These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

Forum Index

EVE Forums » EVE Technology and Research Center » Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center » [Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

Topic is locked indefinitely.

First pagePrevious page4950515253Next pageLast page

[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes First post
Author

Previous Topic Next Topic

Anhenka

Native Freshfood

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 1,697

#1001 - 2016-03-13 22:30:50 UTC

Aaron Honk wrote:

Anhenka wrote:

Because we believe it is important to the long term health of the game that Citadels, which are with no doubt the most important feature added to this game since outposts were added in 2005, become a healthy and integral part of the game.

Oh yeah you sounds like the kind of guy with his hand on his heart ready to help others, or sacrifice himself for the community Lol

You are here defending broker fee because of personal profit as much as everyone else in this thread.

Funny thing that. Because I currently pay .25% broker fee's in Amarr, and have around 16 bil in buy orders atm. http://puu.sh/nFv3g/ccc06e7bb7.png The introduction of Citadels will only disrupt the trade patters I make money off of.

On a personal level, I'm certainly not going to benefit from paying someone else broker fee's instead of Amarr unless they have a lower than .25% fee.

On an alliance level... We live 35 jumps from Jita in Fountain, and the alliance is so poor we don't have any SRP for anything.
Putting up a trade citadel and defending it? Not going to happen.

I also advocated for jump changes, even though I was in one of the heaviest cap and supercap alliances around at the time, and I personally have 4 capital capable characters, because the game needed it.

I supported the nerfing of module reprocessing, because it was being too harmful to the gameplay of entry level miners and highsec players that so many new people start at as before moving to a more interesting part of the game. Even though I had a dedicated copy char and 5 of each researched 800mm autos, 425 rails, and each of the Citadel torpedoes, and a thriving business exporting minerals to Wicked Creek.

I supported the nerfs to garage door cynos, even thought we used them to safely transport our cap fleets under PL's nose.

Because there were bad mechanics. And the the game is better for their absence, despite my personal reliance on them at the time.

And now it's the super low broker fees turn on the chopping block, to promote better Citadel gameplay.

Rob Kaichin wrote:

Also, Outposts more important than Supercaps or FW or Wormholes or .... etc? I think you may be just a little wrong there.

I'd say so yeah, we wouldn't have had the nullsec empires if we were all living out of POS's with their nightmare access management.

WH's are a close second, I'd agree, but I'd still place the mechanic that allowed players to spread and live across nullsec above it.

GreyGryphon

The Spartains

Likes received: 15

#1002 - 2016-03-13 23:27:24 UTC

Teckos Pech wrote:

Hmmm...whom should I believe?

The guy who is arguing in line with his vested interests....?

Or the guy arguing against his own vested interests....?

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

Why should you disbelieve someone who has vested interests? Their goals and motivations should be clear while the other person's goals and motivations are hidden. Does appearing "holier-than-thou" really make you want to believe someone?

We are playing EVE right?

Missile Rebalance

Teckos Pech

Hogyoku

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 6,771

#1003 - 2016-03-13 23:45:00 UTC

GreyGryphon wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

Hmmm...whom should I believe?

The guy who is arguing in line with his vested interests....?

Or the guy arguing against his own vested interests....?

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

It is indeed potentially suggestive. That one is arguing in favor on one's own self interest or not is information you can use to evaluate a hypothesis or argument before you even look at the hypothesis/argument.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Marcus Tedric

Zebra Corp

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 143

#1004 - 2016-03-13 23:56:26 UTC

Kuekuatsheu wrote:

.............................. And new players have to trade in citadels or loose 7.5% of their seller orders value to tax + broker's fees from the higher rate NPC stations.

Is that:

a) So bad?

b) Actually what newer players do? Or is more likely/practicable that new(er) players sell to buy orders?

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Teckos Pech

Hogyoku

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 6,771

#1005 - 2016-03-14 00:17:59 UTC | Edited by: Teckos Pech

Rob Kaichin wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

Rob Kaichin wrote:

I don't see this as a simple tax increase: no system in real life operates under the same conditions as the Eve market, or so I am aware. It's absolutely not a direct fit, but the tax increases are in some ways comparable to a Tobin Tax. I believe it will decrease the volume of trading and the number of players who will go into market trading. (Post edit: as it did in Sweden)

It's hard to see how these changes will play out due to their dissimilarity to real life, I acknowledge, but it's worth trying to work it out.

