These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Worries about the skill injectors, and the future of the game.

First post
Author
Daerrol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#461 - 2016-03-09 18:44:27 UTC
Please guys skill injectors are just a less efficient character bazaar. The fear that newbros will have 30 titan accounts by buying billions of PLEX is irrelevant. They could do that already by buying 30 characters that COME with Titans (Not to mention buying a titan in game requires a LOT of work to not get scammed, where as buying a character with a titan is CCP garunteed so it's easier + cheaper)

I think all the normies who play EVE 'for fun' are comming out and faffing about when the vets already knew how to buy and sell SP and been doing it for years. Fact that character prises rose by a whole lot shows how ignorant some people were.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#462 - 2016-03-09 19:08:13 UTC
Terminal Insanity wrote:



When a rich brat can but a shitton of plex and then inject several characters on several accounts to titans, and then plex some titans for them all.... That is ******* pay2win.


A rich brat could burn PLEX on the market for ISK, buy pre-trained titan pilots and titans with said ISK and achieve the exact same result before except probably cheaper since no SP were sunk in the diminushing return system of SP injector use.

Unless you were also against the bazaar, you have no point to stand on against SP injectors.
Arla Sarain
#463 - 2016-03-09 19:16:13 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:



When a rich brat can but a shitton of plex and then inject several characters on several accounts to titans, and then plex some titans for them all.... That is ******* pay2win.


A rich brat could burn PLEX on the market for ISK, buy pre-trained titan pilots and titans with said ISK and achieve the exact same result before except probably cheaper since no SP were sunk in the diminushing return system of SP injector use.

Unless you were also against the bazaar, you have no point to stand on against SP injectors.

People just see the face value of things without thinking too hard.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#464 - 2016-03-10 00:35:14 UTC
I actually agree with many of your points, especially some of the ones about shiny things as opposed to fixing issues.
The only thing i can say to you is to remind you of something that's been said time and time again, "there is no substitute for "time" in EvE".

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#465 - 2016-03-10 00:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Terminal Insanity wrote:
When a rich brat can but a shitton of plex and then inject several characters on several accounts to titans, and then plex some titans for them all.... That is ******* pay2win.



A max skilled toon in a shiny/blingy ship is nothing but a loot pinata if the pilot flying that toon doesn't know and have the experience to do so effectively.
and most folks aren't going to plunk down around $25,000.00 US to buy enough injectors to max out anyway.

that's not pay 2 win anyway, that's just pay to get steamrolled...

just saying...
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#466 - 2016-03-11 06:04:48 UTC
Deck Cadelanne wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Two years 36M SP total and I am decent enough in Minmatar and Gallente sub-capitals.
More than half of my skill points are in mining and industrial skills.

If you read up on it, pick a ship and a fit, you can be out there PVPing in an incredibly short time.


^ this is true. So true. Perhaps the 400-pound gorilla in the room is the mass of unrealistic expectations so many have re: how the game works and the disappointment they feel when they can't have everything "their way." You don't have to spend years watching your skill queue and mining before you can PVP. We prove that every month or two with the CAS Combat Day. Other public fleets do the same.
+1
Deck Cadelanne wrote:

I am seeing a lot of veteran players mad enough to quit over this and I empathize. I understand the perception that CCP has "sold out" by allowing newer players to potentially fast-track to the "level" these veterans have achieved in terms of what they can fly and do..
Not only veterans.

Sure, new player may need a leg up to start being effective in their first three months.
Fine. Speed up their SP rate until they hit 5M SP.

Selling a by-pass with skill injectors is just bloody stupid.
  • Not because newbies will fast track but because veterans will fast track multiple accounts.
Try and visualise the potential damage someone who already has 24 accounts and trillions of ISK can do by fleshing out their alts to have perfect skills for given purposes.
Now compound that by having an alliance of players like that with alts planted into other alliances.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Reiisha
#467 - 2016-03-11 16:06:54 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
Please guys skill injectors are just a less efficient character bazaar. The fear that newbros will have 30 titan accounts by buying billions of PLEX is irrelevant. They could do that already by buying 30 characters that COME with Titans (Not to mention buying a titan in game requires a LOT of work to not get scammed, where as buying a character with a titan is CCP garunteed so it's easier + cheaper)

I think all the normies who play EVE 'for fun' are comming out and faffing about when the vets already knew how to buy and sell SP and been doing it for years. Fact that character prises rose by a whole lot shows how ignorant some people were.


