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Ok am I mis-reading something in the dev blog?

According to the new one it says that for a Medium Citadel I need 4 separate rigs for full refine facilities even though only 3 slots are available? wtf?

Whereas L and XL citadels still only get 3 slots, but only need 2 and 1 rigs for full refining facilities. That's a pretty big disadvantage for a small corp wanting a Medium Citadel.


Medium rigs (only apply to Astrahus):
Tech I and II rigs that applies for high-sec ores: Veldspar, Scordite, Pyroxeres, Omber, Kernite and all variants.
Tech I and II rigs that applies for all other ores: Arkonor, Bistot, Crokite, Dark Ochre, Gneiss, Mercoxit, Spodumain, Hedbergite, Hemorphite, Jaspet and all variants.
Tech I and II rigs that applies for: Clear Icicle, Enriched Clear Icicle, White Glaze, Pristine White Glaze, Dark Glitter and Gelidus
Tech I and II rigs that applies for: Blue Ice, Thick Blue Ice, Glacial Mass, Smooth Glacial Mass, Glare Crust, Krystallos.

Large rigs (only apply to Fortizar):
Tech I and II rigs that applies for all ores.
Tech I and II rigs that applies for all ices.

X-Large rig (only applies for Keepstar):
Tech I and II rigs that applies for all ore and ices.

Depends how you're counting size. We tend to have more characters because we have a ludicrous amount of alts, but most are utility alts. In terms of sov, N3/PL were quite a bit bigger that us while working against us, and the fountain war saw a sizable coalition form against us. Even the proviblock where everyone and his nan dogpiled in against us would be a pretty good example. Or do other groups cooperating not count?

Also, are we talking smaller groups as in literally anyone smaller in numbers than us, no matter by how much of a margin? Because the way you worded that by saying "Which might be a problem if there aren't any smaller groups to go after...." originally made it sound like you want to pretend most of our content was smashing down hundred man alliances. If PL for example counts as a "smaller group", then there will definitely be "smaller groups" still in existence after the change.

Seems OK to me. That's the benefit of paying out for a bigger citadel over a medium one. I imagine for most places though having just two types of ice refining and all the ores would be suitable, since you'd be mainly looking to refine local ice, would you not? If a medium could do everything a large could there'd be no point in sizing up.

Nope, we mine everything, including different ice.

Maybe grouping all ice into one would be better, we still have to use all 3 slots but at least we have the same facilities as now. The L and XL still get the advantage of not having to use all 3 slots.

The issue of the Tobin tax is a red herring issue and nonsense. What CCP is doing is what it has been doing for years. Move things they controlled over into player's hands as much as possible. Now it is broker's fees. They will not be a tax, but a price that can be set by citadel owners.

As for both markets being health (NPC stations and citadels) I don't care. I want the overall market and game healthy. If that means ultimately NPC station trading goes the way of the dodo...so be it. Just as damn few of us use a horse and buggy to get around in. The economy moves on.

And no, it is NOT a transaction tax, it is a fee and is more accurately described as an explicit transaction cost (as opposed to implicit transaction costs). Calling a fee a tax then all prices are taxes and that is just daft.

Dude, prices are NOT taxes. Stop comparing things that are not alike.

A tax is usually levied by a government. Citadel owners are not governments. Second they are often levied to pay for public goods, there are no public goods here. Taxes maybe levied to curb a negative externality and to the extent that a subsidy is a negative tax to promote a positive externality.

It is no more a tax than the park entry fee at Disneyland is a tax.

You are completely wrong in your approach here in many different ways. Looking at just traders, insisting that the NPC station strading post change be "healthy" as opposed to the market being "healthy". Now, you want to insist that this change is a tax which carries with it a whole host of different issues than if a firms costs go up (or down) for some reason.

Trying to argue by analogy when you do not have to is just plain old vanilla stupid. Don't be stuck on stupid.

If any entity in the game is like a government it is CCP. Note when CCP sets broker's fees it is universe wide and nobody can avoid them at all.

Player run citadels are similar, in that if you want to access the market via their citadel you will have to pay, but you can shop around for the best deal. It is like saying, "I must pay for a loaf of bread at the super market, therefore the price is a tax." Under this definition all prices become taxes which is just stupid and useless.

Here is one of the problems with the view of "all prices are taxes" taxes (except in the cases of externalities and perfect information--hah on that last one BTW) are by definition distortionary. Prices are not.

Lucas,

Taxes carry with them extra baggage prices do not. It is just that simple. As such...yeah, sadly we are arguing terminology. I think your description is correct. A rare moment where we agree.

Yeah, we're, unbelieveable, disagreeing over terminology.

" It is like saying, "I must pay for a loaf of bread at the super market, therefore the price is a tax." "

I must pay for a loaf of bread, but the higher price at this shop is due to a tax levied by the government. This happens. The increase in price is an increase in tax.

This, surely, is not contestable.

Still, in a surely rarer situation, I too am in agreement with Lucas.

Apart from one section: I don't see the failure of NPC stations to be a desired or desirable outcome.

NPC stations provide opportunities and situations that Citadels won't, and it's worth keeping that, I think.

But this is so assuredly outside what we're meant to be talking about that I'm not sure it's worth raising.

What a load of pure Bravo Sierra. No. Just no. Simply because I charge you for access to something you value and for which I have incurred a cost to provide to you...does not make it tax nor I a government. That is just bullshit.

NPC stations are not going anywhere. But they could effectively become irrelevant if players find that citadels meet or exceed whatever they were getting from NPC stations.

As for your Tobin tax, I've gone back and read about it. Again, a bullshit analogy. Utter bullshit. The idea of a Tobin tax is to reduce volatility in the foreign exchange markets, reduce the prevalence of foreign exchange crises, lead to better macroeconomic outcomes and raise money for development of less developed countries. But the issue all hinges on a...wait...wait...a foreign exchange market. Second a Tobin tax is paid twice. Once when you buy, then again when you sell. Broker's fees just do not fit this bill.

We don't have a foreign exchange market in Eve unless you count PLEX and to be quite honest I see no need for a Tobin tax there.

So we have ruled out the Tobin Tax, the VAT tax. One could argue it is sales tax, but that is nonsense too. Nobody argues that a fee to gain access to something desirable that the charging party has paid for is a government and that its asking price is a tax.

The idea of trying to link the borker's fee to being a tax is more disingenuous nonsense to justify leaving traders with their existing fee structure and the ISK they are currently making--i.e. it is pure and simple rent protection. "Don't touch my profits!!!!!"

This is just another iteration in the direction CCP has been going since the game first came out. Move more activities into the hands of players.