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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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potential* update to capital jumps

Author
Jin Latte
War Eagle Fleet
Solyaris Chtonium
#1 - 2016-03-07 05:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin Latte
NOTE: This is NOT about how the current capital navigation state is terrible, just how it could be improved without breaking the current mechanics.

NOTE: These numbers are open to change and discussion as well as the entire post... I want to improve capital navigation without breaking it....

Alright, so clear cut as the title say I would like to discuss the state of capital navigation and how it could be improved. Currently, if you want to move your capital [we will use a carrier for example in this case] you have to deal with jump fatigue (jump fat) which is not so bad.

Jump fatigue:
• Forces you to think in a more strategic way and prepare ahead of time for even small movements.
• makes it so all [combat] capitals have the same max jump range
• Gives smaller entities a chance to exist without being annihilated by a capital fleet without semi-adequate time.
• Increases the use of sub-capital hulls for combat scenarios making battleships being seen more often than titans (exaggerated I know but not by much)

the list goes on: but it also removes a fair few points from the game.

• It is easier to sell a carrier and buy one not ten gates from where you are to save time and effort.
• it reduces the amount of use for capitals, super carriers and titans have issues making it to fights at all (yes I know that is the point of jump fat...will come back to this one later)
• Has halted almost all major warfare in null outside of defense which has made it arguably more stagnant than it was pre-phoebe.

and again the list goes on... BUT it could be better.


I for one, love to use capitals, I don't want to spend weeks building them or have people spend years training them....or as of late, tons upon tons of billions to get sp for them. to have a ship that is almost never used because it is so annoying to get it in and eve MORE annoying to get it out. I have contemplated many ways to fix or solve this.

1) increase range of all capitals back to their old range BUT keep the jump fat ... this would be great except the range modifier would still be in play so arguably just as annoying, if not more. but it would better the chance of capitals being able to be used. That alone would at least be better as you would STILL have to deal with getting it out, and jumping further would give the hostiles more time.

good but, could be better.

2) having multiple modes [ like the tactical destroyer ] travel and combat mode for example, only unlike the new destroyers for a much longer period, 12-24 hours. Once you switch into these modes you would have a timer not on your character but on the ship, allowing you to move more caps into place but still limiting said capitals use.

Example: you want to move a carrier from say M-0 to say HED-GP at level 5 jump drive calibration you would have 13 jumps, assuming you did this with minimal jump fat it would take at least 13 hours... as a minimum if not longer due to jump fat, camps or what have you...

• To counter this you switch into travel mode. cut 13 jumps into say, 4-8 jumps.... yes it is a lot BUT in travel mode you yourself could not engage in combat, or use any kind of defensive or offensive modules/drones until the timer was up and you could go back to combat mode. However you could still be engaged by others making you far more vulnerable.

• Adversely without engaging travel mode you would have to use 1.5 times the fuel or another cut from the jump range since navigational mode would increase jump range... this allowing you to get into combat but at more cost: whilst making moving capitals more viable. Or perhaps, no change from it's current state as it is already fairly limiting in engaging in combat.

don't even get me started on massive move ops and how long they can take because of tidi from the amount of things on grid at any one time for so long.

All in All this would make navigation easier and faster without breaking it, hunters and defenders would have a wide open time to hit them and prepare without threat of engagement from capitals while open to use theirs to engage those moving... As well as increasing their combat and breaking the somewhat stale pvp and ending the constant stress of moving capitals.... I am looking at you PL with your titan move ops and sh*t...

Tell me what you think or tell me that I am off my rocker and Grr Goon and what have you, either way.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2016-03-08 00:35:19 UTC
So all you want is your jump range back, and the ability to suitcase ships all across EVE, so that you can easily move fleets around and stage invasions, just the only thing you can't do is travel quickly and then drop on someone at the end of it. Well ok, that sounds fine and dandy. Well not really.