It's not about that fear, but the eroding of a core game mechanic. The bazaar doesn't sidestep this at all, after all, you're still buying a premade character, with a set amount of sp in very specific skills, with a specific name and corp history. You're not buying 'just skills' off the bazaar, not to mention that you need another character slot and can't train the new character at the same time as your current one unless you buy a new account.

Also, how many titan-capable characters have you seen on the bazaar? Which also leads to another thing that differentiates the bazaar: How do you expect to get a titan without an alliance which builds it for you, and trusts you to fly it? No one is going to give it to a character which is known to be sold, or has a sketchy history to begin with.

The bazaar is not even close to how the skill injectors work.



Adding to that, i don't feel like all players need to be identical, stat-wise, to one another. Why shouldn't a vet have 'earned' the right to have a few more skillpoints built up over the years? All they do is allow diversification, they don't give a direct advantage. When flying a rifter for example, even in the most extreme example you're using a max of 10 million SP to fly it . The other 90, 190 or 1000 million SP don't matter squat if they don't affect your rifter. How is my marauders 5 skill helping me mine?

Still, it's nice to have. And it gives me personally 'something' to fawn over after having invested 13 years worth of subscription money into the game (or would you say that is pay 2 win? for the record, i'm broke isk wise).

It's also not like the biggest alliance currently in the game started as a bunch of newbies trying to overthrow the established order, and they did just that without any sp advantage whatsoever. And their example is even being repeated by others, proving even more how injectors aren't necessary.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Jenshae Chiroptera
#468 - 2016-03-11 18:52:21 UTC
What could I do with tens of accounts fleshed out to really mess with players?
Well looking at my current client open, I would have 25 of them all actively running before it approaches 100% CPU.

So hey, that could be ((1x T3 hot dropper + (1x HIC logged off in system) per system) x12 systems) +1x Black Ops Battleship.

Now think if a bunch of those multi-box miner who build Supers and Titans decided to train that stuff for a laugh.
Think of the plague, the tears. No limitations on time, nothing pulling them to train in different directions away from a setup like that.
Just one day on a whim, "You know, I could screw with some nerds"

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#469 - 2016-03-11 19:01:36 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
What could I do with tens of accounts fleshed out to really mess with players?
Well looking at my current client open, I would have 25 of them all actively running before it approaches 100% CPU.

So hey, that could be ((1x T3 hot dropper + (1x HIC logged off in system) per system) x12 systems) +1x Black Ops Battleship.

Now think if a bunch of those multi-box miner who build Supers and Titans decided to train that stuff for a laugh.
Think of the plague, the tears. No limitations on time, nothing pulling them to train in different directions away from a setup like that.
Just one day on a whim, "You know, I could screw with some nerds"


And that would mean more action happening in the game. Is more people engaging into PvP bad now? Why do you consider it a plague?
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#470 - 2016-03-11 19:03:35 UTC
Reiisha wrote:




Adding to that, i don't feel like all players need to be identical, stat-wise, to one another. Why shouldn't a vet have 'earned' the right to have a few more skillpoints built up over the years? All they do is allow diversification, they don't give a direct advantage. When flying a rifter for example, even in the most extreme example you're using a max of 10 million SP to fly it . The other 90, 190 or 1000 million SP don't matter squat if they don't affect your rifter. How is my marauders 5 skill helping me mine?


That limitation also exist for anyone buying SP. He's only really buying options at some point because just like you, his rifter is not getting any better even if he bought alliance management V.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#471 - 2016-03-11 20:08:44 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Daerrol wrote:
Please guys skill injectors are just a less efficient character bazaar. The fear that newbros will have 30 titan accounts by buying billions of PLEX is irrelevant. They could do that already by buying 30 characters that COME with Titans (Not to mention buying a titan in game requires a LOT of work to not get scammed, where as buying a character with a titan is CCP garunteed so it's easier + cheaper)

I think all the normies who play EVE 'for fun' are comming out and faffing about when the vets already knew how to buy and sell SP and been doing it for years. Fact that character prises rose by a whole lot shows how ignorant some people were.


