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Yachts, yachts, yachts.

First post First post First post
Author
Credacom
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2016-03-11 05:15:28 UTC
Total **** gameplay as is, needs a change.
Avoiding combat and trolling holes is the weaponization not many have seen due to all time levels of neckbearding and autism some have been willing to stretch.
Countermeasures are so unequal/unreliable it's dumb.
All options would be sufficient, just pick any and WHs will be better off.
More fights, more ganks.
Winthorp
#42 - 2016-03-11 09:02:29 UTC
The only real issue i see for this change is the people that abuse Yachts heavily cough...TDSIN...cough, will just log off.

But making higgs rig remove nullification would be an acceptable fix that needs to happen.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#43 - 2016-03-11 09:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
The only real issue i see for this change is the people that abuse Yachts heavily cough...TDSIN...cough, will just log off.

But making higgs rig remove nullification would be an acceptable fix that needs to happen.


That, is quite correct, removing the yacht as a vehicle that IS capable of rolling away a hostile hole, all be it slowly, does not improve the game or give more combat, because any alternative under those circumstances, would involve non play activities, logging off, posing up.

Expecting players who are seriously outnumbered, to sacrifice themselves in battleships, is unrealistic in the extreme.

Whilst we all get annoyed, who like a good skirmish, trying to "nail the prey down" is just not a sensible request. We will just Drive smaller groups away, and have nothing to play with.

Removing the nullification, as well as the other alternatives, just mean one less ship for these weaker corps (or corps out of main gametime with low numbers) to have as an option. Coupled with the fact that the next ship, that is deemed to hard to catch , The T3's would then have a precident to be removed, that way lies a dangerous path, and although initially attractive, would turn wormholes into a desert, because "why bother trying to live in a wormhole" would be the response.

Attempts to turn space into a PVP heaven, rarely or never work, as without prey, then predators starve.

There are a couple of posts that indicate, there are swarm rollers, using large numbers, that seem to be unbalanced. But normal useage is certainly not, and a sensible use.

The only reasonable solutions are to leave them alone, but that will lead to this sort of taking advantage.
Or finding some way of preventing swarming, without affecting legitimate annd reasonable use from small and outmatched players.

If higgs rigs could be disabled, when in the presence of 3 or more other higgs on grid, then I could get behind them ALL having the higgs rig be destabilised and So not work under these conditions.


How possible this is, I cannot say, but it would be effective.
It also would remove the "slippery slope argument" where we would never stop nerfing every hole rolling ship.

But turning any of the features off without regard for how they are being used, will just cause harm. And the cure is worse than the disease.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Winthorp
#44 - 2016-03-11 09:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
The only real issue i see for this change is the people that abuse Yachts heavily cough...TDSIN...cough, will just log off.

But making higgs rig remove nullification would be an acceptable fix that needs to happen.


That, is quite correct, removing the yacht as a vehicle that IS capable of rolling away a hostile hole, all be it slowly, does not improve the game or give more combat, because any alternative under those circumstances, would involve non play activities, logging off, posing up.

Expecting players who are seriously outnumbered, to sacrifice themselves in battleships, is unrealistic in the extreme.

Whilst we all get annoyed, who like a good skirmish, trying to "nail the prey down" is just not a sensible request. We will just Drive smaller groups away, and have nothing to play with.

Removing the nullification, as well as the other alternatives, just mean one less ship for these weaker corps (or corps out of main gametime with low numbers) to have as an option. Coupled with the fact that the next ship, that is deemed to hard to catch , The T3's would then have a precident to be removed, that way lies a dangerous path, and although initially attractive, would turn wormholes into a desert, because "why bother trying to live in a wormhole" would be the response.

Attempts to turn space into a PVP heaven, rarely or never work, as without prey, then predators starve.

There are a couple of posts that indicate, there are swarm rollers, using large numbers, that seem to be unbalanced. But normal useage is certainly not, and a sensible use.

