EVE General Discussion

How do you think the PvP guys get their stuff?

If you want to inconvenience somebody you attack their supply lines, most of which are provided by people/ alts in corps not associated with them.

Au contraire sir, the economy is driven by both production and destruction; kindly place your ignorance back in its brown paper bag before its ugly visage offends somebody.

If nothing explodes who are those miners and freighter pilots going to sell or transport their wares to?

Been there, done that; mined in null, mined in wormholes, never lost a mining ship to either place; it's not especially hard to avoid being a shiny target either given the intel networks in null.

A little (not so little) secret.

A large group of players are involved in virtually all activities the game has to offer.

CCP even has a name for them. They call them 'professionals':

http://i.imgur.com/YN43Yl2.png

They pvp, manufacture, mine, run missions and socialise.

They actually perform more science and industry than the pure entrepreneurs, though a bit less mining.

If the miners were 'scrared away', others would just pick up the slack. That's the way Eve has been since it started. People come and go all the time (lately going more than coming) and still the economy expands.

There are no special snowflakes that should be cared for more than others. Everyone has to look after themselves, whether professional, entrepreneur, aggressor, social or traditional.

Or if you decide to autopilot your months earnings from jita to amarr
You can't patch stupid.

Just like sov null, there are many systems in NPC Null good for mining (true sec low enough to mine some of the more valuable ores, but not as good as sov null) that are empty most of the day.

Some regions have NPC null that you wouldn't mine in as an independent player (eg. Blood Raiders NPC systems in Delve, because that's PLs home), but a lot of NPC null is perfect for an individual to mine in, totally alone and undisturbed for a lot of the time.

I run Loki mining links* on one character, a Skiff on another, with a third floating around adjacent systems as a scout. That's only because I do it independently of others, but with a few friends that want to mine in null, it's easy to mine safely if you pay attention. NPC null is no more populated really than most of sov null (and less populated than some areas of sov space).

*running a Loki provides more flexibility to ninja mine anywhere in null, since it is able to move around easily in comparison to an Orca/Rorqual that would require a POS and be difficult to move to new systems,etc.

Generally, the costs to War Dec are high enough to keep most corps/alliances from War Deccing the small corps. That's reasonably balanced.

As Ralph does with his usual to the point posts, that won't stop small corps or players from making dumb choices that will still get them blown up or War Dec'd because they did something dumb to someone far larger than them.

CCP has no reason to fix that, they can't.

However, there does seem to be a genuine consensus on both sides that War Dec's aren't working in their current incarnation. That can be taken two ways by CCP: Either it's balanced and just universally disliked, or it is something they need/want to fix but don't really have a plan on how to fix it right now.

I think it's great that everyone is chiming in on this, but it's probably best if we de-personalize this issue and stop beating on each other, even if we might think they are EVE-challenged (I know I am...) it doesn't help to bash no matter how good it might make us feel in the short term. It turns people away from what is an interesting topic to discuss. (Although we all seem to like watching a good train wreck, they don't usually end well for the trains.)

The main problem with wardeccs is, that they can be prolonged indefinitely and that there is nothing the defender can do to win. He has to disrupt his playstyle to hunt the aggressor while the aggressor can simply dock. There need to be something like the POS mechnic that the aggressor has to defend something to hold on to the dec or Concord will declare the wardec void. At least a wardec should be limited to 1 week with a 3 week cooldown as long as the defender has not wardecced someone himself.

Something that would reduce Wardeccs would a module that destroys the whole cargo of a ship (not the ship itself). Works only in High and if you are attacked by the aggressor. That would destroy any intention to wardecc someone for legal piracy. You can still kill him for his cargo but only outside of the decc and you will have to live with the normal consequences.

BTW: is there some statistic that shows how much ore is mined in which region?

THIS!




I'm in an indi corp. Doing hisec, lowsec, and wh type "stuff". Lately, plagued with endless trade hub wardeccers. If we go after them, they dock. It's just endless meaningless war with basically no fighting at all. They (the wardeccers) just want to blow up easy targets at Amarr and Jita gates and we (for the mort part) are not stupid enough to fly there. We fleet up and go hunt them and they dock up and logoff. They obviously don't want a real fight.

I don't have a solution, but yes some way to bring the war to a head, fight and end it, is what I feel is required. I'm not much of a PVP'er, but I'd like to be. However, having war targets simply wait at hisec gates for easy prey to come along in the wrong ship/fit as an easy kill isn't exactly my idea of PVP. Our attackers know where our home is. It's in lowsec, if they want a fight they don't even have to wardec us. Just come on over and fight!

Where is it stated that the wardecs are not intended to disrupt play indefinitley? It's not like they're hard to avoid if you really must carry on grinding, you just drop corp and go back into an NPC one.

