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Yachts, yachts, yachts.

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#141 - 2016-03-13 11:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Trinkets friend wrote:
OK, here's my TL;DR of this thread:
Epicurius whateveraxia: 75% of thread.
Everyone else: STFU already, you've made your point, get out of basement.

The issue i have is exactly the TDSIN problem. Personally, i use the T3's. We need something in the game to let small fry roll away from aspie neckbeards with 10:1 odds. it happens, even to the best of us. As Chester says, rolling off is a valuable and vital piece of gameplay opportunity for wormholes and must stay. That means rolling T3's.

Epicurius' idea of rolling the yachts out if you can trap them out works if they are bad, and don't have alts to watch the hole. If they see you rollin' or massin', they won't commit a yacht to the effort. So, yeah, a behavioural fix to a clear balance problem? That's not addressing the problem, so you can shut up about this already. Ok, great, you trapped one idiot. It's like when Garmon was triple vindi-webbing JF's on undock: some doubtless got away, doesn't mean its not broken.

As several smart people have said, if you keep the nullification, you will just end up with people using ISBoxer tactics to achieve the same goal. 24 Ishtar fleets could be replaced by 24 yachts. No biggie.

As the guy said, above, its a ship with nullification. To get nullification in ANY other ship in the game, you have to train evasive maneuvering 5 and/or a bunch of other skills to 5. Plus it's a damn taxi. If there's a need for a nullified taxi for nullsec, people will just have to find an alternative. Like Ceptors, which already exist, surprise surprise.

So, bearing in mind I prefer to keep fagroller T3s, the two changes are:
Remove rig slots from Yachts. Problem solved. What else do you use the rigs for aside from making them instawarp?
Remove its nullification. Nullbears just go back to using Ceptors.

The second-order issue is its agility. It's a cruiser which can basically cloak and instawarp.

Or, better yet, up the ship mass to 250Kt so if you Higgs it you can't fit through any wormholes.



Thanks, It is good to get a bit of clarity injected, I don't have to fully agree, to appreciate the value of clear discussion.

The rollout trick, does not require them to be bad, you simply crossjump a previously, cloaked higgs rigged 100mn proteus, or two for extra "make sure ness " Big smileas they make their final pass.
But it requires commitment, as your proteus is closed in their hole, and being able to count, and scan, don't forget the probes, that the yacht doesn't have (for anyone who got confused following the story so far.)
They never know you are there until you crossjump. Yeah, I know "effort" , rules it out for many. Nothing on the killboard means it is not a real kill for some too,
bummer.

Your idea, of increasing the mass, unfortunately, would mean that even without the higgs fitted it would close holes twice as fast.
But It does point to the problem being as much with the hole mass mechanism as anything else.

Someone needs to come up with a smart fix, that applies to the mass rolling technique, or we either, are not fixing the problem, or using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
We all know extreme fixes would work, a blind deaf braindead monkey, could come up with that in two seconds, we need something that requires a bit of subtlety, beyond banging two rocks together and keeping one's "finger" out of the way

We know CCP are looking at hole masses due to capitals, could a mass mechanic, be added, to prevent the Tdsin issue?

Are there NO smart people here, able to think of a good idea, without just repeating the same tired arguments?
Someone must have something new to say?

I Wonder how many posts before someone looks here, and says, "Uug I like rock, please give, interdiction rock good! " :facepalm:

Edit :double facepalm: beyond belief!
Please God let it be an ironic post.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Winthorp
#142 - 2016-03-13 11:08:16 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Are there NO smart people here, able to think of a good idea, without just repeating the same tired arguments?
Someone must have something new to say?


The problem is you think these things posted by Corbexx are not what we have been nagging him and CCP for at length now.

I am glad you have been caught up now though.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#143 - 2016-03-13 11:21:23 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Are there NO smart people here, able to think of a good idea, without just repeating the same tired arguments?
Someone must have something new to say?


The problem is you think these things posted by Corbexx are not what we have been nagging him and CCP for at length now.

I am glad you have been caught up now though.


It is hard to establish the true issue, when one has to work through all the "uuh, ship Broken .... kill!, uuh need bigger rock!" comments before one can get anywhere.
There are intelligent reasoned discussions in here somewhere, but bloody hard to dig through the **** to get to them.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
FeistyOne
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#144 - 2016-03-13 11:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: FeistyOne
Trinkets friend wrote:

Remove rig slots from Yachts. Problem solved. What else do you use the rigs for aside from making them instawarp?


This please.
Winthorp
#145 - 2016-03-13 11:31:54 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Are there NO smart people here, able to think of a good idea, without just repeating the same tired arguments?
Someone must have something new to say?


