These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Bye bye watch lists
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#81 - 2016-03-07 21:46:56 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Alea wrote:
Droidster wrote:

Whoa, whoa, whoa. You mean there is PVP content going on in hisec. I've been in a 3 player corp with my alts for years. How do I get these "people" to wardec me? Is there a form I have to fill out or something?


Dec the wardeccers, but if you're competent at pvp they'll just dock up if they can't greatly outnumber you.


Fighting back only gets you more decs, because that's how starved for content they are.


Exactly this. Wardecs are one of the essentially flawed features in EVE, since the optimal solution is to not play the game.

"You PvP!"
"No I don't" -stops playing the game until PvP is gone.

Wardecs are a lose-lose mechanic. PvPrs don't get PvP and PvErs stop playing the game until they're free to PvE without fear of PvP.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#82 - 2016-03-07 23:19:41 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
For the defender. It removes all knowledge on how they can react. If they don't know if Wartargets are online they will just stay docked up for the week.


If your overview is set up correctly, you can do whatever you want in HS and just run when a wardeccer comes into system. Or just leave HS for a week. No reason to stay docked.

Smitty Uitra wrote:
I agree that the watchlist is free Intel but it's only letting me know if I'm going to actually play Eve today. If I log on and there are no wartargets online then I'm going to go play a different game because I don't have any content today. It's not like the watchlist tells you what system or region of space someone is in. You still have to run locates, send an alt, get eyes on them and still that doesn't guarantee a fight. It all starts with knowing if anyone is online. If that's gone then what's the point of logging in? Let's see I have 600-1000 wartargets. Let me start running locates on someone that may or may not be online send eyes 30 jumps only to not know if the person moved or never was online. I'd almost rather gatecamp lowsec and just kill everything that comes in but CCP will probably do away with that soon too since someone in c&p is crying about that.

The other side is that people on the receiving end of wardecs also use watchlists to make sure no one is hunting them while they are afk mining, running missions\ sites and hauling their crap to hubs. Not all high sec mercs hub camp and sit in the pipe all day. Some mercs look down at that because we like the thrill of the hunt.


Sorry for the rant. Just my $.02


Leave HS and you will get your fights.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2016-03-08 01:13:48 UTC
I only play with a single account, and watchlists were my way of keeping an eye out for certain people that I can't defend myself against. Ie certain smartbombing assassins that wait for me in lowsec. I have no intention of paying for a second account, because why should I be forced to pay $30 a month for a game that purports to only cost $15? This move reduces my ability to function solo within the game, which I believe I can extrapolate to mean it will impact a lot of single-account solo pvp'ers as well. You know, the real solo players, not the ones who say they are solo but actually have more than one account, meaning they're not solo at all.

If this is a real change coming, then it looks like I'm done with this game. I saw a comment earlier that said, "EVE is already too PVP-centric". Well mate, that's why I was here, because it's a PVP game. But it looks like the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Kuetlzelcoatl
#84 - 2016-03-08 01:21:00 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
...
If this is a real change coming, then it looks like I'm done with this game...



If only I had isk for every time someone has said something like this because of a change they don't like.

I would have to never RAT again.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#85 - 2016-03-08 01:25:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
Q: How many EVE players does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: CHANGE???????? NNOOOOOOOOOOO


It's becoming my bio.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2016-03-08 01:30:36 UTC
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
...
If this is a real change coming, then it looks like I'm done with this game...



If only I had isk for every time someone has said something like this because of a change they don't like.

I would have to never RAT again.



This isn't just a change I don't like, it's a change that makes the game unplayable for me. Despite having explained this in clear and concise terminology above, you still managed to skip over it for the one sentence you consider suitable material for trolling and/or ridicule. Say what you want, I just read the patch notes myself to confirm, and my sub now ends permanently on the 30th. If it doesn't change, my toons will be biomassed the day before that date comes.