If anything RL economies are far, far more complex. There is much, much more innovation and creative destruction, and leverage is a much more of a factor. Not to mention the meddling in the economy for political reasons. So this notion that the Eve economy is more vulnerable strikes me as dubious at best.

We have nothing at all like this in the Eve economy. Literally nothing. Making a well publicized change to something like taxes which everyone can see and can figure out the effects of...has not had the same effect....ever.

As for limit entry pricing that is a theoretical possibility, but it is harder to find in real life. This is why you find alot of legislation that in the end is designed to limit entry into markets. Examples are licensing requirements, certification, trade barriers, and so forth. It's a great story that sounds good when you first hear it, but in reality the idea of a dominant firm keeping out entrants without the coercive power of government is not much more than that a story.

I kinda get the sense that you misread my post :).

I've emphasised where we agree: we both think that the Eve economy isn't like real life. Our difference is in our interpretations of the action of the tax increase: you're treating it like it's an income tax issue, which I disagree with: a more comparable tax would be a V.A.T or Sales tax. It's still not exactly comparable, but it affects the items and not the purchaser, which an income tax change would.

I'm treating the tax as a financial transactions tax, which I feel is more suited than a consumption tax. The implementation of a Tobin Tax in Sweden led to a decrease in trading volume, collected taxes and the vanishing of futures trading. Needless to say, the experiment ended very quickly.

As for vulnerability, I didn't realise I'd raised the issue. I do believe that all complex systems have vulnerabilities though, and it isn't good to magnify them. Shock therapy doesn't work, as I understand.

Finally, we both agree that Eve isn't like real life. :P. In Eve, at least, there is no government to coerce the market, but the players can act in such a role. Goonswarm's various successes and failures in exploiting markets are proof of such.

It depends on how you view the multitude transactions and what is being traded. Tobin taxes apply to financial transactions usually something like in the foreign exchange markets Not to going out and buying a loaf of bread. And what types of goods are these things, for example is a 125mm Gatling Autocannon an asset? You can't really use it to produce anything else. It does have positive economic value in the game though....

And I'm sorry, no, not a VAT. What value has been added? Nothing. I actually pay something more like a VAT when I do invention. I take a bunch of stuff and make it into even better stuff. I add value in doing that. All you do is is more like arbitrage in a commodities market.

And a financial transaction tax? When I show up and buy stuff for a ratting ishtar how is that different than say buying a car and getting some added features? Why is it not a consumption tax or a sales tax?

I'd say the broker's fee is not a tax. It is a fee you pay to access a market. It is like other prices. It is not really any different than the NPC sell orders for things like robotics before we had PI. Now, in similar fashion, broker's fees will be something players can set in citadels. However, to ensure that the new market has a chance to work, like with PI, the old system has to be changed. With PI the NPC market orders simply vanished. Here CCP is being far less harsh. You are not going to wake up one morning and find all your market orders gone and all your stuff sitting in your hangar. You will have plenty of time to unwind your positions and decide to move to a citadel to avoid at least some of the increase in broker's fees...or not.

And right there we have another substantial change to the game. Huge in fact. Robotics used to cost some ridiculously low price. Now they are probably 50-100x more expensive (I want to say the price was something like 1,200 for robotics). As an inventor I was definitely negatively impacted, not only did it effect my costs of building from T2 BPCs, but also in running the POS the corp I was part of had put up to do invention.

And no Goonswarm is not the government.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech

Hogyoku

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 6,771

#1006 - 2016-03-14 00:23:15 UTC

Marcus Tedric wrote:

Kuekuatsheu wrote:

.............................. And new players have to trade in citadels or loose 7.5% of their seller orders value to tax + broker's fees from the higher rate NPC stations.

Is that:

a) So bad?

b) Actually what newer players do? Or is more likely/practicable that new(er) players sell to buy orders?

No, that is not correct. If demand is perfectly elastic and supply perfectly inelastic then yeah, you'll pay the entire cost increase. Otherwise it will be shared between buyers and sellers.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

GreyGryphon

The Spartains

Likes received: 15

#1007 - 2016-03-14 00:23:21 UTC

Teckos Pech wrote:

GreyGryphon wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

Hmmm...whom should I believe?

The guy who is arguing in line with his vested interests....?

Or the guy arguing against his own vested interests....?