The problem is you think these things posted by Corbexx are not what we have been nagging him and CCP for at length now.

I am glad you have been caught up now though.


Pay attention, and then you may have seen it from the first few comments.
It is hard to establish the true issue, when one has to work through all the "uuh, ship Broken .... kill!, uuh need bigger rock!" comments before one can get anywhere.
There are intelligent reasoned discussions in here somewhere, but bloody hard to dig through the **** to get to them.


I am not sure you will ever get it m8.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#146 - 2016-03-13 11:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Are there NO smart people here, able to think of a good idea, without just repeating the same tired arguments?
Someone must have something new to say?


The problem is you think these things posted by Corbexx are not what we have been nagging him and CCP for at length now.

I am glad you have been caught up now though.


Pay attention, and then you may have seen it from the first few comments.
It is hard to establish the true issue, when one has to work through all the "uuh, ship Broken .... kill!, uuh need bigger rock!" comments before one can get anywhere.
There are intelligent reasoned discussions in here somewhere, but bloody hard to dig through the **** to get to them.


I am not sure you will ever get it m8.


Believe me my estimation of the human race has gone down to levels, I had not considered possible, IKnow ™,I know, what did I expect from the EvE O forums, just as you think you have begun to get there, you look behind you, and find them "licking the rocks"™ again.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#147 - 2016-03-13 13:13:11 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

But it requires commitment, as your proteus is closed in their hole, and being able to count, and scan, don't forget the probes, that the yacht doesn't have (for anyone who got confused following the story so far.)


Was hoping someone would have corrected you by now but it's quite easy to get probes on a yacht.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#148 - 2016-03-13 14:34:37 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Post deleted.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Sten Taxi
No trouble in the midst
B.E.A.R.S.
#149 - 2016-03-13 15:17:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sten Taxi
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Yes, please bear in mind, this was initially discussed (and I didn't want to have to repeat the whole thing)in the middle of a section where people were saying a rolling yacht was being flown by two day old characters, despite the fact this was absolutely impossible, one could not fit it to gain sufficient powergrid, or fit the neccessary fittings. Let alone the agility and navigation skills required It IS possible with maximum skills, and the exact fitting, at some sacrifices.

Requires Power Grid Management 5. With day 0 nav skills it aligns in less than 5 seconds, train Evasive Maneuvering and Spaceship Command to 3 and its below 4. Catchable but not easy.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:

The sacrifices, do make it suboptimal, and much easier to catch, I have not seem the capable fit on any killboards, But not every ship loss ends up there, If it works, they do not die.

Decent nav skills align time is ~3.5 seconds, that is practically impossible to catch unless the yacht is unable to cloak. We have caught one by rolling the hole when it was warping back, we took it as a prize when the pilot ejected.

epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Here is the fit, feel free to use it. It does require pretty much max skills to have any chance of survival, and to be able to fit everything

Lol
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2016-03-13 22:23:42 UTC
Turn back time, lose the tournament that brought us these yachts. problem solved.

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#151 - 2016-03-14 03:30:20 UTC
Personally I'd just nuke their PG until you can't fit a 100mn on it. Any kind of temporary disabling of nullification or cloaking results in people destroying the rig to escape and permanently removing either means removing what makes them an interesting ship at all.
Fox Nounours
EyEs.FR
#152 - 2016-03-14 19:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Fox Nounours
I'm fine with the idea of Luxury Yacht for collapse.

If you want to do something against someone who is collapsing with a Yacht you can try different things :
- Trap him in the wormhole
- Scatter drones around the wormhole and pray Bob to make him appear cross of a drone and catch him with an instalock

It s not necessary to make it easy killing a collapser. It has to be doable ... and right now it is.
Flaille
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#153 - 2016-03-15 12:46:58 UTC
corbexx wrote:
We're still looking for feedback on these in regard to rolling wormholes.

Some ideas that have been presented.

Make it so higgs riggs can't be fit on them.
Make higgs riggs remove nulification.
Make higgs remove Cov ops cloak.
Make it so yachts can't fit BS prop mods.

More ideas are always welcome as well as discussion on them in general.


I took the time to look at the data from ZKillboard on the Victorieux Luxury Yacht (VLY) for the last year, here is what it shows. I did this manual count this morning.

http://imgur.com/ZXuDmWP

- A google search indicates that public advice about the use the VLY as a rolling ship began nine months ago (May 2015). As we all know, they started to be used for this purpose almost from the moment they became available in game.

- The % ratio of VLY killed in w-space compared to k-space has steadily risen over the last year.

