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It's a shame that I was honestly convinced by the arguments of others, but you have such little faith in your side that you believe I'm lying. It underscores the total lack of confidence you have in what you say.


If the players are taking no risks, they get no rewards. That's Pedro's position which I'm restating.

The players are taking no risks, which Anhenka agrees with. Which you agree with too.

The person taking the risk is the person who owns the citadel. They're the one who deserves the reward, right?

So the system should reward the Citadel owner whilst not rewarding the Citadel users. After all, the users take no risk in living in the Citadel: their assets are safe, their ships are safe. There's no charge for living in the Citadel. To keep it running, only the owner pays.

What am I missing here from your (general) arguments?

If it's all about RISK and REWARD, we can't shy away from that.

1: I can get gas cheaper at a gas station across town for 4 cents cheaper, while this is an incentive, it an an insufficient incentive to ever change my habit of filling up at the station next to my house. Similarly, I would not move to a citadel to save a max of .2% broker fee's, nor would many others. Saying "fact" after a statement does not make reality bend to your will.

As to your not talking current min or max broker fee's, Both of these statements are entirely incorrect by the way, as a side note from the "I didn't talk about broker fee's" bit.

As for you not talking about AOE citadel weapons,

As to 4: Entirely incorrect. I have honestly no idea where you pulled that 1.2 Trillion number from, original plan for an XL Citadel was a BPO of 700 bil with a construction cost of 70 Bil, per http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/building-your-citadel-one-block-at-a-time

They then doubled the construction cost to 135-140 Bil, while keeping the 700 bil isk BPO cost. Per https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6368506#post6368506

As to 5, Yes there is a minimum amount of time to reinforce one, which is irrelevant to what we were talking about, which is that the high HP buffer makes it a serious pain in the ass to grind, even with no defensive modules.

Also on a side note, they never edit the actual dev blog posts, they just post changes in the associated thread. Here's a Wayback copy of the original safety blog from the day it was posted. Full statement about asset security from the moment they posted the blog.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150814015922/http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/i-feel-safe-in-citadel-city/

1. WTF?

2. New (post-citadel) minimum is what I stated and you managed to misquote me, which is impressive. Not the old (live) one.

Your original remark stated I quoted the live version. I will happily admit until you typed it, I had no idea what the live minimum brokers fee is, because I don't have maxed standings.

3. E-War, not Weapons... I mean really, how long have you played this game. Weapons do damage... concept!

4. CSM are debating the costs are to low for citadels atm, set to increase... a lot more.

5. At-least you admitted you were wrong.

6. New minimum is 3%, old minimum is what did you say 0.1875%... the whole point of the thread is that is a big increase. Nothing you've said changes that, you even admitted it yourself, so what are you arguing about?!

Edited: Because of the length, man it's a forum post not a doctoral thesis.
Insert remark about the length of my original post after this, because you read never read the end remarks, to which I can only say "Touché".

It remains to be seen doesn't it with regards to rewards and there are risks with a citadel you do not face with an NPC station.

**** off the owner for some reason, he may cut off your access in which case your stuff is tied up for 5 days. How much revenue would be lost in that situation for you? Not to mention the time it would take to move to a new citadel, if there is one, or go back to an NPC station?

Similarly if on the off chance it is destroyed. **** happens. Goons dropped a bunch of sov once because 1 guy went on vacation and forgot to put enough ISK in the relevant wallet.

So yeah, I see your turning on a dime as rather suspicious. You have a very clear incentive to push against these changes....and you seem determined to use any argument that is convenient.

1. He is talking about opportunity cost. For me it is Costco gas. It is 10 cents cheaper at Costco than the closest gas station. I never go to Costco, the lines are so long that any savings is trivial relative to the time I have "lost" sitting in my car looking at the ass end of the car in front of me.

The trials of living in America, here in the UK, with 80% fuel duty and 20% tax on-top of it, people go very long distances for cheap fuel. Then again the queues are never long cause very few people can afford to buy more fuel than is entirely necessary in this country.