The only reasonable solutions are to leave them alone, but that will lead to this sort of taking advantage.
Or finding some way of preventing swarming, without affecting legitimate and reasonable use from small and outmatched players.

If higgs rigs could be disabled, when in the presence of 3 or more other higgs on grid, then I could get behind them ALL having the higgs rig be destabilised and So not work under these conditions.
How possible this is, I cannot say, but it would be effective.

But turning any of the features off without regard for how they are being used, will just cause harm. And the cure is worse than the disease.



Look i could almost stretch to agree with you but here is where our views part.

Yatchs are heavily used by weaker groups to roll away the danger i will agree with you however they are also used by semi competent groups who should be having interactions with other groups. While they may not be able to fight the large couple of high class corps they are now being used en mass to avoid any interactions between even well matched groups.

So no they need to be nerfed m8. Accept it honestly.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#45 - 2016-03-11 10:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
The only real issue i see for this change is the people that abuse Yachts heavily cough...TDSIN...cough, will just log off.

But making higgs rig remove nullification would be an acceptable fix that needs to happen.


That, is quite correct, removing the yacht as a vehicle that IS capable of rolling away a hostile hole, all be it slowly, does not improve the game or give more combat, because any alternative under those circumstances, would involve non play activities, logging off, posing up.

Expecting players who are seriously outnumbered, to sacrifice themselves in battleships, is unrealistic in the extreme.

Whilst we all get annoyed, who like a good skirmish, trying to "nail the prey down" is just not a sensible request. We will just Drive smaller groups away, and have nothing to play with.

Removing the nullification, as well as the other alternatives, just mean one less ship for these weaker corps (or corps out of main gametime with low numbers) to have as an option. Coupled with the fact that the next ship, that is deemed to hard to catch , The T3's would then have a precident to be removed, that way lies a dangerous path, and although initially attractive, would turn wormholes into a desert, because "why bother trying to live in a wormhole" would be the response.

Attempts to turn space into a PVP heaven, rarely or never work, as without prey, then predators starve.

There are a couple of posts that indicate, there are swarm rollers, using large numbers, that seem to be unbalanced. But normal useage is certainly not, and a sensible use.

The only reasonable solutions are to leave them alone, but that will lead to this sort of taking advantage.
Or finding some way of preventing swarming, without affecting legitimate and reasonable use from small and outmatched players.

If higgs rigs could be disabled, when in the presence of 3 or more other higgs on grid, then I could get behind them ALL having the higgs rig be destabilised and So not work under these conditions.
How possible this is, I cannot say, but it would be effective.

But turning any of the features off without regard for how they are being used, will just cause harm. And the cure is worse than the disease.



Look i could almost stretch to agree with you but here is where our views part.

Yatchs are heavily used by weaker groups to roll away the danger i will agree with you however they are also used by semi competent groups who should be having interactions with other groups. While they may not be able to fight the large couple of high class corps they are now being used en mass to avoid any interactions between even well matched peir groups.

So no they need to be nerfed m8. Accept it honestly.


I do agree that the use in large numbers to swarm roll a hole, does seem excessive and out of balance. We have dealt with it, when encountering a couple, by cross jumping and rolling them in, it is possible to catch a couple that way, but I have fortunately not seen a swarm yet.


If a way was possible to prevent swarming, would you feel that would be acceptability balanced?

If so we can recommend to Corbexx, to explore if such a mechanic was possible?

I put one potential method in my post, and I have edited it to make it clearer?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Winthorp
#46 - 2016-03-11 10:09:19 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



If a way was possible to prevent swarming, would you feel that would be acceptability balanced?

If so we can recommend to Corbexx, to explore if such a mechanic was possible?

I put one potential method in my post, and I have edited it to make it clearer?



No i don't agree at all. I think they are overpowered even outside a swarm.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#47 - 2016-03-11 10:17:04 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:



If a way was possible to prevent swarming, would you feel that would be acceptability balanced?

If so we can recommend to Corbexx, to explore if such a mechanic was possible?

I put one potential method in my post, and I have edited it to make it clearer?



