Intergalactic Summit

Honestly if I blew something up and found 50,000 slaves in it I'd probably trash them too. The logistical effort required in having to move them just to turn a profit isn't worth it compared to modules which have a higher ISK/m3.

Slaves go for what... 300ISK per unit these days? So you'd need to run a freighter just for 15 mil ISK. Yeah, not worth it.

There's a very big difference between coming for our people and suicide for a crew, or putting them in a similar (though admittedly more humane) fate. We didn't find this tower, quite obviously any actions we take are going to be surrounded by other people with a thing for seeing our own in slavery. Even if we as capsuleers trust that a similar fate won't happen to our crews, explain that to them.

In the end these towers are generally set up in YOUR empires space. You want us to not invade your sovergn space with " terrorist" actions, he's your problem right? The people your saving aren't even being treated as such once they're well. Back to slavery they go right? If we tried to take them back to the republic (if we were even allowed in the AO, unlike miz I believe and myself when we've offered) we would more than likely be shot by a much superior number then we could realistically get on the field.

Ms. Vess?

You're certainly correct that diplomatic relations around one of these things can get thorny. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but maybe there are other factors that make it so. You're certainly correct that disposition of Nauplius's prisoners is likely to be an issue (as it turns out, not all are returned to slavery, though many are); maybe something could be worked out, though.

At the very least, it's not like the Amarr are going to turn up to defend one of Nauplius's towers.

That said, respectfully, and understanding fully how central these issues are to you: the primary reason the Society, or the Amarr generally, reliably move against Nauplius is a sense of disgust and outrage over the way that he treats the people in his care. You and the Amarr do not differ over whether these slaves are people or whether they should be treated like people; only on what rights and duties "people" have.

Concededly, Nauplius is a rogue Amarrian operating in Amarrian space and under an Amarrian flag. He's also declared genocidal intentions against your people, and he consistently sets these things up for no purpose but to make large numbers of your people suffer as much as possible before they die.

He's maybe a distraction, but he's a charismatic one, and do you and Miz really think he wouldn't be perfectly happy to sit back in his tower, murder people by the tens of thousands, and crow about how nobody's doing anything to stop him?

Miz draws a more or less straight line between Nauplius and certain Holders (maybe all of them), but, even if that's fair, Nauplius is an outlier, an easy target, whereas the practice of slavery in the Empire, morally equivalent or not, is not going to be ended in a single successful op-- or in a thousand, most likely.

In the meantime, the Amarr are saying, "What we do and what he does are not at all the same thing, and we'll put our resources and our people's lives on the line to prove it." Even if you really agree with Miz, you're basically letting them farm him for good PR.

... is what I'd like to be able to say, but the risks are real. The Society lost a dreadnought, this time.

Viewed coldly, that might actually strengthen the message. Viewed less coldly ... a lot of our (the Society's) people just died, trying to rescue yours.

Well when your faction agrees on everything 100% of the time you can expect us too as well.

Perhaps. The way it's previously come out is:



That might be hyperbole. I kind of hope it is.

(Does an honest person really get to engage in exaggeration?)



I think you're the one pretending, Miz-- that there's no ambiguity in this.

Which word applies, and how, probably depends on whom you ask. If we asked Miri, I kind of suspect she doesn't even view it ambiguously: we rescued her. If we asked Chaduk, I think his opinion probably shifted over time (though the real shift might have been from "doesn't matter" to "recaptured").

If we asked the people who died ... I guess, "Too little, too late."

As for the survivors ... it's not something I think of without mixed feelings, either. It's been a little while since anyone's told me I'd be better off as a slave. That might be the company I'm keeping. I'm aware that a lot probably think it.

Here's the crux of it, though, Miz. I sympathize some with your view of slavery, and I do think the Matari critique of the Amarr has teeth to it, but I don't regret helping the people we've helped. I accept certain terms, working with the Society, and working within Imperial law is one of those. Maybe that leads to an outcome I'm not wholly comfortable with, but at least I do get to meet, work with, and help these people.

If I sided with you ... I wouldn't.

If you want to think of me as an evil or naive person, that's okay. I'll accept that sort of critique from you. Great powers and civilizations are fascinating; I love watching the interplay between them develop. But, really, when you make a moral argument for one over another, what you're really saying is, "My culture's better than yours."

That doesn't seem especially obvious to me. If you can't rally support to take on a Nauplius, if you feel you can lay the onus for countering him on people you know won't handle it in a way that satisfies you, if you can say that you come for your people while leaving the rescue of the worst-off among them in the hands of the very enemies you mean to save them from ...

... does that really say to you that yours is the worthier culture?

Four thousand years, Miz. That's how old the Empire is. I don't like everything it does, or what it might mean for me and people like me. But I can't deny the accomplishment ... or that they seem to actually act on what they claim to believe.

