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There's also the fact that people are lazy. Buyers are willing to pay more (within reason) for the convenience of getting everything they need at once. So assuming two citadels have similar ease of access, if Citadel A has Jita's stock but high fees and Citadel B has low fees but low stock, which one will buyers go to? Obviously it depends on the buyer, but in many cases if they can't get everything they need at Citadel B but they can at Citadel A, they'll be willing to pay a certain amount more for the convenience of only going to Citadel A instead of both. That has something of a snowballing effect where buyers go to Citadel A because they know they can find everything they need, and sellers go to Citadel A because they know they can sell their stuff quickly and easily. That effect stabilizes the market against competition from Citadel B even though Citadel A has higher fees. Citadel B only starts to gain traction when one of three conditions occurs:
1. The sellers in Citadel B can afford to undercut Citadel A by enough that buyers value the ISK they save more than the effort of going to both locations to get what they need.
2. Someone stocks Citadel B enough that buyers can get everything they need in Citadel B and choose to do so because of the lower prices.
3. The sellers can make more profit from the few buyers that come to Citadel B than from the many that frequent Citadel A.

If something like that happens to reduce the inconvenience or increase the value of going to Citadel B, more buyers come through and more sellers move in, shifting the market toward the location with the lower prices. Below that critical point though, players will tolerate higher fees and some of the detrimental effects of a monopoly due to convenience.

That's why hubs exist and why they won't go away without CCP doing something incredibly stupid to force people to spread out. Whether the hubs move to citadels or not really comes down to just how much inconvenience people will tolerate for better prices. We'll see, but I still think if they go with 5% brokers fee in NPC stations the results won't be pretty, and the increase in tax just hurts the entire market with no benefit.

I'm not sure what you mean about markets being too easy to drop in and out of, but raising brokers fees and/or taxes has widespread negative effects. For example, it hits T2 and T3 producers extremely hard because they have to deal with the additional costs in the prices of raw materials, intermediate materials, and finished products. It also very directly hurts traders that buy and resell our unwanted stuff, so good luck getting a decent price for it or getting it for a decent price. Same for those who buy things in one place and transport them for resale where they're needed. Increased brokers fees also heavily penalize those who put up orders that may not be filled quickly enough, drastically reducing the viability of placing buy or sell orders for rare items or in relatively unpopular locations.

Sure, increased brokers fees make it harder to recover from bad market decisions, but that just means less players will be willing to make market decisions at all, to the detriment of prices and availability. It also hurts new players far harder than more established traders that have good skills and standings and know what to trade and where to trade it.

Not to mention the tax increase does nothing for citadel owners and directly discourages the sale of items. Again, it hits new players the hardest since they lack skills to reduce the tax.


There are plenty of other incentives to make citadels that won't mess up the whole market and make players angry, many to the point of quitting. The only people who won't be hurt by such a change are those who already have vast stockpiles of items for personal use.

Typically the convenience profit percentage for capsuleers selling to others is set to 10%-15%
With broker fees and transaction tax, 1%+1.5%= 2.5% of that profit margin is taken off the sale

Which CCP Economist thought it was a smart idea to raise the cost of sales to 2.5%+6%= 8.5%

Regards, a Freelancer

ps: I would like to see a dev blog what top 10 alliances / corporations own planetary interaction custom offices
This way we the eve "community" can understand what to expect once large entities start to build citadels in Hisec

I'm curious, what would you expect to be the results if CCP were to do this?

You could jut get people to fly around reporting in all POCOs though, make a lit yourself.

I'd expect them to be run by actual corps, most of them by merc corps. The reality is that POCOs were tested as a potential moneymaker but the reality of how low an income they generate makes them not worth it. My highsec industrial corp has owned about 10 overall since they've been out and all gold sold or given away. I doubt most large alliances would consider it worth the effort.

Great job turning even the lack of evidence into evidence. Well done!

I went through several systems in HS and each system had different POCO owners, some systems even had multiple POCO Owners. I'm sure thought that all of them were actually alt alliances/corps for [insert whomever you have hard on for at the moment here].

To be fair when we lived in Cloud Ring one of the things we did was go and blow up everyone's POCO in Outer Ring and installed our own POCOs with a 10% tax rate. If the locals shot them we used it a chance to get a fight and have fun. If they didn't we collected a nice flow of ISK.

Of course that was pre-jump fatigue not sure we'd do it now in a similar situation now. Of course all the POCOs in our sov systesm...we own. Shocking and horrible I know. It will probably kill Eve.

So, want to get a list of the top 10 POCO owning alliances look at Dotlan. Might want to exclude renter alliances such as Shadow of xXDeathXx since the renter corps may own those. So top of the list is probably Solar Fleet, Goonswarm, Infamous, FCon, etc.

A misunderstanding. I was thinking along the way that someone wants the badge: "I blow up Jita (insert actual Name)". Something rivaling Jita will be a massive cash machine AND a prime target.



I would not disagree here but citadel markets need a unique feature that makes them better and not just cheaper then NPC markets or they will be DOA. How often will a Trader have to rearange all of his deals because the citadel got blown up before he goes: "**** 5% taxes I can still make a profit if I just raise the prices".

The transport fee would be paid by the buyer. And it's totally okay that Red Frog is cheaper if you move massive amounts. The thing is: You don't have to store everything in one place which might be the wrong place for the customer.
This System is intended to move single assets quickly and costly but not a whole batch thats the Job of Red Frog. Think of it as Amazon in Space. This way the trade will distribute over numerouse citadels instead of massing up in one.

If something is to rival Jita it will create tons of ISK for one and only one Company that needs to be big enough to defend it against everyone else. This might give you epic battles each week at citadel maintenance but if they just loose once or twice the traders will go back to Jita 4-4. If you distribute the trade over numerouse Systems many smaller companies can profit and there will be no "Target ONE" but many smaller Targets that will not give the attacker such a boost as killing Jita replacement.

But when you are not selling in Jita there will be no 5% fee and if the tax in the citadel is a 1% you are at -4% Jita to begin with. Sure it will take time but without a access to a very wide range of products there will be no chance for citadels. Thtas exactly the reason why som many People flock to Jita because you can buy and sell everything. Without this or another special feature there will be no replacement and because the new modules will have monthly costs of fuel you will have to create a certain amount of trade to make it worth while. At the moment I don't think that it will be worth to replace some lousy starbase out in the dark of New Eden.
I would like to see some spreadsheet how much trade you would Need depending on the taxes to hit the break even and how many Starbases get this amount of trade. If the citadels go up you will at least double the number of markets or the feature will not be worth the amount CCP invests in it. And more markets mean less trade in each......