Force projection was a problem you know, not just carrier blobs surprise landing on the target. Allowing groups to quickly move dread fleets and suitcase fleets across the map again is a large reversal of that.

Not supported.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-03-08 00:51:17 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
So all you want is your jump range back, and the ability to suitcase ships all across EVE, so that you can easily move fleets around and stage invasions, just the only thing you can't do is travel quickly and then drop on someone at the end of it. Well ok, that sounds fine and dandy. Well not really.

Force projection was a problem you know, not just carrier blobs surprise landing on the target. Allowing groups to quickly move dread fleets and suitcase fleets across the map again is a large reversal of that.

Not supported.


wait your telling me that just being able to move large amounts of capital and sub capital assets in a short amount of time is a huge advantage?
Jin Latte
War Eagle Fleet
Solyaris Chtonium
#4 - 2016-03-08 02:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jin Latte
Anhenka wrote:
So all you want is your jump range back, and the ability to suitcase ships all across EVE, so that you can easily move fleets around and stage invasions, just the only thing you can't do is travel quickly and then drop on someone at the end of it. Well ok, that sounds fine and dandy. Well not really.

Force projection was a problem you know, not just carrier blobs surprise landing on the target. Allowing groups to quickly move dread fleets and suitcase fleets across the map again is a large reversal of that.

Not supported.


I know that force projection was a problem and that it was not 100% carriers or capitals at all, but force projection end of story. Naturally their could be some form of change to suitcase that kind of stuff however yes, being able to travel quickly again even with having to hold off on combat for X amount of time and being 100% vulnerable to attack. maybe even remove all hull static resistance in travel mode as well, just anything really that would allow us to move, even without combat in mind just moving in general.

*edit

yes, being able to move dreads/carriers across eve faster again would be a reversal of that, but that is why they would have the 24 hour timer of no active or passive modules combat or otherwise for that capital and with no resistance as well, YES they would be able to project their power but at a HUGE risk.
Jin Latte
War Eagle Fleet
Solyaris Chtonium
#5 - 2016-03-08 02:06:09 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
So all you want is your jump range back, and the ability to suitcase ships all across EVE, so that you can easily move fleets around and stage invasions, just the only thing you can't do is travel quickly and then drop on someone at the end of it. Well ok, that sounds fine and dandy. Well not really.

Force projection was a problem you know, not just carrier blobs surprise landing on the target. Allowing groups to quickly move dread fleets and suitcase fleets across the map again is a large reversal of that.

Not supported.


wait your telling me that just being able to move large amounts of capital and sub capital assets in a short amount of time is a huge advantage?



He is not 100% wrong, it would be an advantage yes, but as I stated there would be very clear risks to doing this as to make sure that it was not overpowered like times of old, Being able to move around without having to spend your entire day awake at the keyboard as people have jobs, kids and families [hard to believe right?] as well and while I personally LOVE eve and CCP and would spend as much time here as I can, I do want to play the game when I finish, and if I spend 13 hours making 1 trip out of many on a deployment... I still would not have got to do any combat or take part in any game and so making the travel mode highly reduce jump fat or take it away entirely in that mode I feel would make up for it as 12 hours* 2-4 times over.... like Hell would I even want to deploy even if we were told to.

Again though, even to this model there should be changes of course which is why I posted in the first place :)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2016-03-08 02:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Jin Latte wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
So all you want is your jump range back, and the ability to suitcase ships all across EVE, so that you can easily move fleets around and stage invasions, just the only thing you can't do is travel quickly and then drop on someone at the end of it. Well ok, that sounds fine and dandy. Well not really.

Force projection was a problem you know, not just carrier blobs surprise landing on the target. Allowing groups to quickly move dread fleets and suitcase fleets across the map again is a large reversal of that.

Not supported.


