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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1381 - 2016-03-25 07:28:47 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Again though, I don't believe it will mess up the market, just some players easy, effortless gameplay which I'm totally fine with.

Just wondering, what's good in having higher participation hurdles and less players in the sandbox? In real life the speculators and their liquidity even when not contributing to the "real" economy, are an important stabilizer for markets, and ensure that price anomalies are corrected in short time. Taxing away the element of pure trade, is neither healthy in real life nor good for New Eden.

Also, this game is about space ships and explosions, and not primarily an economy simulator. The player-driven economy is important, but should serve a purpose for all players. Driving players away from the accessible markets (private contracts, out-of-game deals, inner alliance only trading, just quitting the game, ...) by prohibitive fees, will harm the game.

Actually the best solution for a smooth start IMO, would be to restrict large and extra Citadels to lowsec and below, combined with a tax/fee increase outside highsec to begin with.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1382 - 2016-03-25 10:19:19 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
[Just wondering, what's good in having higher participation hurdles and less players in the sandbox? In real life the speculators and their liquidity even when not contributing to the "real" economy, are an important stabilizer for markets, and ensure that price anomalies are corrected in short time. Taxing away the element of pure trade, is neither healthy in real life nor good for New Eden.

Also, this game is about space ships and explosions, and not primarily an economy simulator. The player-driven economy is important, but should serve a purpose for all players. Driving players away from the accessible markets (private contracts, out-of-game deals, inner alliance only trading, just quitting the game, ...) by prohibitive fees, will harm the game.

Actually the best solution for a smooth start IMO, would be to restrict large and extra Citadels to lowsec and below, combined with a tax/fee increase outside highsec to begin with.
It's not about having less people in it, it's about having less winners in it. The market at it stands is a goto moneymaker. You need no effort, no risk and barely any capital and you can be sure to make isk with even the tiniest amount of knowledge. like everything else it should take effort and knowledge to succeed at and should have risk.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1383 - 2016-03-25 14:56:21 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
[Just wondering, what's good in having higher participation hurdles and less players in the sandbox? In real life the speculators and their liquidity even when not contributing to the "real" economy, are an important stabilizer for markets, and ensure that price anomalies are corrected in short time. Taxing away the element of pure trade, is neither healthy in real life nor good for New Eden.

Also, this game is about space ships and explosions, and not primarily an economy simulator. The player-driven economy is important, but should serve a purpose for all players. Driving players away from the accessible markets (private contracts, out-of-game deals, inner alliance only trading, just quitting the game, ...) by prohibitive fees, will harm the game.

Actually the best solution for a smooth start IMO, would be to restrict large and extra Citadels to lowsec and below, combined with a tax/fee increase outside highsec to begin with.
It's not about having less people in it, it's about having less winners in it. The market at it stands is a goto moneymaker. You need no effort, no risk and barely any capital and you can be sure to make isk with even the tiniest amount of knowledge. like everything else it should take effort and knowledge to succeed at and should have risk.

This is the same, winning is equal to participation, as you would not play the market in the first place to lose money. The more players can harvest a price difference, the better market conditions for everyone. Also IMO you vastly exaggerate the income potential of Joe Trader with the small money. This is a viewpoint looking at EvE in general, of course as a capitalist I would like to control the market for my personal profit at the expense of everybody else. Blink

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1384 - 2016-03-25 15:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
So, Lucas, do you think the new losers will be happy with their lot, as decided and enforced by CCP?

Moreover, are you one of those winners or losers...

Still, I want to be part of this market where "no effort, no risk and little capital" is a "goto moneymaker" where you're "sure to make ISK".

Or could it be that you're exaggerating for effect?

We'll see.

Oh, and Teckos: the emoticon was meant to make the line a joke, not a 100% serious response. Still, if you're serious: ~2000 POCOs in LS are controlled by Shadow Cartel's alt corps. Don't think I don't know what I'm talking about, you'll just embarrass yourself.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1385 - 2016-03-25 17:21:18 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


Again though, I don't believe it will mess up the market, just some players easy, effortless gameplay which I'm totally fine with.

