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[Citadels Release] Capital Ship changes reaching Singularity!

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Author
Jane Hemah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#281 - 2016-03-29 18:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jane Hemah
Why most of this becomes an issue is carriers can only fight sub caps but atm there is a better option for less sp

Either fighters need to be stronger/faster (to actually give them the range they appear to have) or haw need to have their dps cut 1/3

Or give carriers some heavys this makes them a better options to dreads do to flexibility but dreads become a better option because they can do more dps to either sub cap or capital.


Personally I like they idea of their role being anti sub cap and I think it will lead to better escalation progression but you cant let them be overshadowed by haw just so they don't compete in their specific role woth one of the super carriers roles

Don't get me wrong I do think haw should have a higher damage potential than carriers just not as much as they do now




The text up there is a quote.



Why not let the carriers use the HAW but with a small role bonus to ROF or damage?
Nothing to high so dread with HAW would still be a good option.
CCP take example the battlestar galactica.
I am sure that with the right bonuses they would a better anti sub cap like you want them to be. And I would use it more and you would more of them go POP. Is it not what you want? More ships that go POP.
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2016-03-29 19:20:38 UTC
what is HAW supposed to be? These anti-subcap capital guns?
In that case I dont like the idea. Its too complicated, messes too much with existing roles, and has no advantage to the simpler solution. Just increase fighter damage and remove the stacking penalty from FSU. Then carriers are fine.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#283 - 2016-03-29 20:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Marranar Amatin wrote:
what is HAW supposed to be? These anti-subcap capital guns?
In that case I dont like the idea. Its too complicated, messes too much with existing roles, and has no advantage to the simpler solution. Just increase fighter damage and remove the stacking penalty from FSU. Then carriers are fine.


This


Carriers do not need HAW
Sisi Collins
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#284 - 2016-03-29 20:48:07 UTC
Any news about capital PvE content? Does it true we will need to fit specific service module into X-large citadel to get access?
Thalesia
System lords Collective
#285 - 2016-03-29 22:51:01 UTC
So i've tested the new dreadnaught capital and subcap weapons

My testing came to roughly:
maxxed out phoenix does 1900 dps (5600 until reload unheated with full implants)
and a moros can pull roughly 4.2k fully faction fit with implants unheated thereabouts.

in comparison to a nidhuggur which with maxxed skills and faction lows can pull around 4k if u use missile skills on cooldown and has in my oppinion way better application.


question:
how can you possibly justify using a subcap dread over a nidhuggur post patch? it does same or less dps, has worse application and dosen't even need to siege, infact with the mwd it can even get away from stuff.

and not to mention that a dreadnaught costs way more (or atleast did pre patch???)

Suggested solution:
free subcap modules on the dreadnaughts from the siege module, it's too hard to be stuck for 5 minutes compared to the carriers, it's just not competative outside of wormhole space due to the high risk of a counterdrop within ur siege cycle.
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#286 - 2016-03-29 23:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Marranar Amatin
I doubt your 4k dps on the nid, as I mentioned earlier, a thanny with 5 DDA II und 5 FSU II does around 1445 with the main weapon. secondary is about the same dps (maybe 5% more). So spamming the missiles on cooldown (which is not possible because of reload) should not be more then 3k. faction modules are not that much better. maybe 3.3k with full faction.

Secondly:
You realize that the main role of the dread still is big damage against large targets? The ability to also shoot subcaps for still very good damage, is just a bonus that adds flexibility, not the main reason for bringng a dread. The carrier on the other hand has no other use than shooting subcaps, so obviously it should be better there.

On tranq, dreads are widely used for their damage abilities, obviously, being stuck for 5 minutes does not mean that they arent competetive outside wormhole space. They already are competetive. And on tranq they dont have the subcaps weapons at all.
Carrier on the oder side, are never used as damage dealers with fighters. And on Tranq their damage is even better then now on sisi.
Thalesia
System lords Collective
#287 - 2016-03-29 23:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Thalesia
Marranar Amatin wrote:
I doubt your 4k dps on the nid, as I mentioned earlier, a thanny with 5 DDA II und 5 FSU II does around 1445 with the main weapon. secondary is about the same dps (maybe 5% more). So spamming the missiles on cooldown (which is not possible because of reload) should not be more then 3k. faction modules are not that much better. maybe 3.3k with full faction.

Secondly:
You realize that the main role of the dread still is big damage against large targets? The ability to also shoot subcaps for still very good damage, is just a bonus that adds flexibility, not the main reason for bringng a dread. The carrier on the other hand has no other use than shooting subcaps, so obviously it should be better there.