It's not about that fear, but the eroding of a core game mechanic. The bazaar doesn't sidestep this at all, after all, you're still buying a premade character, with a set amount of sp in very specific skills, with a specific name and corp history. You're not buying 'just skills' off the bazaar, not to mention that you need another character slot and can't train the new character at the same time as your current one unless you buy a new account.

Also, how many titan-capable characters have you seen on the bazaar? Which also leads to another thing that differentiates the bazaar: How do you expect to get a titan without an alliance which builds it for you, and trusts you to fly it? No one is going to give it to a character which is known to be sold, or has a sketchy history to begin with.

The bazaar is not even close to how the skill injectors work.


No, they work pretty much the same.

If I sell a character today, I had to spend days, weeks, months, even years training them to that point.
If I want to sell a similar amount of SP I have spend actually more time training the SP.

Yes, with the bazaar you can end up with badly allocated SP, but with injectors you face a fairly steep diminishing marginal rate of return. That is you'll pay more for using injectors than the bazaar. And with a character with badly allocated SP you'd probably be better off extracting the SP and selling them.

As for titan pilots....2 on the front page right now.

link
link

And you can buy a titan off the market as well.

link

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Reiisha
#472 - 2016-03-12 02:16:41 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Reiisha wrote:
Daerrol wrote:
Please guys skill injectors are just a less efficient character bazaar. The fear that newbros will have 30 titan accounts by buying billions of PLEX is irrelevant. They could do that already by buying 30 characters that COME with Titans (Not to mention buying a titan in game requires a LOT of work to not get scammed, where as buying a character with a titan is CCP garunteed so it's easier + cheaper)

I think all the normies who play EVE 'for fun' are comming out and faffing about when the vets already knew how to buy and sell SP and been doing it for years. Fact that character prises rose by a whole lot shows how ignorant some people were.


It's not about that fear, but the eroding of a core game mechanic. The bazaar doesn't sidestep this at all, after all, you're still buying a premade character, with a set amount of sp in very specific skills, with a specific name and corp history. You're not buying 'just skills' off the bazaar, not to mention that you need another character slot and can't train the new character at the same time as your current one unless you buy a new account.

Also, how many titan-capable characters have you seen on the bazaar? Which also leads to another thing that differentiates the bazaar: How do you expect to get a titan without an alliance which builds it for you, and trusts you to fly it? No one is going to give it to a character which is known to be sold, or has a sketchy history to begin with.

The bazaar is not even close to how the skill injectors work.


No, they work pretty much the same.

If I sell a character today, I had to spend days, weeks, months, even years training them to that point.
If I want to sell a similar amount of SP I have spend actually more time training the SP.

Yes, with the bazaar you can end up with badly allocated SP, but with injectors you face a fairly steep diminishing marginal rate of return. That is you'll pay more for using injectors than the bazaar. And with a character with badly allocated SP you'd probably be better off extracting the SP and selling them.

As for titan pilots....2 on the front page right now.

link
link

And you can buy a titan off the market as well.

link


Not exactly convinced by either pilot. But hey, you also prove one of my points as they 'only' have 40 and 50m sp :)

Also, you're looking at it the wrong way around - The comparison is made in buying them, not selling them. Even then, the injectors are easier to sell since they give a flat, customizable 500k rather than possibly skillpoints you don't need, even if there's diminishing returns on it - The buyer's don't care. Pedantics aside, the bazaar is still the lesser evil by far.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Jenshae Chiroptera
#473 - 2016-03-12 09:33:07 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
... Is more people engaging into PvP bad now? ...
Are you being deliberately obtuse to troll?
Line member ISK, hitting them day to day makes them more risk adverse and less likely to buy into doctrines and fleet up.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cellini Benvenuto
Ephemeral Syzygy
#474 - 2016-03-12 16:12:14 UTC
A few points from a relatively new player on this rather sensitive subject:

1. I've used SP injectors to touch up a few skills on one of my characters. I'm not Rolling in money, so it was a few Isk savings worth 4 injectors without going for a remap. It was useful for the said character as I didn't have to wait until finishing the current skill plan. All in all, it bumped the character's overall skill points by roughly 4% for the price of 2 plexes. The character in question had been brought off the market for roughly 5B isk.