I know that force projection was a problem and that it was not 100% carriers or capitals at all, but force projection end of story. Naturally their could be some form of change to suitcase that kind of stuff however yes, being able to travel quickly again even with having to hold off on combat for X amount of time and being 100% vulnerable to attack. maybe even remove all hull static resistance in travel mode as well, just anything really that would allow us to move, even without combat in mind just moving in general.


With a return to 10au LY jump travel, you could have negative -100% resists on shield, armor, and hull while in travel mode, and it wouldn't matter because large groups would just go stations to station, just like we do with defenseless jump freighters.

Not being able to launch fighters doesn't matter, because you don't use them while traveling. Losing your resists doesn't matter cause you don't use them while traveling. Literally nothing matters while purely traveling except jump range, fuel consumption, and fatigue cooldown.

You travel to where you want to be, you switch modes, and then you fight. Maybe you need to wait 12-24 hours to swap mods back. Maybe you even lock the ships in the SMA for that period of time (lol, whut?)

It does nothing to deter a large group from loading up all their ships into their SMAs on their dreads and carriers, traveling station to station across EVE, and then starting their campaign 24 hours later once the mode is back in combat configuration.
Leto Aramaus
Black Fox Marauders
Pen Is Out
#7 - 2016-03-08 02:26:52 UTC
obligatory 'working as intended'.

Make New Eden large again.
Jin Latte
War Eagle Fleet
Solyaris Chtonium
#8 - 2016-03-08 04:19:50 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Jin Latte wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
So all you want is your jump range back, and the ability to suitcase ships all across EVE, so that you can easily move fleets around and stage invasions, just the only thing you can't do is travel quickly and then drop on someone at the end of it. Well ok, that sounds fine and dandy. Well not really.

Force projection was a problem you know, not just carrier blobs surprise landing on the target. Allowing groups to quickly move dread fleets and suitcase fleets across the map again is a large reversal of that.

Not supported.


I know that force projection was a problem and that it was not 100% carriers or capitals at all, but force projection end of story. Naturally their could be some form of change to suitcase that kind of stuff however yes, being able to travel quickly again even with having to hold off on combat for X amount of time and being 100% vulnerable to attack. maybe even remove all hull static resistance in travel mode as well, just anything really that would allow us to move, even without combat in mind just moving in general.


With a return to 10au LY jump travel, you could have negative -100% resists on shield, armor, and hull while in travel mode, and it wouldn't matter because large groups would just go stations to station, just like we do with defenseless jump freighters.

Not being able to launch fighters doesn't matter, because you don't use them while traveling. Losing your resists doesn't matter cause you don't use them while traveling. Literally nothing matters while purely traveling except jump range, fuel consumption, and fatigue cooldown.

You travel to where you want to be, you switch modes, and then you fight. Maybe you need to wait 12-24 hours to swap mods back. Maybe you even lock the ships in the SMA for that period of time (lol, whut?)

It does nothing to deter a large group from loading up all their ships into their SMAs on their dreads and carriers, traveling station to station across EVE, and then starting their campaign 24 hours later once the mode is back in combat configuration.



No, they could move their ships and store whatever they wanted, but station to station when going into a almost any major region would not be plausible... you cannot dock at hostile stations? for lowsec, perhaps, but again that is why they would be supremely vulnerable during this time and do remember NOT everyone is part of a major entity. No, you do not use your resists while traveling but if caught it makes it easier to be destroyed, and do not tell me it is hard to catch a capital we see their loss mails near daily at the moment while solo. and no, it would not stop them from holding off their campaign by 24 hours but again adequate time and what have you.

If you want to talk about being risk averse than just look at how you are denying this because it would bring about fights. and even than like I said this is open to change, and you are not providing any real feedback at all. I will stop replying to your posts unless they provide constructive points to this post.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-03-08 04:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Jin Latte wrote:

No, they could move their ships and store whatever they wanted, but station to station when going into a almost any major region would not be plausible... you cannot dock at hostile stations? for lowsec, perhaps, but again that is why they would be supremely vulnerable during this time and do remember NOT everyone is part of a major entity. No, you do not use your resists while traveling but if caught it makes it easier to be destroyed, and do not tell me it is hard to catch a capital we see their loss mails near daily at the moment while solo. and no, it would not stop them from holding off their campaign by 24 hours but again adequate time and what have you.