Just wondering, what's good in having higher participation hurdles and less players in the sandbox? In real life the speculators and their liquidity even when not contributing to the "real" economy, are an important stabilizer for markets, and ensure that price anomalies are corrected in short time. Taxing away the element of pure trade, is neither healthy in real life nor good for New Eden.

Also, this game is about space ships and explosions, and not primarily an economy simulator. The player-driven economy is important, but should serve a purpose for all players. Driving players away from the accessible markets (private contracts, out-of-game deals, inner alliance only trading, just quitting the game, ...) by prohibitive fees, will harm the game.

Actually the best solution for a smooth start IMO, would be to restrict large and extra Citadels to lowsec and below, combined with a tax/fee increase outside highsec to begin with.


I am not sure what you mean tax away element of pure trade, the tax is small even by historical standards. I suppose one could argue that we don't need more in the way of an additional ISK sink so don't do it.

The player economy does serve the game as a whole. Most things people build are either ships, modules or the inputs into those things. And why would this drive players away from anything?

As for your smooth start I think that would be pointless. My understanding is that all the outposts in NS will eventually be converted over to citadels. There won't need to be an incentive as that will be about all we have.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1386 - 2016-03-25 17:42:46 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
So, Lucas, do you think the new losers will be happy with their lot, as decided and enforced by CCP?

Moreover, are you one of those winners or losers...

Still, I want to be part of this market where "no effort, no risk and little capital" is a "goto moneymaker" where you're "sure to make ISK".

Or could it be that you're exaggerating for effect?

We'll see.

Oh, and Teckos: the emoticon was meant to make the line a joke, not a 100% serious response. Still, if you're serious: ~2000 POCOs in LS are controlled by Shadow Cartel's alt corps. Don't think I don't know what I'm talking about, you'll just embarrass yourself.


Well there were a number of threads awhile ago about people starting a new character (alt or otherwise) who set a goal to have a billion ISK in X amount of time. Basically starting out with whatever they had as a starting character. It was not unusual for people to achieve their goal--i.e. have a new billionaire in say 3, 4 months. If you don't mind market trading, it is a very good ISK maker. And the risk is very low compared to other ISK making ventures.

As for POCOS so what? Here is how I see it, if you just looked at who owned POCOs you'd fine the following general rankings:

NS alliances (non-renters)
LS alliances
HS

As for Shadow Cartel we have one observation that we also have no way of verifying except to take your word for it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1387 - 2016-03-25 17:54:12 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
So, Lucas, do you think the new losers will be happy with their lot, as decided and enforced by CCP?

Moreover, are you one of those winners or losers...

Still, I want to be part of this market where "no effort, no risk and little capital" is a "goto moneymaker" where you're "sure to make ISK".

Or could it be that you're exaggerating for effect?


Couple months ago I started trading in Amarr with a character with .33% broker fee, and 2 bil in seed money. Updating orders maybe 4-5 times a day across the course of my afternoon, I took that 2 Bil an turned it into 3 within a week. With only around 30 Buy orders and an equal amount of sell orders.

You really don't need a ton of trade to make more isk. An 12% margin between buy in sell on many items means I would make 10% after fees, even with only halfassed trading and moving around 1/1.5 bil a day in turnover, I was pulling in an easy 150ish mil a day in profits.

And with some patience, some more seed money, and a knack for price graphs, you can make some major cash. Inferno Fury Heavy Missiles are trading at 400 atm, but a week ago I was offloading them for 700 apiece. If you hit the lows and highs right, you can make bank.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1388 - 2016-03-25 18:46:15 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Rob Kaichin wrote:
So, Lucas, do you think the new losers will be happy with their lot, as decided and enforced by CCP?

Moreover, are you one of those winners or losers...

Still, I want to be part of this market where "no effort, no risk and little capital" is a "goto moneymaker" where you're "sure to make ISK".