You think I'm just saying this, don't you? And I don't intend to carry it out? I have a thousand other games to play and in fact, I've been playing more fallout, xcom and elite lately than I have been playing EVE, mostly because I kinda saw the direction EVE was going and decided I might need to ween myself off my attachment to it. See, I love EVE, no other game even comes close. Even with this change, it's still one of the greatest games around. I still feel an attachment to it, an emotional bond to the effort and money that I've poured into it, the good times I've shared with great friends. This has been my greatest gaming experience ever.

But with this change, it's unplayable for me. It's virtually impossible for me to function effectively as a solo pvp'er without the ability to know when certain blobbers/gate campers are online. This limits me to internal rvb activities only, and always working with other people, which I don't always like to do.

Let me put this in simpler terms: this makes the game no longer for me. When someone whines about the game, and say "change it", I'm one of the first people to say, "it's not for you then, don't play it". Why would I not have that same expectation of myself? That would be hypocritical. This isn't a threat to CCP, because I'm more than aware of the fact that one unsub of one account will make little difference to their bottom line. I can project, based on my own mindset, that I won't be the only one that this change kills the game for, but at the end of the day, I can only speak for myself, which is what I'm doing.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2016-03-08 01:34:40 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Q: How many EVE players does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: CHANGE???????? NNOOOOOOOOOOO


It's becoming my bio.


There are many players that have stood by a vast array of changes to EVE Online without complaint. Many changes have been more than welcome. It's BAD change that is opposed. How do you equate the fact that EVE has changed dramatically over the years and yet, I'm still here, with me having a problem with change? I love new things when they add to the game. How does this add to the game? It doesn't. For me, it takes more from it than I can personally adapt to, so I'm leaving. I'm not even opposing it. I know the futility of that and honestly, I can't be bothered anymore. You can have your fairytale themepark wonderland, and I'll go find something else. Something legitimately new.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#88 - 2016-03-08 01:39:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
I like the idea of hide&go boom.


Also

The orbit plane used by the automatic orbit command will no longer change when ship velocity changes.


They are thinking of us.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#89 - 2016-03-08 01:54:03 UTC
Re: wardecs

Wardecs are a major playstyle because of the money in high sec. Wardecs were supposed to allow younger corporations to fight over territory in highsec where stronger players wouldn't bother due to the lack of value. Unfortunately like most half baked ideas this concept of wardecs benefitted older players more who established rackets exploiting their relative power over people they're not even supposed to care about. I'm not going to lower myself to the moral debate - I'm only concerned about wardecs themselves and how highsec has a problem with being a place many players simply don't need to leave.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#90 - 2016-03-08 02:00:15 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Q: How many EVE players does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: CHANGE???????? NNOOOOOOOOOOO


It's becoming my bio.


There are many players that have stood by a vast array of changes to EVE Online without complaint. Many changes have been more than welcome. It's BAD change that is opposed. How do you equate the fact that EVE has changed dramatically over the years and yet, I'm still here, with me having a problem with change? I love new things when they add to the game. How does this add to the game? It doesn't. For me, it takes more from it than I can personally adapt to, so I'm leaving. I'm not even opposing it. I know the futility of that and honestly, I can't be bothered anymore. You can have your fairytale themepark wonderland, and I'll go find something else. Something legitimately new.


Your earlier argument posited the idea that you don't like cooperation necessarily in an MMO. If you choose to go solo without links without scouts and now without a watchlist spoonfeeding you then you implicitly accept the risk of dying when you jump to low.

More importantly without a watchlist the gankers now get the opportunity of kills that watchlisting was previously denying them.

Gate camps are an unbelievably weak form of pvp but since CCP still allow it it will always happen until it no longer becomes viable.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#91 - 2016-03-08 03:54:17 UTC
Since when is "free intel" more OP than being able to suddenly disappear to magical faerie "RL" land without a trace and absolutely no way to confirm whether or not you still exist?