On tranq, dreads are widely used for their damage abilities, obviously, being stuck for 5 minutes does not mean that they arent competetive outside wormhole space. They already are competetive. And on tranq they dont have the subcaps weapons at all.
Carrier on the oder side, are never used as damage dealers with fighters. And on Tranq their damage is even better then now on sisi.




your calculations are WAY off, I got 3660 on a maxxed out thanny with 4 normal dda's with firbolgs (highest dps drone) easily 4k with faction lows.

and the use of a dread as a anti capital weapon is not what i'm contesting, i'm contesting the subcap version as not being competative, and why should I do that in a dread and not just undock a carrier instead, it's not like the dread can swap to capital weapon mid fight?
Thercon Jair
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#288 - 2016-03-29 23:40:50 UTC
1. None of the Minmatar Carrier Skills seem to apply to mods fitted to the Lif.

2. It appears the Lif will be wholly underwhelming even with the cap booster charge bonus in place.


The issue still seems to stem from a couple things:

1. With sub-capitals, there are actual uses for non-tank slots.

2. An apostle can fit 2 Cap Armor Repairers while still attaining high resistances. To achieve the same rep amount a Lif needs to fit a shield boost amplifier.

2a. If the capacitor booster amount bonus is used, the Lif needs to fit a capacitor booster, removing yet another tank slot.

2c. If a Ninazu uses the capacitor booster amount bonus, it does not use up a tank slot.

3. Apostle/Minokava receive capacitor amount bonuses, while at the same time receiving a repair amount bonus.

3a. Lif/Ninazu receive the capacitor boost amount bonus, while receiving a cycle time bonus. The cap use is a lot increased if compared to the amarr/caldari counterparts. The cap boost amount bonus does not appear to make up for it at all. In fact, a single remote shield transfer uses the same cap in about 3 seconds that the booster can provide in 12 seconds.

This seems to make the gallente, and especially the minmatar FAX, pretty much useless.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#289 - 2016-03-30 00:49:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Thalesia wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:
I doubt your 4k dps on the nid, as I mentioned earlier, a thanny with 5 DDA II und 5 FSU II does around 1445 with the main weapon. secondary is about the same dps (maybe 5% more). So spamming the missiles on cooldown (which is not possible because of reload) should not be more then 3k. faction modules are not that much better. maybe 3.3k with full faction.

Secondly:
You realize that the main role of the dread still is big damage against large targets? The ability to also shoot subcaps for still very good damage, is just a bonus that adds flexibility, not the main reason for bringng a dread. The carrier on the other hand has no other use than shooting subcaps, so obviously it should be better there.

On tranq, dreads are widely used for their damage abilities, obviously, being stuck for 5 minutes does not mean that they arent competetive outside wormhole space. They already are competetive. And on tranq they dont have the subcaps weapons at all.
Carrier on the oder side, are never used as damage dealers with fighters. And on Tranq their damage is even better then now on sisi.




your calculations are WAY off, I got 3660 on a maxxed out thanny with 4 normal dda's with firbolgs (highest dps drone) easily 4k with faction lows.

and the use of a dread as a anti capital weapon is not what i'm contesting, i'm contesting the subcap version as not being competative, and why should I do that in a dread and not just undock a carrier instead, it's not like the dread can swap to capital weapon mid fight?



Except the anti sub cap role is secondary to a dread not primary. Where as with a carrier it's not only the ordinary role but the only role and takes much longer to train. As well the tests of done show dreads kill ships cruiser and above mitch faster than carriers and a dreads damage can't be destroyed.dreads other than the Phoenix also don't take nearly as long to reload witch vastly lowers the dps of fighters


Tbh haw made a lot of sense before we knew carriers were only going to be anti sub cap ships but now they will either be made useless by carriers or worse they will make carriers useless
Lugh Crow-Slave
#290 - 2016-03-30 00:57:08 UTC
Thercon Jair wrote:
1. None of the Minmatar Carrier Skills seem to apply to mods fitted to the Lif.

2. It appears the Lif will be wholly underwhelming even with the cap booster charge bonus in place.


The issue still seems to stem from a couple things:

1. With sub-capitals, there are actual uses for non-tank slots.

2. An apostle can fit 2 Cap Armor Repairers while still attaining high resistances. To achieve the same rep amount a Lif needs to fit a shield boost amplifier.

2a. If the capacitor booster amount bonus is used, the Lif needs to fit a capacitor booster, removing yet another tank slot.

2c. If a Ninazu uses the capacitor booster amount bonus, it does not use up a tank slot.

3. Apostle/Minokava receive capacitor amount bonuses, while at the same time receiving a repair amount bonus.

3a. Lif/Ninazu receive the capacitor boost amount bonus, while receiving a cycle time bonus. The cap use is a lot increased if compared to the amarr/caldari counterparts. The cap boost amount bonus does not appear to make up for it at all. In fact, a single remote shield transfer uses the same cap in about 3 seconds that the booster can provide in 12 seconds.