Or could it be that you're exaggerating for effect?


Couple months ago I started trading in Amarr with a character with .33% broker fee, and 2 bil in seed money. Updating orders maybe 4-5 times a day across the course of my afternoon, I took that 2 Bil an turned it into 3 within a week. With only around 30 Buy orders and an equal amount of sell orders.

You really don't need a ton of trade to make more isk. An 12% margin between buy in sell on many items means I would make 10% after fees, even with only halfassed trading and moving around 1/1.5 bil a day in turnover, I was pulling in an easy 150ish mil a day in profits.

And with some patience, some more seed money, and a knack for price graphs, you can make some major cash. Inferno Fury Heavy Missiles are trading at 400 atm, but a week ago I was offloading them for 700 apiece. If you hit the lows and highs right, you can make bank.

And that potential is a draw for new players. In my case specifically, there would absolutely be one less player and 8 less accounts of it wasn't possible for a new player to make good money trading. It's amazing how incredibly bad the reward to effort ratio is for most ways a new player can get isk. Making the one exception unprofitable too seems like a bad idea.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1389 - 2016-03-25 19:57:32 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:

And that potential is a draw for new players. In my case specifically, there would absolutely be one less player and 8 less accounts of it wasn't possible for a new player to make good money trading. It's amazing how incredibly bad the reward to effort ratio is for most ways a new player can get isk. Making the one exception unprofitable too seems like a bad idea.


Okay, and....?

Please lay out why you could not trade in a HS citadel?

It is amazing how conservative and hugely pessimistic players often are. I mean holy crap, they change something and automatically it is "My play style is utterly destroyed!"

Why are you assuming that?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1390 - 2016-03-25 21:54:33 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:

And that potential is a draw for new players. In my case specifically, there would absolutely be one less player and 8 less accounts of it wasn't possible for a new player to make good money trading. It's amazing how incredibly bad the reward to effort ratio is for most ways a new player can get isk. Making the one exception unprofitable too seems like a bad idea.


Okay, and....?

Please lay out why you could not trade in a HS citadel?

It is amazing how conservative and hugely pessimistic players often are. I mean holy crap, they change something and automatically it is "My play style is utterly destroyed!"

Why are you assuming that?

I'm not saying my play style is being destroyed. I'm not in the market anymore because I found it too boring. That was also not in reference to the Citadel changes, but to all the people who were saying it's too easy to get into trading and there needs to be more risk and effort.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1391 - 2016-03-25 23:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Teckos Pech wrote:

As for your smooth start I think that would be pointless. My understanding is that all the outposts in NS will eventually be converted over to citadels. There won't need to be an incentive as that will be about all we have.

Fine, then there is no reason to mess with the market at all and we can stop this thread right here. Twisted

Regarding "taxing away" ... today a trader pays about 2% tax and fees to buy and sell an item on the market, means the price difference has to be higher than 2% to make him a profit. With the new model tax+fees sum up to about 9%, hence the price difference has to be more than that to make a profit with the trade, which of course is much harder to achieve.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Beta Maoye
#1392 - 2016-03-25 23:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
Small corp/individual players are losing ground. Many small manufacturers have already stopped producing anything because of the change in refining and manufacturing. Now small resource collectors and traders are losing the competitiveness in pricing because of the reasons stated in this thread.

Small individual players are a large number in EVE population. Not everyone is interested in playing the power game in order to succeed. I just hope the game will not come to a point that either join a blob to prosperous or leave.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1393 - 2016-03-26 00:50:07 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:
So, Lucas, do you think the new losers will be happy with their lot, as decided and enforced by CCP?
Probably not, but then people who are terrible at games often aren't happy when those games add challenges.

Rob Kaichin wrote:
Moreover, are you one of those winners or losers...
Time will tell.

Rob Kaichin wrote:
Still, I want to be part of this market where "no effort, no risk and little capital" is a "goto moneymaker" where you're "sure to make ISK".