2. I don't buy the pay2win argument. I really can't think of a way to win Eve. Okay, I don't really play Eve as it is supposed to be played for a variety of reasons. I just do my little thing. It is fun, amusing, sometimes exciting. But I have fun playing eve (pretty much the only game I ever play). But I would imagine the same remains true for people who do play Eve. There are a lot of things to do and a lot of ways to have fun. The perfect sandbox, in my opinion.

On the other hand:

1. While it may not be pay to win, it is certainly hurting those who can't pay. The drop in SOE LP is a case in point and I can fully understand that if someone had trained a char for 9-10 months to be able to do those missions and earn a bit of isk, this flux has hurt his/her earning potential/motivation because suddenly, someone who has more RL money can do the same missions without waiting 8-9 months, and cause a massive drop in his earnings.

2. A huge part of eve - waiting for your skills to train, Learning to do other things in the meantime, finding different ways to have fun - has disappeared.

3. If the idea was to aid the development of newer players - I think it has fallen flat upon its head. The only people who actually benefit are either eve-billionaires, massive alliances, or people with loads of RL money (and even the latter, I'd wager very few actual new players will spend vast sums of money within their first few months without first testing the game to see whether or not they enjoy it. As a new player, hunting those clone soldiers in a destroyer while living in low-sec, trying to make a bit of money to buy a new ship - you don't really make enough isk to consider spending 600+M on 500 000 extra SP. While having found what I like in Eve, I don't really mind if a new character has suddenly 130M SP, if I was joining the game now, I'd probably stay far, far away from it simply because it would be utterly demotivating as a new player to compete in an environment where it seems that you don't stand a chance unless you spend a small fortune.

Personally, I really hope CCP revisits this idea of skill injectors. The basis is decent enough - a few extra skillpoints/skill remapping for money. But a carte blanche is not a very good idea. A limit on monthly skill points purchased/added would have been a much better idea. (I think a char can train close to 2M SP/month - so a limit of 1M SP/month purchased should have been a maximum).
Jenshae Chiroptera
#475 - 2016-03-13 10:15:52 UTC
Cellini Benvenuto wrote:
...2. I don't buy the pay2win argument. I really can't think of a way to win Eve. ...
I think it was (RED Alliance?) that had huge amounts of cash turned into ISK via PLEX by a Russian aluminium tycoon and the war they had with Goons was pretty big at the time.
In a round about way Mittens is paid to play and win for Goons.
His website has funds generated by the sale of PLEX, advertising and ...

It is already in place and it can get worse.
APIs + Injectors, you can make sure your members inject certain skills to train a doctrine and have perfect skills for it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Cautious Kev
Doomheim
#476 - 2016-03-13 10:34:32 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Terminal Insanity wrote:



When a rich brat can but a shitton of plex and then inject several characters on several accounts to titans, and then plex some titans for them all.... That is ******* pay2win.


A rich brat could burn PLEX on the market for ISK, buy pre-trained titan pilots and titans with said ISK and achieve the exact same result before except probably cheaper since no SP were sunk in the diminushing return system of SP injector use.

Unless you were also against the bazaar, you have no point to stand on against SP injectors.


Injectors are a way to use real money in order to progress your own character with precisely the skills you want - a character with a name, race and gender which you chose and sculpted yourself at the moment of creation. This is not analogous to the bazaar.

I don't mind the injectors, but stop comparing the use of them to buying characters from the bazaar.
Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#477 - 2016-03-13 15:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
What could I do with tens of accounts fleshed out to really mess with players?
Well looking at my current client open, I would have 25 of them all actively running before it approaches 100% CPU.

So hey, that could be ((1x T3 hot dropper + (1x HIC logged off in system) per system) x12 systems) +1x Black Ops Battleship.