Actually Eve is 100% PvP, I suggest you take a read of the new player FAQ, start at page 21 where CCP explicitly state (emphasis mine) "Furthermore, as we mentioned previously, once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept. In the asteroid field you’re competing with other pilots to obtain resources; you may also have to defend against ore thieves. On the market you battle for control of the economy in certain areas; for the supply and demand of your products versus other aspiring tycoons. On the battlefield you may fight for glory, for money, or for the right to rule whole areas of space."

What is this crap? I'm not even going to bother addressing it, the idiocy speaks for itself


According to CCP everything is PvP, so your summary is correct, mining is in fact a form of PvP because you're competing with others for limited resources. Anybody that says asteroids aren't a limited resource hasn't tried to mine within 10 jumps of Jita when the server has been up for 15+ hours; although trying to do so is a silly idea when there's plenty of untouched belts elsewhere.


Who said anything about fair? If you find yourself in a fair fight of any kind in Eve, one or all of the involved parties has arranged it that way, or screwed up.

If you feel that people are abusing game mechanics, petition them. In the case of wardecs you may not like the answer the GM team gives you though.

It actually is. If you actually read the New Pilot FAQ, you'll find statements like "as we mentioned previously, once you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept" and "there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided".

You do not get to avoid PvP by design. That is the core game concept.


Jita is dangerous because it is the hub of trade in the game and thus much of the wealth transits through, and as we just discussed, no where is suppose to be safe. That means the pirates follow. This is not only logical, but is predictable. Highsec is every much a part of the harsh universe as anywhere else, and yes while there are consequences for aggresson, that aggression is specifically allowed to occur by CCP. Wars are absolutely necessary with the current structure mechanics to shoot a structure, otherwise CONCORD would make them invulnerable.

You do not get to have the benefits of these corporate structures while CONCORD provides you free and complete protection.

Why do so many carebears have difficulty with this concept. PvP stands for player vs. player. Asteroids are not run by players; they are free resources that give you an in-game benefit when harvested. Freighters are piloted by a human being who can make many choices to get their goods safely from A to B. These included undocking a triple-expanded freighter, pressing 'Autopilot' and then wandering off to make a sandwich, or alternatively, arranging for an escort, scouting the route and manually flying their tanked hauler. The outcome of the contest between the pirate and the hauler is likely to be completely different depending on what choices the hauler makes, and what choices the pirate makes.

This whole game is a competitive, single-universe sandbox where practically everything you do affects everyone else. It is PvP all the way down.

Adopting the entosis mini-game to wars means wars will be useless against any group more powerful than you. If you cannot hold the grid, then you lose the ability to continue the war against your opponent meaning large entities, like Goonswarm, will be immune to wars. Guerrilla wars would be impossible, and worse, structures that belong to these large groups would be immune to attack. It is a bad idea all around.

Wars, and wars that cannot be ended early by the defender, are absolutely necessary with the current way structure bashing is set up. It will take two wardecs, and over 7 days to see a highsec citadel bash through until the end. CCP will let you see your bash through to the end so wars are not going anywhere. In fact, they will probably be many more as players start to shoot each others' citadels and the other forthcoming new structures.

Since most players agree that shooting structures is a good use of wars, while there is a strong dislike for opportunistic gate and hub campers, perhaps the solution is to make wars only possible against corporations with structures. But that solution, or one of the many alternative options like "corp lite", will have to wait until CCP gets around to looking at war and corporation mechanics in the future.

But the bottom line is wardecs aren't fair because Eve isn't fair. There is nothing CCP will change to fix that as that fact is at the very core of Eve itself.

(Damn, I knew I should have let Jonah handle this one... :))

Yes. I agree. I think they are indeed mostly clueless to really how different Eve is as a game. Fair enough; not everyone has the interest to study the basic game design of every game before jumping in, but you think once they had that unique game play hit them in the face a few time, they would look into things. Regardless, I wish they wouldn't spout off things like "Eve is a sandbox which supports all play styles" or "Eve isn't a PvP game because it has other things than ship combat in it" as if they know what they are talking about.

Just because there is PvE in Eve does not mean you can play Eve as a PvE-only game, just like because you can pick flowers on a WoW PvP server, doesn't mean you are safe from PvP there. The PvE in Eve is specifically designed to put you at risk to other players, and the fact that other players can take your stuff means that they will often exercise that option and shoot you. That is the core concept of the game despite what some players want to believe.

CCP clearly tries to get this concept across in the new player experiences, and it is emphasized multiple times in the New Pilot FAQ that new pilots seem not to read. And you'd think that by now, well over a decade after release, word would have gotten out how unfair Eve can be. But clearly there are players that come with expectations different from the reality of the game, and when their expectations clash with the truth, you get threads like this one complaining about core game play.

Wars in a game specifically designed to put players in direct conflict and cause space wars? Crazy, I know.