I remember you saying you think the Empire's stagnant, ailing, ready to fall. I see none of that. While I don't precisely see the Empire as ready to sweep over the cluster, conquering all in its path (as some might wish), it keeps shouldering its burdens and carrying on, stable, solid, and nearly tireless.

And as long as you're letting the Amarr do pretty much all the rescuing of your people from what are, let's be direct about this, death camps, I don't think the claim that they are the ones who are weak and corrupt is credible.

Well played.

Miz, I'm tired, so I'll keep this brief.

You've said in the past that you have "bigger fish to fry." That means you're prioritizing the Empire over Nauplius.

You do have pilots to take on the Empire, obviously, that's true. It sounds, though, like you don't have pilots for Nauplius even if you wanted to confront him (and maybe you really do?).

That, in turn, implies that you're having some luck acquiring mercenaries (like me, arguably), but ... not so much at maintaining people who are really loyal. Or even who care very much about coming for your people, including the ones in the most desperate need.

That's ... really pretty unfortunate.

My point wasn't so much "we strong, you weak, therefore we right, bwahahaha," as this:

The Empire still commands the loyalty of a sizable contingent of capsuleers who are willing and able to go and do stuff like this. That says a few things about social cohesion, among other things. They're "free," and they're doing this anyway. As social indicators go ... that seems like a pretty good sign.

It seems like cobbling together Matari pilots to take on Nauplius should be an achievable thing. Is it really not?

Again you seem to take what I say in the worst possible way. The majority of capsuleers are amoral psychopaths. This is pretty much indisputable. This is not a statement about the Empire, the State, the Federation or the Tribes. It's about capsuleers. The Empire is a very friendly place for people without moral compunctions about issues like slavery, breeding facilities, reclaiming by force and other such... 'features' of the Empire.

I am accusing capsuleers adhering to the Empire's ways of either lacking or ignoring some very basic ethics and morality. You have seen me praise the Empire's good sides before, and you should know by now that my list of grievances with the Empire can be boiled down to very few points. They're just sticking points.

But of course, when things become hard to argue against or uncomfortable to face, it's easier to dismiss the person saying it, isn't it? Again, I expected more from you than that trite old fallback position. Still, if it makes you critique and consider my remarks more carefully, all the better. I've never asked anyone to take anything I say on blind faith. That's closer to the opposite of how it should work.



How many DnG or 24thIC pilots came along for your fleets? The participants of the proxy wars have never counted more than a tiny fraction of loyalists, drowning in a sea of opportunists, profit mongers and simple warmongers. You can ask Onzo there how many of CVA's numbers are actual Empire loyalists and how many are just there for the profits and area of space.

Even if we could focus all of the TLF into one force, a feat of nailing smoke to the wall that I'd pay any entertainer to perform, then a piddly little tower with barely a few thousand people in it would probably not be the best target for such a hammer. Then there'd definitely be bigger nuts to crack, yielding a whole lot more benefit for a whole lot more people, short and long-term. His tower would probably be an afterthought swept up in the process.

Of course, this is not likely to happen and it'd pretty much shut me out of it in the process, as I don't fly with blooders, sansha, angels etc. Too many of these creatures infesting the proxy war already.

They are very basic, from a modern civilized human being's point of view. "Most outer powers" are considered barbaric or uncivilized criminals worthy of being shot on sight and hardly something to aspire to when it comes to ethics and morality, are they? More importantly, the Empire becomes my target when it comes to these things because of several reasons:

1. Affected me personally.
2. Still holds a humongous chunk of my people.
3. Is an actual on-going threat to my people and my Tribes.
4. Actively attempts to spread this across New Eden by force and indoctrination.

These other criminal elements are hardly in a position to be actual threats on any comparable scale, even if they fall just as short on the basic ethics and morality. As for ethics and morality being easy to ignore, well yes. It's pretty much non-existent amongst capsuleers, as I've already mentioned.

As for seeing the world from other people's point of view... I have, actually. That's why I am this staunch. I've looked at things from the Tribes' viewpoint, I've meditated on the State's hyper-capitalism and other features, and studied the flaws and merits of democracy and so on. I've lived the Amarr point of view, and considered it very carefully more than once.

That is why I allow myself to be firm on these matters. I came to my viewpoints through a lot of consideration and thought, and discussion and debate. When people then try to defend championing the way the Empire causes untold suffering and harm to my people, and then even tries to claim it's morally and ethically justfifiable... why should I care about their feelings?

Why should I cajole and entertain these attempts at justifying these crimes against my people, especially from someone who has never known these crimes themselves?

When you side with those who are quite demonstrably the greatest cause of suffering and death among my people, the ones who ended the longest period of peace known to New Eden, you're not exactly someone I should be expected to offer pretend niceties to. I don't see how this should be so confusing to you, even though you are now submerged in a culture of falsehoods and pretense.

Thank you, Miz. I appreciate you clarifying this for me.

I will remember it.