No i don't agree at all. I think they are overpowered even outside a swarm.


Ok, whilst I do not use them, nor do my corp, as holes are the best place to get a good decently matched fight, I would love to get more.
I can see why some would like to use them when confronted with a hole containing a major PVP alliance with fifty on.

I think trying to make them totally ineffective, would not gain a single fight from people who would avoid content at any cost.
It would be all pain for legitimate uses, for no gain.

The corps who swarm roll holes, really should be at least trying to fight, I agree.

But how on earth do we get those to fight? Removing ship by ship goes yacht, t3, prospects, mass ecm bursts, mass falcons, (pick any ship/evasion fit), until there is nothing left.

People who are determined to avoid content at any cost will do so or leave wormhole space.

I know some see (insert hated/different gameplay here) leaving as a good thing, i contend fewer people in wormholes is never a good thing.

But I accept your position, and can respect it in turn, and I am happy to agree to differ.

Ps.I know, you want more content in wormhole space too, hope there is no confusion with my post.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2016-03-11 12:12:22 UTC
The issue with the yachts is that they are uncatchable.
Removing the nullifying effect when a higgs rig is fitted is a perfectly fine fix. Smile
Eikin Skjald
Ars Venandi
#49 - 2016-03-11 13:12:13 UTC
Rolling your static or a hostile hole should be a little bit risky.

I don't agree, that PvE Groups won't do anything if Yachts were nerved. They were rolling WHs in the Past, the will do in the future.
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
#50 - 2016-03-11 13:42:17 UTC
i agree higgs anchor rig = no covert ops cloak , nullification can stay . player can fit still warp core stabilizers and run
Helena Heffalump
#51 - 2016-03-11 13:56:00 UTC
this has been around a long time with rolling t3s, suddently it becomes an issue with yachts? silly


the people rolling with these werent going to fight you anyways. and they certaintly are not going to roll with something catchable, it dosent really change anything.

a waste of ccp development time. at least the way they are now gives tiny wh groups some way to grasp hole control once in a while.
Robnik Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2016-03-11 14:00:21 UTC
I think the fix to Yachts requires two things:


  1. Higgs rig should remove nullification (should apply to T3s as well)
  2. Nerf to PG to make it impossible to fit a 100MN AB


Yachts are cancer and they need to be removed from the wormhole content-denial meta. But let's not pretend that T3s weren't used for the same things before Yachts were introduced. Rolling T3s have exactly the same set of problems that Yachts do - they just cost more (ISK is not a balancing factor). Let's make sure they both get nerfed.

With these nerfs, Yachts would become completely useless for rolling and rolling T3s would need to either become catchable or live without the Higgs anchor. I think both of these changes are a big improvement to gameplay.
unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#53 - 2016-03-11 14:06:28 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Ok, whilst I do not use them, nor do my corp, as holes are the best place to get a good decently matched fight, I would love to get more.
I can see why some would like to use them when confronted with a hole containing a major PVP alliance with fifty on.
I think trying to make them totally ineffective, would not gain a single fight from people who would avoid content at any cost.
It would be all pain for legitimate uses, for no gain.
The corps who swarm roll holes, really should be at least trying to fight, I agree.
But how on earth do we get those to fight? Removing ship by ship goes yacht, t3, prospects, mass ecm bursts, mass falcons, (pick any ship/evasion fit), until there is nothing left.
People who are determined to avoid content at any cost will do so or leave wormhole space.
I know some see (insert hated/different gameplay here) leaving as a good thing, i contend fewer people in wormholes is never a good thing.
But I accept your position, and can respect it in turn, and I am happy to agree to differ.
Ps.I know, you want more content in wormhole space too, hope there is no confusion with my post.