Now think if a bunch of those multi-box miner who build Supers and Titans decided to train that stuff for a laugh.
Think of the plague, the tears. No limitations on time, nothing pulling them to train in different directions away from a setup like that.
Just one day on a whim, "You know, I could screw with some nerds"


And that would mean more action happening in the game. Is more people engaging into PvP bad now? Why do you consider it a plague?


someone likely has said this further down the thread, but, I haven't read that far...
So please forgive me if i make a statement or point someone else had made further down.
My reply/thought:
People already make accounts to screw with people, sometimes it is their main, sometimes an alt, that's already a core factor of the game and it DOES create more content and the whole example of "that could be ((1x T3 hot dropper + (1x HIC logged off in system) per system) x12 systems) +1x Black Ops Battleship" already exist in many forms and/or combinations of that example, this is nothing new, go to provi where there's a cloaky camper sitting in system day after day until people get complacent and start to ignore them, then all of a sudden, boom, lock, scram, cyno and you bring your alts in to blap the lucky target.
I don't want to sound like an arse, but that bridge has long since been crossed in EvE and it is a viable and productive tactic...

To follow Frosty's lead; Why exactly would someone consider "more PvP" in a game whose very core and claim to fame includes PvP to be a bad thing?

More often than not I think the perception is that someone is now able to do something that's long been considered taboo, but when you factor in the core aspects of the bazaar (IE getting a character to do something you can't do now) there's not much difference. you don't have the stigma of history, or being locked into everything else that character can do being useless to you, or even some name that you totally wouldn't pick for yourself, but, you still get to do what you want.

What we do get from the change is that "you are no longer able to judge a character's abilities by their Birth-date".
For some folks, that's a very exciting factor in that they can no longer tell if they will be fighting a n00b or someone who is going to surprise them".

Something to think about.
o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

W33b3l
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#478 - 2016-03-14 01:05:06 UTC
They cost way more in game then I thought they would on the game market anyway. There's no way a newer player could afford them through in game means. Wich means they would either have to buy plex or aurum to get them. On top of that, low SP players are really the only ones that benefit from it (players wth the SP I have, the drawbacks are so drastic its not worth the cost), so its abviousley a money grab and not intended to be a helpfull game mechanic.

This is my biggest problem with them. If the extractors where manufactured by players (BPO's seeded in the market somehow) and the market price was dictated solely by the market instead of how much isk they are worth based on how much the arum cost to get them, I wouldnt be so put off by them. Sure this would make the use of them more rampant because they would be cheaper, but it would be a pure game mechanic and not a money grab.

The fact they can only be brought into existence by buying aurum means that CCP cares more about making RW money off it then it benefiting the game itself. This is a contrast of interest as far as the stability of the game world is concerned. If this pattern keeps up to a point that it applies to other things that directly effect the game (and there is a pattern with aurum) it will eventually cause a rift and destroy the game. The DEVS that where not around at the start of the game and dont understand the cult following that keeps this game alive could easily ruin it with this type of stuff. I actually find it insulting when we are told its for the benefit of the game when the real purpose is as black and white as a checkbook.

You argue if injectors alone hurt the game all you want, thats not really the point. Its the reason why they exist that is the problem.

As for the references to the BAZZAR. The people that say they are the same must drink too much, and we all know how much EVE players drink. If someone buys a character, nothing is added or removed from the game. That player and its assets still exist like it always has. Its the equivalent of a pilot suffering mass amnesia, forgetting a crap load of stuff and being a different person overall. It is also restrictive. Being able to level a new character (although only rich credit card silver soon babies will be able to afford it) means that there are more people fighting over the same resources with the ability to do so. This can be a good or a bad thing depending on how you look at it, but the two are not the same at all.

Some of the latest changes make me fear for the future of EVE. The map and camera not withstanding.

Galphram NefreX
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#479 - 2016-03-14 01:08:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphram NefreX
Derp I posted in wrong thread...Drunk posting FTW ?
raknor bile
Strix Ridens
#480 - 2016-03-14 14:19:00 UTC
W33b3l wrote:


The fact they can only be brought into existence by buying aurum means that CCP cares more about making RW money off it then it benefiting the game itself.


You do know CCP is a company and that they exist to make money right?