This seems to make the gallente, and especially the minmatar FAX, pretty much useless.



The gal and minm fac are to be used in sub cap fleets and not to permanently run their reps or get nearly the ehp of the amarr and caldari

However gal easily blows the lif out of the water similarly the Abbat one blows the Caldari out of the water


Over am the fax balance within its own classis very poor
Thalesia
System lords Collective
#291 - 2016-03-30 00:59:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Thalesia
ompalompa
Lugh Crow-Slave
#292 - 2016-03-30 01:14:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Thalesia wrote:
I don't agree, a dread that equips sub capital weaponry is comitted to that rule for the duration of combat. i'm saying that a carrier is superior in this aspect, and if you have access to all the skillpoints and isk needed, I will take a carrier for that role, if a dread is the only ship you have skills and isk for i understand ur reasoning more.

why is a carrier superior? it has no tracking component , orbit a dread at 500 and it's useless even with the new subcap weapons, barring a stasis webifier and a huge sig radius. (except for the phoenix)

obviusly it has less hp, but for a scenario like hit n run, or black ops, I see a carrier being WAY more effective as tank is less of a criteria. and it can push same if not more dps as a subcap dread.


Just because that is its role for that fight does not mean it is the primary rule for the hull

And for hot and run fleets like that conventional blops fleets would still be far superior.

Also these are capitals if you are trying to compare these hulls in a situation that would not involve a support fleet capable of webbing and painting targets the comparison is meaningless

A hull dedicated to anti sub cap should do that role better than a ship that can choose its role
Thalesia
System lords Collective
#293 - 2016-03-30 01:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Thalesia
ompalompa
Lugh Crow-Slave
#294 - 2016-03-30 01:46:56 UTC
Thalesia wrote:
your mentality on this is that a dread should be happy they can shoot subcaps at all?

the reason I wanted more out of this is because I do small gang pvp with 2-5 players w alts, so we don't have the luxury of putting X number of people in bloated and sub optimal ships.

I was hoping for a higher reward from fitting subcap guns and being sieged for 5 minutes than 4k ish dps.

and nids will be far superior to black ops for my fleet sieze bracket, 4k dps per carrier is vastly superior to any black ops ship, nevermind the far superior tank etc, i'm not saying nerf carriers, i'm saying buff sub cap dreads, take away the need for sieging while doing sub cap weapons.

or add the ability to carry 2 sets of weapons, and a ability to swap between them like a svipul with a significant cooldown (let's say 5 minutes)

also it's worth keeping in mind that they are REMOVING a dreads ability to fuckblap subcaps and giving them about the same a current carrier can deliver with full application bonus's applied. I personally would like a bigger return on the removal of a game feature which was cruical to small pvp groups like mine in dealing with being heavily outnumbered.


That's because my mentality IS that if ccp is going to force carriers into an anti sub cap role then dreads should be anti capital


Of you ate in a small gang and want a capital to help you with anti sub then use a carrier rather than make carriers obsolete


And again dreads currently on sisi kill ships cruisers and larger much faster than carriers I'm not sure where you got your numbers for carrier dps but they do significantly less than haw
Luscius Uta
#295 - 2016-03-30 08:13:53 UTC
I noticed that the Capital Ancillary Shield Booster doesn't even require Capital Shield Operation skill, which is not consistent with other capital modules. Also, the T2 25m plate requires only Hull Upgrades I, which in combination with the former issue leads me to believe that skill requirements of new capital modules aren't well thought of or balanced.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Kieron VonDeux
#296 - 2016-03-30 08:31:21 UTC
Luscius Uta wrote:
I noticed that the Capital Ancillary Shield Booster doesn't even require Capital Shield Operation skill, which is not consistent with other capital modules. Also, the T2 25m plate requires only Hull Upgrades I, which in combination with the former issue leads me to believe that skill requirements of new capital modules aren't well thought of or balanced.



Placeholder requirements are not release requirements.
Sisi Collins
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#297 - 2016-03-30 09:11:19 UTC
Today, I was running on test server drone hordes on dread. After 10 anomalies I had faction spawn on anomaly - but it was not battleship, it was carrier!!!!

So, anyone has such experience? may be if i was running anomalies on supercarrier - I would have faction super spawn???

Is it new capital PvE content???
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2016-03-30 10:45:44 UTC
Dreads will never be used in a small subcap gang, their whole mechanic is simply not made for that.
As all capitals they are very slow, and siege is very situational. Siege is a huge drawback for small subcaps fight, but great for big fights where you commit to the grid, and probably would want to have siege for the defense bonus alone.
Trying to balance the damage so that they are viable in small subcaps fights, would mean that they need ridicilous dps, making them completely overpowered in big fights where the drawbacks of siege is reduced.