So in your scenario, a smaller entity having a enemy fleet of 50 in their home should be able to roll without any risk.
Leaving the fleet of 50 stranded, having to take to long road home without any kill to show for.
How can you see that being acceptable?
It is not about rolling the hole, it is about rolling the hole without any risk or counter.
Besides if you don't want to fight you leave the hunters alone, 90% of them will not wait more then half an hour.
Prey that knows you are there and will run is even harder to catch.
And saying that this will make it that fewer people will be in wh space will probably be false since we didn't see a large influx of people thanks to the yachts... .
Besides if you only remove nullification you can still roll with them if you use carefully places scouts and the cloak. It just won't be riskfree from a fleet with bubbler... .

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Mimiko Severovski
Zero Fun Allowed
#54 - 2016-03-11 14:21:17 UTC
The amount of people who are saying that yachts are uncatchable saddens me at how easy the game/bad players have become.
That being said, nulification is the main problem here, but withouth it yachts lose their purpose as cloaky shuttles, so making higgs rigs remove it seems like a good fix, but it does not fix the core of the problem which is oversized propmods.
If anything it will slow down connection massing (unless one ofc has 10 yachts on their sp farm alts which pay for themselves loged off in their wh) so that it wont take 13 runs with a yacht, but 26.
Reducing PG on the yachts might be a better solution then, altho it will not fix the tech t3 cruiser problem (which does the same thing at expense of more sp and isk, which isn't much in todays eve).

And oversized propmod nulified cloaky t3s date back ever since I could remember, and the issue was never properly addressed, then again eve players weren't always crying on the forums instead of trying to figure out a solution within the game.

Tom Uchonela
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-03-11 14:31:46 UTC
I don't find the use of a couple of higgs yachts to be bad at all. As a couple of people have pointed out, they are easily countered by collapsing the hole yourself with them on the wrong side. We've also had fun making them warp off by throwing insta-locks on our end of the hole, then sneaking through cloakies while they were offgrid. They finished collapsing, thought they were safe, start running sites, we decloaked and killed them all.

Yeah, killing the yacht itself in a way that generates a killmail is hard. But just like those pilots are applying a novel solution to an old problem, I don't think it's unreasonable for pvp pilots to do the same.

The people doing this do so because they think they are safe. They forget the #1 rule of w-space, you are never safe.
Use that to your advantage.


Regardless, blaming higgs for the problem isn't a solution. As someone else pointed out, removing cloaks with a higgs equipped just reinforces use of instawarp fits, removing interdiction just makes people stop using higgs and instead just use a 60m kg (conveniently enough a better number for collapsing) non-higgs'd yacht with an oversized ab. Twice as many trips, same result.
Removing the ability for it to fit oversized ABs just makes it take longer, or has people swap to nullified t3s, which honestly, are not as long a train as people make them out to be, especially if you supplement with a few injectors.

Honestly the truth is, if someone doesn't want to fight you, they're not going to fight you. They're going to pos up and log off if they can't get rid of you another way.

If you actually want to kill these guys, you have to make them think they are safe. When they use yachts, they literally do your job for you.
Anthar Thebess
#56 - 2016-03-11 14:41:39 UTC
Make all wormholes mass random, instead of fixed number like now, make it +- 25% random from current value.
Braxus Deninard
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#57 - 2016-03-11 14:44:38 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Make all wormholes mass random, instead of fixed number like now, make it +- 25% random from current value.


people like this is why i try not to post on eveo forums much, serious feedback /discussion with people who actually know what they're talking about is almost impossible to find here
sHanQ Myteia
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2016-03-11 14:56:50 UTC  |  Edited by: sHanQ Myteia
easy to fix rolling Yachts:
- reduce Power grid on yachts