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Valkin Mordirc
#92 - 2016-03-08 04:04:56 UTC
Isaac Armer wrote:
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
For the defender. It removes all knowledge on how they can react. If they don't know if Wartargets are online they will just stay docked up for the week.


If your overview is set up correctly, you can do whatever you want in HS and just run when a wardeccer comes into system. Or just leave HS for a week. No reason to stay docked.

Smitty Uitra wrote:
I agree that the watchlist is free Intel but it's only letting me know if I'm going to actually play Eve today. If I log on and there are no wartargets online then I'm going to go play a different game because I don't have any content today. It's not like the watchlist tells you what system or region of space someone is in. You still have to run locates, send an alt, get eyes on them and still that doesn't guarantee a fight. It all starts with knowing if anyone is online. If that's gone then what's the point of logging in? Let's see I have 600-1000 wartargets. Let me start running locates on someone that may or may not be online send eyes 30 jumps only to not know if the person moved or never was online. I'd almost rather gatecamp lowsec and just kill everything that comes in but CCP will probably do away with that soon too since someone in c&p is crying about that.

The other side is that people on the receiving end of wardecs also use watchlists to make sure no one is hunting them while they are afk mining, running missions\ sites and hauling their crap to hubs. Not all high sec mercs hub camp and sit in the pipe all day. Some mercs look down at that because we like the thrill of the hunt.


Sorry for the rant. Just my $.02


Leave HS and you will get your fights.




Not to sound like a ****, But if a mechanic changes and the optimal solution is to give up something you've been doing for years.


It's not that great of an option. 
#DeleteTheWeak
Jane Airr
Strategic Isks Investments Corporation
#93 - 2016-03-08 04:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Jane Airr
CCP keeps doing well at changing something been here for years without any major doubts.

And in the meantime keeps ignore thise which require emergency attention.

I hope those ex-playa such rise and fozzie got kicked soon out off the sinking boat since these individuals looks too" heavy" to carry with.
Ben Fenix
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#94 - 2016-03-08 05:07:01 UTC
Thank you CCP.

To much free intel.

#Soup
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#95 - 2016-03-08 05:50:48 UTC
Corvald Tyrska wrote:
Droidster wrote:
IIf the pvp balance were less extreme, I think people would be concerned about the watchlist issue a lot less, but as things are the let's-kill-every-autopilot and wardec every single 3-player corp in EVE mentality is driving people away from the game. Its at the point where there are more wolves than there are elk.


Whoa, whoa, whoa. You mean there is PVP content going on in hisec. I've been in a 3 player corp with my alts for years. How do I get these "people" to wardec me? Is there a form I have to fill out or something?


Just look like a squishy target. They'll come flooding!

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#96 - 2016-03-08 13:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kuetlzelcoatl wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
...
If this is a real change coming, then it looks like I'm done with this game...



If only I had isk for every time someone has said something like this because of a change they don't like.

I would have to never RAT again.



This isn't just a change I don't like, it's a change that makes the game unplayable for me. Despite having explained this in clear and concise terminology above, you still managed to skip over it for the one sentence you consider suitable material for trolling and/or ridicule. Say what you want, I just read the patch notes myself to confirm, and my sub now ends permanently on the 30th. If it doesn't change, my toons will be biomassed the day before that date comes.

You think I'm just saying this, don't you? And I don't intend to carry it out? I have a thousand other games to play and in fact, I've been playing more fallout, xcom and elite lately than I have been playing EVE, mostly because I kinda saw the direction EVE was going and decided I might need to ween myself off my attachment to it. See, I love EVE, no other game even comes close. Even with this change, it's still one of the greatest games around. I still feel an attachment to it, an emotional bond to the effort and money that I've poured into it, the good times I've shared with great friends. This has been my greatest gaming experience ever.