So there is no point in comparing them to carrier or anything else for smaller subcaps fight... they never will be good there, and are not supposed to be good there.

Now in bigger fights, its ok when they are viable against subcaps (which they are with the new guns, the damage is nice), but still should not be top choice to bring them against subcaps. Because they already excel at shooting bigger stuff. If they also become the best choice to shoot subcaps, why bring anything else at all?
If i remember correctly there was a time when dreads were extremely good against caps and subcaps, and it was nerfed for a good reason.
The role as big gun in cap fights already works on tranq, the option to switch to subcaps guns is just a bonus.



Another thing about fighters:
They are not really balanced among each other. The stats seem to be identical in every way except speed and damage per hit. Firbolg for example has 16% more damage than Templar, while Templar is 16% faster. Not only makes this the Firbolg superior, since you are usually going to prefer the damage, it also means we will probably have a similar situation as we had before the drone changes: Either use Gallente Drones for the damage, or Minmatar Drones for the speed (but the speed bonus is probably too small to consider this, so just use Gallente for everything), but nothing in between. Unless you really want to shoot with a specific damage type.
If you want to keep this large difference in damage, then the weaker drones need some bonus to application.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#299 - 2016-03-30 11:24:21 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Dreads will never be used in a small subcap gang, their whole mechanic is simply not made for that.
As all capitals they are very slow, and siege is very situational. Siege is a huge drawback for small subcaps fight, but great for big fights where you commit to the grid, and probably would want to have siege for the defense bonus alone.
Trying to balance the damage so that they are viable in small subcaps fights, would mean that they need ridicilous dps, making them completely overpowered in big fights where the drawbacks of siege is reduced.

So there is no point in comparing them to carrier or anything else for smaller subcaps fight... they never will be good there, and are not supposed to be good there.

Now in bigger fights, its ok when they are viable against subcaps (which they are with the new guns, the damage is nice), but still should not be top choice to bring them against subcaps. Because they already excel at shooting bigger stuff. If they also become the best choice to shoot subcaps, why bring anything else at all?
If i remember correctly there was a time when dreads were extremely good against caps and subcaps, and it was nerfed for a good reason.
The role as big gun in cap fights already works on tranq, the option to switch to subcaps guns is just a bonus.



Another thing about fighters:
They are not really balanced among each other. The stats seem to be identical in every way except speed and damage per hit. Firbolg for example has 16% more damage than Templar, while Templar is 16% faster. Not only makes this the Firbolg superior, since you are usually going to prefer the damage, it also means we will probably have a similar situation as we had before the drone changes: Either use Gallente Drones for the damage, or Minmatar Drones for the speed (but the speed bonus is probably too small to consider this, so just use Gallente for everything), but nothing in between. Unless you really want to shoot with a specific damage type.
If you want to keep this large difference in damage, then the weaker drones need some bonus to application.


I of course agree on the dreads not out doing carriers thing

But for the drones I world rather see a larger increase in speed than in application. Basically you sacrifice damage for range rather than application. Carriers seem to want to have the ability to have great range but currently is a joke to try to use them past 100km
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#300 - 2016-03-30 12:03:22 UTC
Since NPC now attack fighters, a few more things:

-The aggro of fighters is very very high, in fact all rats completely ignored the carrier once fighters were out
-With enough navigation comps they can speed tank most aggro in nullsec, but will probably instantly die to sleeper.
-after they kill a target, they immediately stop and stand around, waiting for the next command. This is fine in principle, but you cant give a new command like "orbit" when the weapons are on cooldown. So worst case the fighter just stands around for a few seconds and gets shot... see the speedtanking.
-when calling fighters back, they also tend to stand around the carrier for no reason before docking. Not always, but sometimes. See speedtanking... just lost 3 fighters of a squadron to rats when I wanted to reload.
-The display when there are debuffs on the fighter (web, scram neut etc.) is bugged, the effect keeps getting displayed even when the effect is long gone because the ship that did it was killed.


Also: once you are used to it, I find the micromanaging of fighters (reloading, using missile swarm and mwd) in pve actually fun.
But its not very rewarding, since even when you spend a lot of effort in correctly managing your fighters, the damage and the ticks are still much lower than it was on tranq when you simply said "attack".
Also these theoretical dps calculations by adding the dps of the main gun and secondary gun, is not even close to reality. Its just not possible to keep the secondary gun active all the time, against multiple targets, the real damage is much lower. And you loose dps to reloading.
The total dps is just much too lower on carrier.