easy to fix rolling T3s;
- If Higgs rig fit, covert ops cloak cant be used(any ship) - basically the same code as if you fitted 2 cloaks
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#59 - 2016-03-11 15:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
unimatrix0030 wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Ok, whilst I do not use them, nor do my corp, as holes are the best place to get a good decently matched fight, I would love to get more.
I can see why some would like to use them when confronted with a hole containing a major PVP alliance with fifty on.
I think trying to make them totally ineffective, would not gain a single fight from people who would avoid content at any cost.
It would be all pain for legitimate uses, for no gain.
The corps who swarm roll holes, really should be at least trying to fight, I agree.
But how on earth do we get those to fight? Removing ship by ship goes yacht, t3, prospects, mass ecm bursts, mass falcons, (pick any ship/evasion fit), until there is nothing left.
People who are determined to avoid content at any cost will do so or leave wormhole space.
I know some see (insert hated/different gameplay here) leaving as a good thing, i contend fewer people in wormholes is never a good thing.
But I accept your position, and can respect it in turn, and I am happy to agree to differ.
Ps.I know, you want more content in wormhole space too, hope there is no confusion with my post.

So in your scenario, a smaller entity having a enemy fleet of 50 in their home should be able to roll without any risk.
Leaving the fleet of 50 stranded, having to take to long road home without any kill to show for.
How can you see that being acceptable?
It is not about rolling the hole, it is about rolling the hole without any risk or counter.
Besides if you don't want to fight you leave the hunters alone, 90% of them will not wait more then half an hour.
Prey that knows you are there and will run is even harder to catch.
And saying that this will make it that fewer people will be in wh space will probably be false since we didn't see a large influx of people thanks to the yachts... .
Besides if you only remove nullification you can still roll with them if you use carefully places scouts and the cloak. It just won't be riskfree from a fleet with bubbler... .

Well, that is not really what I said, the Yacht is not an essential tool, but it does under the right conditions give an alternative to pos'ing up or logging off.

Someone would need to be both brain dead and stupid, to roll a 50 man wolf pack into their home, and them taking the long way home would only occur when they had left the system a smoking ruin 😄 So I don't think that would really be an issue.

And please explain to the yacht owners, who have been rolled, out and have to self destruct, is a zero risk activity, you are aware that hole mass varies? And as for no counter? Players are equipped with brains as well as guns, Cross jumping them is hilarious! And hearing them in local begging to be given a route out rather than Self destruct, even better. I am sure you could find even better mechanics if you thought about it.

And never forget, that a risk-averse player is not suddenly going to turn into a rageing killing machine, if the yacht is unavailable, he will just pick an alternative until that is banned, and then the next one, until they leave. And WH space has no one to shoot at.

And I WANT people to shoot at, yachts are great for keeping small groups in LOW class WH space, I don't mind missing a few if it keeps them there to be shot at when doing other things.

I do concede, there is an issue with spawn rolling, and I suggest that we need to look how to find something that, can counter that.
If we as a group fail, then asking CCP to see if something like disabling Higgs rigs if there are more than 3 or 4 jumping through within 5 minutes, or more than 3 on grid.

But not destroying the entire utility of them in wormholes for legitimate uses.

Players seem to have a belief, that balance applies in their favour, I already see people adding T3 to the hate list. "Oooh! T3 too hard to catch, And, Hics! How dare they! and, and.... Where do we stop"

This form of player appeasement and pacification, should ONLY apply once all possible player counters have failed, and it deeply unbalances reasonable game play.

Or we end up driving people out of Wormholes because life just becomes untenable for small corporations, and we have no one to shoot at.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Love U LongTime
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2016-03-11 15:28:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Love U LongTime
Credacom wrote:
Total **** gameplay as is, needs a change.
Avoiding combat and trolling holes is the weaponization not many have seen due to all time levels of neckbearding and autism some have been willing to stretch.
Countermeasures are so unequal/unreliable it's dumb.
All options would be sufficient, just pick any and WHs will be better off.
More fights, more ganks. (lol tdsi pvp?)


As much as it sucks to slightly agree with a Dark Space member, he's right.

There are groups who use these yachts to avoid any pvp game-play to avoid risk. Then there is also the other-side of the coin, where other groups can literally deny the usage of another group's static WH connection. All they have to do is just log off a group of low-skill point "yacht alts" and just keep rolling any connections that get opened so the locals cant leave or return to their home system, like the dark space initiative has been experiencing currently Twisted

There's no counter-play, just have to let it happen Oops