- The % ratio of VLY Killed in w-space compared to k-space presents a sharp increase trend starting in september 2015.

- On average 172 VLY have been killed monthly over the last year. Looking at full months of data, for April 2015 to September 2015 the average was 189 and from October 2015 to February 2016 the average was 190. The number of total kills appears to have grown slightly over the last five months, but growth of % ratio of VLK killed in w-space over the same period is far grater.

- The data shows that clusters of kills that occur roughly at the same time in the same wh have emerged over the last few months. People seem to have found counters and are beginning to use them. Based on what the data shows, one would expect this trend to continue.

In light of this information, I would ask the following two questions:

- When you say "we're still looking for feedback". Who is the "we"? The CSM or CCP? who see's this as an issue? Bigger groups, smaller groups? Who gains from modifying this technique? We all have our perceptions and opinions on this (even within our corp) but I would like to know the motivations for working on this.

- What is the problem that you are trying to fix? The "problem", if there is one, appears to be in the process of fixing itself. Do you have any hard data to compare these results to other rolling ships / techniques.

In hope that you have the time to answer.
Ruby Burke
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#154 - 2016-03-16 14:48:53 UTC
People have not found counters, yachts are just everywhere lately. More people yachting means more people making mistakes with yachts and exploding.
Bex
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#155 - 2016-03-18 03:40:32 UTC
The only way you die rolling holes in a yacht is from a disconnect or a monumental f*ck up. It's clearly not at all as intended and whilst that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is for what is supposed to be a novelty item. Instead it's become a go-to item for a specific role.

Nerf the PG and be done with it. It's not like you need the PG to put an armour plate on it.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#156 - 2016-03-20 02:04:01 UTC
To all the yachting enthusiasts <3

Also, Epicirus, I think your problem is that you don't understand the problem at all, and are therefore proposing a bunch of frankly stupid non-fixes composed of behavioural rubrics that you believe negate the problem, but do not in fact do so.

No, rolling someone out of not a solution, if there's a risk of your own self being rolled out. That's like taking a horsewhip to punish someone and then smacking yourself in the face. Which is kind of equivalent to skimming over your 30 paragraph replies.

If you can't make a point about Yachts inside two paragraphs, in one post, you are just trying to win the interwebs special olympics.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#157 - 2016-03-21 03:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ransu Asanari
Would like to see Yachts kept to give smaller groups a way to roll their holes in the face of overwhelming odds they can't possibly fight. If groups consistently refuse to fight anyone, I'd hope they'll get evicted.

I would hope these groups would put up some kind of a fun fight, or convo and agree to a downship for a brawl. But we know there are going to be groups that will just expect you to suicide into them, or stick around and gank you repeatedly. Their only option at that point is to safe up or log off until the hole rolls naturally. I'd rather have more people online in W-Space doing things, as it gives more opportunities for content.

I think rolling T3 Cruisers is too high a bar to set for newer players to be able to roll without getting their ships killed before they can finish one full pass. That said, Yachts may be a bit too easy at the moment. If it took more passes, invaders would have more time to set up a counter (capitals on the hole for decloak, instalock remote-sebos, smartbombs, rolling THEM out, etc). There ARE counters but you need time to reship and set them up.

My vote would be for removing the ability to fit a Higgs anchor from the ship, so it would take more passes to roll, but still be possible with minimal risk. If we could change the Yacht mass so it's slightly easier to calculate how many passes on an even number with a 100MN AB running, that would be an acceptable tradeoff as well.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#158 - 2016-03-21 13:30:35 UTC
Ransu Asanari wrote:
Would like to see Yachts kept to give smaller groups a way to roll their holes in the face of overwhelming odds they can't possibly fight.
This. I can't help but feel like the Yacht hate is from bigger groups who think "If we take away Yachts, they'll roll with stuff that isn't as safe and we kill that!" Y'know, kinda like the mass/distance changes when the bigger groups thought "If rolling capitals end up further from their holes, we can kill more capitals!" Except it just meant people didn't roll with capitals.

If smaller groups can't roll in the face of Overload This or Lazerhawks, they just POS up and log, and that's not fun for anybody.
Egsise
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#159 - 2016-03-22 13:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Egsise
It takes 10 Thrashers to make Yacht pop before it warps off.
10-1 chance of that server tick is on Thrashers side.

Thrasher op, nerf it.
Iam Cloaked
Warcrows
THE OLD SCHOOL
#160 - 2016-03-23 11:14:02 UTC
Look, it's the Goons ruining W-space mechanics with their bad ideas, as if they didn't do enough damage in K-space. I reckon the next thing they'll ask is to replace all the W-space sites with Havens so they can AFK rat.