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

I could be wrong, but it seems you have suggested that "judging a book by its cover" is perfectly valid. The whole point of the idiom is to warn against judging something on face value which is very good advice in EVE or in life.

Missile Rebalance

Teckos Pech

Hogyoku

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 6,771

#1008 - 2016-03-14 03:09:42 UTC

GreyGryphon wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

GreyGryphon wrote:

Teckos Pech wrote:

Hmmm...whom should I believe?

The guy who is arguing in line with his vested interests....?

Or the guy arguing against his own vested interests....?

Hmmm...decisions, decisions.

Not at all, the fact that one person is arguing in favor of their interests and the other is not is information one can use in evaluating their statements. It is probabilistic reasoning using Bayes theorem or Bayesian Analysis.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tarojan

Tarojan Corporation

Likes received: 246

#1009 - 2016-03-14 03:20:15 UTC

baltec1 wrote:

All of this wild talk about getting mass booting out of a trade citadel isn't going to happen. Why would I as a PL trade hub operator wan't to remove the entire population of the north east of null sec from my customers?

Because by threatening to ban me personally from PLs "new Doxie" hub you can make me do things. EG.

stop selling my plex for more then 1 billion

don't list veldspar for more then x

no buy orders as I am not a licensed trader. If I want to be one apply on the website and pay my one plex a month fee for the privilege.

no entosising PL space. seriously

you ganked a pl alt. bye bye.

the list goes on and on.

Will gank for food

Teckos Pech

Hogyoku

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 6,771

#1010 - 2016-03-14 04:12:16 UTC

Tarojan wrote:

baltec1 wrote:

Because by threatening to ban me personally from PLs "new Doxie" hub you can make me do things. EG.

stop selling my plex for more then 1 billion

don't list veldspar for more then x

no buy orders as I am not a licensed trader. If I want to be one apply on the website and pay my one plex a month fee for the privilege.

no entosising PL space. seriously

you ganked a pl alt. bye bye.

the list goes on and on.

That is just stupid. I'm sorry, but it is. Why would you do any of this? Why would suddenly start operating at significant losses?

And have you heard of reputation effects? You start screwing over one person and everyone else will wonder when they are next, and GTFO while the possible and head to a competing citadel where the owner is not a blinkered moron.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Gevlon Goblin

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 543

#1011 - 2016-03-14 05:03:59 UTC

Lucas Kell wrote:

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

It can be me.

Prove it. I sincerely believe you don't have what it takes to run a leading citadel in highsec.

Here you go: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/2015/11/i-hate-to-ruin-parade-of-pandemic-horde.html
Yes, PL came to me, to join them. Bang, all I need to say is "yes", and I'm one of the proud citadel owners. PH came to me multiple times. Even NC. came to me (OK, that probably doesn't count as they are irrelevant).

You try to play that the 30T/month is a worthy reward for a huge task, but in reality, those who are the strongest at the moment will get it for free, without any effort. Those who are not in Goons/PL can only join or die. The owners won't have to do anything just set up the citadel, set the broker fee to 3% and collect the money. Sometimes a single guy needs to be on citadel gun duty to pop that 10 noobs who wardecced it for lols. If some mid-tier alliance wardec it (Legion of xXDeathXx, SOLAR, TEST) then they decide what's cheaper: give them a few % from the broker fee (every 5% package is more than all Tech moons in their heyday) or assemble 500 titans and evict them from wherever they live.

The point you try to avoid is that it doesn't matter how someone gets the Perimiter citadel. At the moment he got it, he won the game and he'll never-ever be able to lose a battle again. Even if you belive that getting the citadel right now is a test of skill, do you think that the game should end now with their victory and those who start playing EVE later should not even have a chance to have any effect on anything?

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Teckos Pech

Hogyoku

Goonswarm Federation

Likes received: 6,771

#1012 - 2016-03-14 05:12:58 UTC

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

It can be me.

Prove it. I sincerely believe you don't have what it takes to run a leading citadel in highsec.

That is some impressive delusion.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

TheSmokingHertog

Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium

Likes received: 476

#1013 - 2016-03-14 06:19:53 UTC | Edited by: TheSmokingHertog

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Update on the original thread:

Transaction fee: increased from 1.5% to 2.5% in all NPC stations and player structures.
Brokers' fee: increased to 5% in NPC stations.
Broker's fee formula with skills and standings: currently with max skills and NPC standings you can reduce the brokers' fee by 0.7-0.8%. We will modify skills and standings to decrease the tax by 1.5% and also change them from being percentage based to a flat reduction.