But with this change, it's unplayable for me. It's virtually impossible for me to function effectively as a solo pvp'er without the ability to know when certain blobbers/gate campers are online. This limits me to internal rvb activities only, and always working with other people, which I don't always like to do.y

Let me put this in simpler terms: this makes the game no longer for me. When someone whines about the game, and say "change it", I'm one of the first people to say, "it's not for you then, don't play it". Why would I not have that same expectation of myself? That would be hypocritical. This isn't a threat to CCP, because I'm more than aware of the fact that one unsub of one account will make little difference to their bottom line. I can project, based on my own mindset, that I won't be the only one that this change kills the game for, but at the end of the day, I can only speak for myself, which is what I'm doing.



It'll be sad to see you go, and disappointing if you quit without even trying to adapt.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
ACESsiggy
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#97 - 2016-03-08 14:17:06 UTC
Watchlist is sketchy. It should of been a friend invites from the start *imo*

“The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.”
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#98 - 2016-03-08 14:58:11 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Q: How many EVE players does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: CHANGE???????? NNOOOOOOOOOOO


It's becoming my bio.


There are many players that have stood by a vast array of changes to EVE Online without complaint. Many changes have been more than welcome. It's BAD change that is opposed. How do you equate the fact that EVE has changed dramatically over the years and yet, I'm still here, with me having a problem with change? I love new things when they add to the game. How does this add to the game? It doesn't. For me, it takes more from it than I can personally adapt to, so I'm leaving. I'm not even opposing it. I know the futility of that and honestly, I can't be bothered anymore. You can have your fairytale themepark wonderland, and I'll go find something else. Something legitimately new.


Your earlier argument posited the idea that you don't like cooperation necessarily in an MMO. If you choose to go solo without links without scouts and now without a watchlist spoonfeeding you then you implicitly accept the risk of dying when you jump to low.

More importantly without a watchlist the gankers now get the opportunity of kills that watchlisting was previously denying them.

Gate camps are an unbelievably weak form of pvp but since CCP still allow it it will always happen until it no longer becomes viable.


I've never understood this line of thinking.
So apparently I need 4 accounts to play the game now? I need to have my main sitting in station, a scout pushing ahead, links alt follow behind, and the obligatory JF alt docked up somewhere else? What?

Watchlist isn't denying kills. It's providing a single piece of information: you're online. Much the same way local chat provides a single piece of information: you're in system. That information is nice but doesn't answer the important questions like where are you.
You can be online and sitting afk in station for all we know. You could be doing missions halfway across the region. You could be hunting me down. If anything, watchlist was denying kills under 2 situations:
1) You come online and they immediately sit in station until you log off. These types of people will usually stay in station when they get wardec'd anyway
2) You're very unoriginal and patrol the same routes through the same system and are thus easy to avoid

I think it's ironic that so many people are suddenly jumping on the "remove the watchlist" bandwagon when they were never vocal about it before. I like the idea of the watchlist for the same reason I (sort of) like the idea of local chat: It's only giving you 1 piece of information.
Xantia Naari
Serious About Space Things..
#99 - 2016-03-08 15:12:04 UTC
I am all for this change, so I'm gonna say good job CCP!Big smile

This will hurt griefers the most.

I don't know if I'm on anyones watchlist but I do alot of exploring and have been caught a few times with a lot of relic loot in my cargo so I would not be surpriced if some who specialize in hunting explorers have me on their watch list. However, I have some of them on my watchlist so that is the only thing that will hurt me after the change. It's nice to know if I need to be extra careful when hacking relic sites in null sec.

I'm all for this change but I wish their could be some exeptions to it.

For example, characters with a standing that make them criminals should be adable without concent. Characters that have podded you should also be adable without concent.

Keep up the good work CCP

There are two kinds of children that play in sandboxes. Those who build castles and those who kick them down. It's a symbiosis.
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2016-03-08 15:18:33 UTC
Xantia Naari wrote:
For example, characters with a standing that make them criminals should be adable without concent. Characters that have podded you should also be adable without concent.


You know pirates have feelings too! Sad

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*