Or could it be that you're exaggerating for effect?
Grab some isk and dive in. There's guides all over the place and literally programs that pretty must list to you what to sell, so you don't even need to think about it.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1394 - 2016-03-26 01:04:49 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

As for your smooth start I think that would be pointless. My understanding is that all the outposts in NS will eventually be converted over to citadels. There won't need to be an incentive as that will be about all we have.

Fine, then there is no reason to mess with the market at all and we can stop this thread right here. Twisted
How do you figure when that still leaves the point of creating comparative advantages for citadels across all space still largely unfulfilled.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#1395 - 2016-03-26 01:05:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Lucas Kell wrote:
There's guides all over the place and literally programs that pretty must list to you what to sell, so you don't even need to think about it.

Well then please do share. I've found many guides and programs, but nothing that provides more information than a week of practice in the market.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#1396 - 2016-03-26 17:45:09 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
There's guides all over the place and literally programs that pretty must list to you what to sell, so you don't even need to think about it.

Well then please do share. I've found many guides and programs, but nothing that provides more information than a week of practice in the market.
I'm not saying that anything does make up for practice, I'm just disputing your notion that it takes some superior skill or knowledge to make loads of isk off the market. It takes very little skill, very little startup capital and has nearly zero risk. Like every other mechanic it should be risk/reward balanced, and it isn't.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1397 - 2016-03-26 19:47:09 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

As for your smooth start I think that would be pointless. My understanding is that all the outposts in NS will eventually be converted over to citadels. There won't need to be an incentive as that will be about all we have.

Fine, then there is no reason to mess with the market at all and we can stop this thread right here. Twisted

Regarding "taxing away" ... today a trader pays about 2% tax and fees to buy and sell an item on the market, means the price difference has to be higher than 2% to make him a profit. With the new model tax+fees sum up to about 9%, hence the price difference has to be more than that to make a profit with the trade, which of course is much harder to achieve.


It depends on the values the citadel owners set as well. You can stay in your NPC station or you can eventually move. That is the point of this change.

As for HS, why should trading hubs not be put into the hands of players? Your profit margins? Yeah, no.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1398 - 2016-03-26 19:50:07 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
There's guides all over the place and literally programs that pretty must list to you what to sell, so you don't even need to think about it.

Well then please do share. I've found many guides and programs, but nothing that provides more information than a week of practice in the market.


There is this thing called google.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1399 - 2016-03-26 20:08:26 UTC
Beta Maoye wrote:
Small corp/individual players are losing ground. Many small manufacturers have already stopped producing anything because of the change in refining and manufacturing. Now small resource collectors and traders are losing the competitiveness in pricing because of the reasons stated in this thread.

Small individual players are a large number in EVE population. Not everyone is interested in playing the power game in order to succeed. I just hope the game will not come to a point that either join a blob to prosperous or leave.


I disagree with this. I see no evidence of this, and I do my own invention. I am not part of any effort by my corporation or alliance. They contribute...well...nothing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1400 - 2016-03-26 21:13:20 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

As for your smooth start I think that would be pointless. My understanding is that all the outposts in NS will eventually be converted over to citadels. There won't need to be an incentive as that will be about all we have.

Fine, then there is no reason to mess with the market at all and we can stop this thread right here. Twisted

Regarding "taxing away" ... today a trader pays about 2% tax and fees to buy and sell an item on the market, means the price difference has to be higher than 2% to make him a profit. With the new model tax+fees sum up to about 9%, hence the price difference has to be more than that to make a profit with the trade, which of course is much harder to achieve.


It depends on the values the citadel owners set as well. You can stay in your NPC station or you can eventually move. That is the point of this change.

As for HS, why should trading hubs not be put into the hands of players? Your profit margins? Yeah, no.

How many players? 1, 2 ... maybe 3 (and their minions)? If you say players you mean the big alliance and coalition leaders of the game.

I'm my own NPC alt.