Really, I don't care about the tax rate, but as trader... I really want to REPLENISH my orders, with this NPC tax rates that capsuleers have to adapt too, it is more needed as ever!

As someone who is managing 1200 orders that would mean

About 600 extra orders needed to cap off markets against competition (since cancel / update orders becomes way to expensive).
2 new alts for managing those 600 orders*

Maybe you could implement some decent market order management tools in game**.

The named "replenishment option".***
An auto-renewal tax on orders****
Regional filtering in your orders tab
Type specific filtering in orders tab
Multi select canceling of orders (shift select in order list)
Multi select in buying of sell orders (shift select in market list)

* EVE gets bigger numbers in corps and alliances, but we are still capped at 305 orders max per alt, even for corp, link with proposed changes to skills)
** Not talking about contracts yet.
*** Maybe add a skill to get this done, with a Station, System, 20 jumps, 40 jumps, Region upgrade like other trade skills.
**** In order management it would be great to enable auto-refreshing of orders. to update 1200 orders, each 3 months is a big workload already, let alone 1800 orders. So, you would pay taxes and fees again, to the owning corp, when auto-renewing your orders in that station.

Quote:

Replenish

to make full or complete again, as by supplying what is lacking, used up

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

TheSmokingHertog

Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium

Likes received: 476

#1014 - 2016-03-14 06:42:30 UTC | Edited by: TheSmokingHertog

Kuekuatsheu wrote:

[quote=RainReaper]...People really need to calm down in this thread...

First was do with the issue of being locked out of citadels where you had assets. Now I don't trawl through Reddit, so I didn't know CCP had commented on this and since free asset recovery for this has been commented on by CCP, I'm sure even though it hasn't been officially sanctified, I'm sure that it will happen, because CCP are very customer focused and have our interests at heart.

Secondly is the shear level of taxation and broker's fees at NPC stations. Some people, who I refer to as morons for the sake of finding an apt descriptive term, have commented that 7.5% isn't that much.

Most people starting out as traders at entry level (day 1), mostly trade in cheap stuff where they buy things at 95% of the market value via buy order and sell them for 100%. Doesn't take a genius to figure out that 7.5% is more than 5%. They will make a loss doing this in an NPC station post Citadel expansion. At the moment the broker's fee + tax is 3.5%, so trading is profitable without skills at NPC stations for now.

Now the morons, have commented that traders can somehow miraculously increase the sell price of any item without an issue.

The most common thing new traders trade in is Veldspar. Now if the sell value of Veldspar goes up, so will Tritanium, which is kind of in everything in EVE. Therefor the price of everything will increase... which is kind of unlikely. Alternatively the traders can buy Veldspar cheaper, meaning less ISK for the miners... also very unlikely.

More likely is that the middle man will be squeezed out making entry level trading unviable in NPC stations.
The solution to this is to farm standings with both the faction and corporation that own the NPC station to an modified standing of 10. Aswell as leveling both Accounting and Broker Relations to V.
This will reduce that figure from 7.5% to 4%.

However you can set the broker's fee in a citadel to 3%, same as the minimum you can get with Broker Relations V and standings of 10. Therefor the only skill you'd need is Accounting V. Not Broker Relations, Social or Connections Skills.
That's a nice 2 months of skill training you don't need to bother with and not to mention not having to farm standings. Seriously no one will do this if they don't have to! So, every new trader will go to a citadel, and once they start making ISK, they aren't going to stop, are they?

Thirdly; due to the above most new traders will start out in citadels, because it's easier. They can buy in Jita 4-4, haul and sell in a citadel for 1% tax + 3% brokers fee and make profit. There is, last I heard no restrictions where you can and can't anchor a citadel, you can't anchor a POS in Jita, but you could put a large citadel 11,000km from Jita 4-4, for warping convenience.

Let's say you do this, new traders start moving stuff from Jita 4-4 to this new large citadel, owned of-course by a null-sec alliance cause no-one else has the trillions of ISK it takes to build a large citadel.