If you want to talk about being risk averse than just look at how you are denying this because it would bring about fights. and even than like I said this is open to change, and you are not providing any real feedback at all. I will stop replying to your posts unless they provide constructive points to this post.


I'm telling you flat out, that you can travel station to station from one side of EVE, to a viable staging system on the other side, to invade any region in the game, using a 10LY jump range, without exposing your capitals to any risk whatsoever. Btw, basically every major invasion of someones space starts with staging out of a lowsec near their region or NPC station in their region.

You jump, you dock. You undock, and before the undocking invuln timer expires, you jump again, you dock. No risk. Pick the right stations and you can even have a bad jump, bounce off at 2km/sec, and still dock because the docking radius is massive. I routinely jump JF's, which are basically giant expensive boxes that die when you look at them funny, into very hostile lowsecs on a near daily basis. I lose all my cyno Ibises, but my caps are untouchable.

You can do this with one character an an alt. you can do it in a massive blob. You can do it anywhere in between.

People die in caps doing stupid stuff every day. Very few, if any, are a result of a pilot traveling, because you can cyno a JF or other cap onto a station surrounded by 100 sensor boosted Ragnarocks and be perfectly safe, because of session timers.

You claim it will create fights. It wont, because traveling caps are safe unless complete idiots.

You claim it won't enable force projection, but then say that it will enable them to move across the map, but a 24 hour delay after that before starting a major campaign makes it all better.

You claim I'm not giving you feedback. I am. The feedback is that your idea is self entitled wishing that you didn't have to deal with the now limited jump distance or fatigue, and that you want to change the mechanics to gut the parts you don't like, while keeping the part that inconvenienced everyone else.

My feedback is not constructive, because when an idea is bad enough, the only way to improve is by leveling it and starting over.
Jin Latte
War Eagle Fleet
Solyaris Chtonium
#10 - 2016-03-08 05:23:32 UTC
Finally some feedback from you... -_-

Yes, you can travel and dock up and with a 10ly distance you can do so.Yes I claim it will create fights, and no this is NOT coming from just myself; any and every capital pilot I have talked to, of which there are a fair few, have agreed to some extent that this would be better. NO this is not in any way what it should be and I am looking for way to THEORY craft to improve it without breaking it. Personally, I love the jump fat, it has caused capital pilots issues, and made us think however it can be improved from what it is.... which is once again WHY I posted this. I honestly do not care if all this gets scrapped and something else comes to play so long as it is an improvement to the system that currently exists and not breaking it.

I did not claim it would not enable force projection, I in fact agreed that it would but would give people plenty of time/some form of chance to catch them or prepare flat out. Nothing in eve is save. Force projection was why they came out with it in the first place.

Once again with the blobs, not everybody flies in massive cap move ops and not everybody flies with major entities, this in theory could also help new entities claim sov without being in a boarder zone and being able to strike deep into an empires territory. this is not one sided it would effect everybody.... what they do with that is up to them, otherwise it is not a sandbox.

traveling or otherwise, when a capital presently logs on (yes I know buddy system change and what not to your watchlist) they are vulnerable enough to catch and kill. Regardless of what you are doing in a capital presently you have a chance to die and that is the point of them honestly.

but I will say it once again as I have before. NO this version I theory crafted is not perfect which is why I posted it so I could get constructive feedback on just thoughts on it, or how to improve it.... o0r flat out that the current system is alright and that there is no need for change. I have not once in this thread claimed that this version would be perfect, just better- once the numbers/buffs/nerfs were worked out in some form of a way or have it be scrapped all together.