I suppose I just don't understand the economic reason for not maximizing potential gains.
I'm narrow minded in that regard.

I am maximizing potential gains, it is just that not everything is money, but also how you spend your time. Would I rather spend $1.2 more on a full tank of gas and have an extra 30 minutes to do something far more entertaining that being in a queue waiting? For me the answer is yes.

If it were an issue of driving a few extra miles with no queue, I might drive the few miles.

For similar reasons I don't expect a mass exodus from Jita 4-4 to Perimeter. The opportunity cost of doing so will be quite high. I imagine it will happen slower and people will do the following, as a position in Jita 4-4 is unwound they'll move to a citadel, if there is one, and set up a new position there.

And there is alot of inertia behind Jita 4-4 as well. People go there in large part because if they have a large shopping list they can fill it entirely at Jita 4-4 even if it costs a bit more. That is why you see skill books on sale in Jita even though people could buy them cheaper.

So, I am not even convinced that people will be setting up a trade citadel near Jita. It might happen, but I'm not entirely convinced.

3.5% is worse than 3%, you are right, I do disapprove. The information I got about Citadel costs was earlier in this thread, and I don't care about it cause I have no plans to build one, however I do disapprove of your remarks about their costs.

Market integration isn't available for Medium Citadels, so your original remark about there cost being 3-7 billion is no more accurate than mine. I was out by a factor of 9x over, yours was 11x under, including the 70 billion ISK blueprint you need to acquire first. My issue is you using figures that suit you, same issue you have with me.

I will happily admit to being ill-informed, but you know and yet you still lie about it:-

Every comment you make about the potential gains of citadels uses the current (live) 0.1875% minimum broker fee to justify player gains, you're well aware that 3.5% minimum (w/e) is what it will change to when Citadel goes live, so please use that figure in your equations of citadel economic viability.

The CSM agree that the tax is to high though, that's a good thing.

CSM minutes come in the PDF format, so unfortunately don't link well. Go read them yourself, its only 79 pages.
CSM X Summit II Minutes

.

Medium Structure hulls will cost around 350-700m ISK in materials to build.
Large Structure hulls will cost around 3-7b ISK in materials to build.
X-Large Structure hulls will cost around 30-70b+ ISK in materials to build. (Now adjusted to Roughly 125 Bil)

And there is a step between medium and XL you know, it's Large, and they are able to use a market module.

They are roughly 7 bil. The blueprint is 70, but factoring that into the price of every single Citadel is ridiculous. We don't factor a Titan BPO into the cost of a titan, we factor in the cost of a titan BPC.

At 75 Bil, a titan BPO is remarkably close to the 70 Bil Large Citadel BPO, so we can make an eyeball valuation on the cost.

A 0ME/0PE titan BPC looks like it run around 330 mil. Of course, that's not taking into account relatively stagnant demand for titan BPC's, so let's go ahead and triple that to 1 Bil to account for high initial demand across the first six months or so for Fortizar BPC's.

That raises the price to 8 Bil. Not 77 Bil. Factoring in a BPO for the cost of each and every citadel is ridiculous.


Very little of the t2 production actually happens in null. Since each region is limited to specific racial types and tendencies to certain higher moon types, it's nearly impossible to do advanced t2 production in null.

Most alliances ship the moongoo directly to market either pure or with a stage 1 reaction. But the absence of a supply of t2 minerals in proportions to the requirement of production means you either ship moongoo to market and sell it, or import loads of other peoples stuff from highsec to your nullsec, process it all and ship it back to Jita for sale. And that's very uncommon, mostly limited to the areas within JF range of Jita, since undocking in a freighter with a few 10's of billions worth of stage 2 refined moongoo in the cargo tends to turn out poorly.

Typically moongoo is sold in jita, repurchased by t2 producers who run industrial scale reaction farms, taking a relatively small profit across a ton of towers to result in some serious money.

I for one would love a way to source a broad selection of moongoo more locally in lowsec/nullsec, even if it came partially at the expense of static moons.

CCP, WTB Comet mining.

Getting kind of off topic though.