Then comes the monopoly, let's say it's EVE's perennial bad-boys, Goonswarm Federation build this citadel.
Then they decide to destroy any other citadel's anchored in Jita (they have the manpower to do it).
Imagine if they had the only citadel in Jita, and due to my earlier reasoning, all trade in Jita (currently 70% of all trade in New-Eden) suddenly start going through a Goonswarm Federation citadel, who in turn, get a shiny 3% share of all the profits through Broker's Fees.

That is 2.1% of all ISK in EVE online, which I imagine is a very big number.

So Goonswarm Federation are making lots of ISK, because of this monopoly. The only thing they'd need to do to maintain it is War-Declare the other Null-Sec alliances constantly. Since Null-Sec alliances are the only ones that could afford a citadel, allowing them to attack citadels without Concord intervention (citadels have very long on-lining time, during which they have no shields or armor and are very easy to kill).

Plus the "effort" plus defending their own (large citadels have access to the AoE ECM's and AoE Neuts which are being developed for Super-Carriers in Citadel. With a fleet of 50 defending ships in-front of that citadel, it would be impossible to destroy with Sub-Capital vessels.

Net result:

*snap*

First Asset recovery on orders has not been decently commented at. In WHs market orders would become part of the loot even I assume.

Secondly Indeed, market entree will be harsh, most traders start out in NPC corps, not in Citadel owning corps, then I dont even count the fact that you cant set courier contracts to citadels... or have crest endpoint data on Citadel trades.

Thirdly; New people wont start out in Citadels, due to the fact you need to be in a corp that has an X or XL citadel.

Assuming due to wardecs, free-port citadels wont survive long, so you need to bleu up to enjoy a low tax service.

Citadels will be restricted in Shattered and Starter systems.

(mmm, forum did eat a part of my reply...)

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

TheSmokingHertog

Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium

Likes received: 476

#1015 - 2016-03-14 07:00:38 UTC

Rob Kaichin wrote:

Man, and the discussion was going so well earlier.

First off, the volume of ISK being traded can be found in the February Economic Newsletter/Devblog published by CCP Quant. The Forge has ~700 Trillion, which is basically Jita.

Secondly, (and I thought we'd agreed on this) Lucas, you agree that 0% and 0.9% are different, right? And that the attraction of being able to set taxes lower than current NPC taxes will be a pull factor for usage, right?

If so, please stop saying that without NPC tax rises, it'll be impossible to get people to use Citadels. Thank you :).

Thirdly, I thought we'd talked about the impact of NPC tax rises being this:

Initially decreased trading volume due to low-no profit margins
Increased barrier to entry for new traders, as standings and skill become required
Exit of Market Makers (who in Eve are market traders) due to decreased trading volume (which means decreased income)
Stratification and decreased liquidity due to exit of station traders
3 month (at least) drag on markets as people who list all items before changes have a competitive advantage over other in NPC stations

I think that is most of the impacts covered.

Finally, (and this is more philosophical),

Quote:

So basically "what if the weak give up and the strong thrive"? Well that's just the way of things

In real life, there's an incentive not to kill yourself: you keep on experiencing. In Eve, if you make things unrewarding/punishing, people can leave without cost.

If the weak give up, the strong can't play Eve. :P

Very nicely said. I did not hear CCP tell their vision on the stuff listed here. I am considering withdrawing from the market. That withdraws several billions in turnover out of markets each month (as example).

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Lucas Kell

Solitude Trading

S.N.O.T.

Likes received: 8,040

#1016 - 2016-03-14 07:12:49 UTC | Edited by: Lucas Kell

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Lucas Kell wrote:

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

It can be me.

Prove it. I sincerely believe you don't have what it takes to run a leading citadel in highsec.

First off, that's not proof, that'sa blogpost. Secondly, joining PL while PL own a citadel isn't you owning a citadel, it's you being a line member while someone else earns the isk. Also that appears to be a quite obvious joke convo, and certainly not a sign that PL leadership would want you in their ranks. At most they might want to see if they can milk your wallet like TEST did. Your problem with this change is that you can't be the one earning the isk.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

You try to play that the 30T/month is a worthy reward for a huge task, but in reality, those who are the strongest at the moment will get it for free, without any effort.

Except of course it won;t be free and certainly won't be without effort. How do you expect people to take you seriously if you're so obviously lying?

Gevlon Goblin wrote:

The point you try to avoid is that it doesn't matter how someone gets the Perimiter citadel. At the moment he got it, he won the game and he'll never-ever be able to lose a battle again.

Prove it. I don't believe that people would simply cease attacking them and I certainly don't believe that simply having access to isk would make them invulnerable to attack. Again, I think you are massively exaggerating both the ease of getting a citadel and the results of owning one. All because of jealousy.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Drago Shouna

Doomheim

Likes received: 751

#1017 - 2016-03-14 08:57:54 UTC

Malcanis wrote:

Memphis Baas wrote:

For everyone complaining of higher NPC taxes (here and in the reddit thread): CCP needs to have more ISK sinks, which they are achieving through the higher taxes and through the ISK loss rather than mineral loss for refining.

For CCP: if you really want to introduce a strong ISK sink, you have to introduce something that the people with trillions of ISK want to buy. We really wanted to buy the skill injectors; you saw how much plex trade that caused. Find something that's as desirable. Maybe some new skins, I don't know.

EDIT: Also, everyone predicting that people will ignore citadel markets and stay in Jita, that's true, until they remove Jita. I believe the end goal is to have NO NPC stations at all. So the whole "recovering your assets is free" thing is eventually not going to be quite true. It should be interesting to see; no game has ever modeled an economic collapse before, and EVE's economy is quite an advanced simulator, pretty much the perfect testing platform.

If people ignore citadels markets then that will be evidence that the npc trading taxes have been set too low...

"cough"

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

baltec1

Bat Country

Pandemic Horde

Likes received: 19,001

#1018 - 2016-03-14 09:04:24 UTC

Tarojan wrote:

baltec1 wrote:

Because by threatening to ban me personally from PLs "new Doxie" hub you can make me do things. EG.

stop selling my plex for more then 1 billion

don't list veldspar for more then x

no buy orders as I am not a licensed trader. If I want to be one apply on the website and pay my one plex a month fee for the privilege.

no entosising PL space. seriously

you ganked a pl alt. bye bye.

the list goes on and on.

And nobody would use our station if we did that.

Gevlon Goblin

Science and Trade Institute

Caldari State

Likes received: 543

#1019 - 2016-03-14 09:14:35 UTC

Lucas Kell wrote:

Except of course it won;t be free and certainly won't be without effort. How do you expect people to take you seriously if you're so obviously lying?

I'm not. The "effort" is build one citadel. Maybe once drop 1000 F1 pushers on someone who wardecs it to make a point. From there, it will be literally free as no one would dare to mess with it again with a serious fleet. Citadel guns handle small gangs. Please teach me, how could anyone remove the Goon/PL citadel.

Lucas Kell wrote:

I don't believe that people would simply cease attacking them and I certainly don't believe that simply having access to isk would make them invulnerable to attack. Again, I think you are massively exaggerating both the ease of getting a citadel and the results of owning one. All because of jealousy.

How many people tried to take Tech moons from OTEC or renter Sov from Botlord? Please link a single battle!

And both Tech moons and renters were pocket change compared to the Perimiter citadel. Access to ISK in itself doesn't guarantee victory. Access to 30T/month does. They can buy out every plex being sold or build 300 new titans a month or reimburse every lost ship in New Eden or pay the ratting ticks of every ratter without them ratting. If a wallet warrior tried to match that, he had to chip in $440K a month. We aren't talking about "lot of" money. We are talking about 1/4 of the total New Eden GDP. That's game over.

Finally: the very point is that no one will control the citadel, "everyone" in a cartel will. PL, NC. Imperium, maybe some Russians and lowseccers. Why fight when you can share?

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Rob Kaichin

Aliastra

Gallente Federation

Likes received: 176

#1020 - 2016-03-14 10:05:26 UTC

Anhenka wrote:

On an alliance level... We live 35 jumps from Jita in Fountain, and the alliance is so poor we don't have any SRP for anything.
Putting up a trade citadel and defending it? Not going to happen.

Rob Kaichin wrote:

Also, Outposts more important than Supercaps or FW or Wormholes or .... etc? I think you may be just a little wrong there.

Seriously mate, what's your alliance doing? Are all the moons taken by FCore or something?

As for outposts, you know that there were stations in NS before the outpost introductions, right?

But all that's an aside, I don't really see a trade alliance happening because it's not the social direction Eve really guides people to.

First pagePrevious page4950515253Next pageLast page