this idea

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble