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Falcons still outragouslly overpowered
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Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#21 - 2016-02-26 18:04:14 UTC
"Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum
Loradan Illstari
Illstari Industries
#22 - 2016-02-26 19:09:47 UTC
The problems with ECM stem from ECM itself, not the ships wielding it. I'd say the Scorpion is way more OP than the Falcon because of the range it can project its jamming, which is far greater. The Falcon actually has to place itself in harms way. The Scorpion only has to worry about getting MJDed on, which it can just as easily MJD away from.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#23 - 2016-03-01 05:10:38 UTC
Why do I never see scorpions anywhere.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2016-03-01 08:45:58 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
numbers and stuff
All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?

Your analysis is missing the point.

Being out of the fight for 20s or more because someone pressed a button and the game decided that this one button press deserves leniency.

Damps can be countered through pilot input.
So can tracking disruptors.
TPs are barely relevant and don't actually disrupt a ship's ability to counterattack.

Whether or not you fit ECCM the ECM game is still a statistic outside of your control no matter what input you make.

Your entire argument appeals to the law of averages.
I suppose if a Rifter had 1% chance to fire a doomsday that would be balanced as well?


So get some friends and jam the Jammer or damp him, Destroy his ship or neut him. There are so many ways to deal with jammers, be creative and don´t cry in the forum.

-1
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2016-03-01 16:42:03 UTC
If it really was OP, it would get more solo kill than losses...

What make the Falcon seem OP is because every time you face it, you are stuck in a Xv1 where X is 2+.

Seriously, look at zkill and look at all of the solo kills by falcons. It's never used by itself. Now the real question. If that Xv1 you lost to a falcon'd team was not including a falcon but something else, how often would you really have won?
Loradan Illstari
Illstari Industries
#26 - 2016-03-01 17:17:35 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Why do I never see scorpions anywhere.


Obvious answer, because you aren't looking. I see Scorpions way more than I see Falcons.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2016-03-05 07:06:43 UTC
So. Another Whaaaaaa ECMMMMM thread? Lulz and popcorn abound.

Let me propose a few counters here.

- Drones. Especially on aggressive, they will go after that Falcon. (HMHM!! Smartbomb!! Yeah, a couple of cycles till he caps out.) Drone assists on buddies who are not jammed also work.

- Snipers. Jammers are easy to blap off the field and their jams aren't as effective. Range is your friend here. There's three kinds of falcons: active XLASB, armour falcons and no-tank falcons. How many shots do you need to put in one before it dies?

- getting a lucky dice. Contrary to popular belief, Falcons do not permajam. Unless you have poor skills, no eccm and a small T1 ship. Many ships however do have reasonable sensor strength.

- ECCM (the simple fact YOU don't fit them probably means they're okay ahaha)

- Damps. The Falcon that cannot target you, cannot jam you (or anyone else for that matter). Besides, a Falcon's scanres is very poor so your Maulus or LOLKitsune can jam/damp him first.

- a fleet of same-race ships. People will often fly Rainbow because, let's face it, multispecs on a Falcon don't work really well. You'd need three or four multispecs to net the same result as a racial jammer, meaning the rainbow can jam more for less. Unless of course the enemy brings all Amarr ships; then you have 1 good jammer and 3 very poor longshots.

- if jammed, then pull out of disruptor range and GTFO? They're quite slow you know.



Seems to me whining is easier than honing your skills. This is not how you get anything done. Best advice I can give you: buy a Falcon (griffin, navy griffin, kitsune, rook, blackbird, ... whatever your poison). Fly it. Tell me how roflstomp powerful you feel. Try it and please report how many HACs or Legions or Guardians you permajammed with it.

Or did the mean T2 EWAR ship perhaps jam your poor Atron? Yeah. That was to be expected. Try to think in the same league here. Brokk out. Fly safe and all that.
FireFrenzy
Cynosural Samurai
#28 - 2016-03-05 08:30:13 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
Petrified wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
Being constantly perma jammed with not a single chance at all in a fight to lock or do anything is ridiculous. these are just stupidly over powered. its needs sorting now.

Odd, it is my personal experience that they are under-powered. Then again, in games of chance, I tend to roll snake eyes all the time.

There are several easy counters to ECM: ECCM (soon to be unified into sensor boosters with scripts which will make ECM even harder to apply), FoF Missiles, Drones, smart bombs, and friends. Friends are good to have.


stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL.. there is no gane of chance because it never happens. never...in all my years of playing i have never not seen falcons perma jamming. its been a issue for years and its just stupid. and im really not interested in some massive post about ewar when everyobe blantly knows ewar is vastly overpowered


Every single docterine fit i have ever flown fitted atleast one more commonly two eccm modules... Granted my corp flies spider tanked stuff alot but every single one has fitted some eccm module...
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2016-03-06 08:21:30 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers
Version 1.0.3 10/21/13
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.



If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.

Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?


This ^ is awesome.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#30 - 2016-03-06 16:56:45 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Fail PVPer get ship blown up because he was jammed. Comes to forums to whine. Film at 11.


lol you gotta love the attention seeking trolls


LOL! Gotta love it when a person doesn't have the sense to de-aggress and burn back to gate, and jump.


This is why I'm not a fan of using jams or sensor damps on gates. I prefer to use tracking disruptors because when you jam someone, that encourages them to deagress as soon as you jam them. In fact, unless they had already launched drones, it deagresses for them. While tracking disruptors only make ttheir guns miss all the time, so it keeps them in the fight for at least another couple seconds.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#31 - 2016-03-06 17:18:38 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL

ECCM is getting combined with sensor boosters soon. Switching ECCM on is as easy as switching scripts in your se-bo.
Keno Skir
#32 - 2016-03-06 21:08:24 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
Petrified wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
Being constantly perma jammed with not a single chance at all in a fight to lock or do anything is ridiculous. these are just stupidly over powered. its needs sorting now.

Odd, it is my personal experience that they are under-powered. Then again, in games of chance, I tend to roll snake eyes all the time.

There are several easy counters to ECM: ECCM (soon to be unified into sensor boosters with scripts which will make ECM even harder to apply), FoF Missiles, Drones, smart bombs, and friends. Friends are good to have.


stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL.. there is no gane of chance because it never happens. never...in all my years of playing i have never not seen falcons perma jamming. its been a issue for years and its just stupid. and im really not interested in some massive post about ewar when everyobe blantly knows ewar is vastly overpowered


Pshh. Put the toys back in the pram.

If it was a big enough problem, people would fit ECCM. The fact nobody does says a lot about this matter. Sometimes, when faced with a t2 role specific ECM ship, you will be unable to target (surprise surprise). If it gets too bad, fit some counters.

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2016-03-10 15:36:20 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
So. Another Whaaaaaa ECMMMMM thread? Lulz and popcorn abound.

Let me propose a few counters here.

- Drones. Especially on aggressive, they will go after that Falcon. (HMHM!! Smartbomb!! Yeah, a couple of cycles till he caps out.) Drone assists on buddies who are not jammed also work.

- Snipers. Jammers are easy to blap off the field and their jams aren't as effective. Range is your friend here. There's three kinds of falcons: active XLASB, armour falcons and no-tank falcons. How many shots do you need to put in one before it dies?

- getting a lucky dice. Contrary to popular belief, Falcons do not permajam. Unless you have poor skills, no eccm and a small T1 ship. Many ships however do have reasonable sensor strength.

- ECCM (the simple fact YOU don't fit them probably means they're okay ahaha)

- Damps. The Falcon that cannot target you, cannot jam you (or anyone else for that matter). Besides, a Falcon's scanres is very poor so your Maulus or LOLKitsune can jam/damp him first.

- a fleet of same-race ships. People will often fly Rainbow because, let's face it, multispecs on a Falcon don't work really well. You'd need three or four multispecs to net the same result as a racial jammer, meaning the rainbow can jam more for less. Unless of course the enemy brings all Amarr ships; then you have 1 good jammer and 3 very poor longshots.

- if jammed, then pull out of disruptor range and GTFO? They're quite slow you know.



Seems to me whining is easier than honing your skills. This is not how you get anything done. Best advice I can give you: buy a Falcon (griffin, navy griffin, kitsune, rook, blackbird, ... whatever your poison). Fly it. Tell me how roflstomp powerful you feel. Try it and please report how many HACs or Legions or Guardians you permajammed with it.

Or did the mean T2 EWAR ship perhaps jam your poor Atron? Yeah. That was to be expected. Try to think in the same league here. Brokk out. Fly safe and all that.


I have to say you actually havent a clue this isnt about soloing a falcon dumbass.

let me answer youre completely dumb (trying to be funny and failing) comments

Now lets go in the scenario that its a falcon & another ship that would usually have a web and scram OK..

Your points and ill try be nice...actually no i wont seeing you didnt offer the same courtesy

Drones. Especially on aggressive, they will go after that Falcon. (HMHM!! Smartbomb!! Yeah, a couple of cycles till he caps out.) Drone assists on buddies who are not jammed also work.
no not really buddy kills your drones so does falcon with smarties included, and what if you not carrying drones ie not in a drone boat. So not a valid argument

- Snipers. Jammers are easy to blap off the field and their jams aren't as effective. Range is your friend here. There's three kinds of falcons: active XLASB, armour falcons and no-tank falcons. How many shots do you need to put in one before it dies?

Im solo, not in a sniper! jeez Just wow with that one. and actually falcons do still have quite significant range anyway.

- getting a lucky dice. Contrary to popular belief, Falcons do not permajam. Unless you have poor skills, no eccm and a small T1 ship. Many ships however do have reasonable sensor strength.
Yes they do permajam, Yes they do

- ECCM (the simple fact YOU don't fit them probably means they're okay ahaha)
NO ONE friggin fits ECCM EVER in a normal pvp fitted ship EVER!!

- Damps. The Falcon that cannot target you, cannot jam you (or anyone else for that matter). Besides, a Falcon's scanres is very poor so your Maulus or LOLKitsune can jam/damp him first.
NO ONE fits Damps! Plus youre already jammed so you cant DO ANYTHING, ARE YOU STUPID

- a fleet of same-race ships. People will often fly Rainbow because, let's face it, multispecs on a Falcon don't work really well. You'd need three or four multispecs to net the same result as a racial jammer, meaning the rainbow can jam more for less. Unless of course the enemy brings all Amarr ships; then you have 1 good jammer and 3 very poor longshots.

God dammit im solo..

- if jammed, then pull out of disruptor range and GTFO? They're quite slow you know.
yeah bit hard when your webbed and scrammed....
lilol' me
Comply Or Die
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2016-03-10 15:37:45 UTC
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL

ECCM is getting combined with sensor boosters soon. Switching ECCM on is as easy as switching scripts in your se-bo.

And hopefully that will help, funny why that was added wasnt it, but again not many people fit sensor boosters! I dont think i have fitted on in years, why because no one does on a pvp fitted ship!
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2016-03-10 16:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Brokk Witgenstein
No ECCM. No SeBo. Can I ask ... what do you fit on your ships??


(no troll by the way .... what ARE you using to solo??)

EDIT: Checked your killboard. There's no green on it, anywhere. It's not just Falcons you're struggling with, is it? Please stop refuting good advice and learn.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#36 - 2016-03-10 21:46:15 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
NO ONE fits Damps! Plus youre already jammed so you cant DO ANYTHING, ARE YOU STUPID
Damps are actually the most popular EWar in PvP because they're so much more reliable than ECM. As people have said before, ECM is a dice-roll. They do not perma-jam unless you're incredibly unlucky.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2016-03-10 21:54:40 UTC
5 bucks says she'll rage when you suggest fitting tank, guns, propmod or tackle too. NOBODY USES DAT **** MANG Lol
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#38 - 2016-03-11 00:40:43 UTC
lilol' me wrote:
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
lilol' me wrote:
stop pleaee just stop with that eccm rubbish NOBODY FITS ECCM AND NEVER WILL

ECCM is getting combined with sensor boosters soon. Switching ECCM on is as easy as switching scripts in your se-bo.

And hopefully that will help, funny why that was added wasnt it, but again not many people fit sensor boosters! I dont think i have fitted on in years, why because no one does on a pvp fitted ship!



I think I see the problem here. Everytime you don't do something, you assume no-one else does either. You don't fit ECCM so you state that No-one fits ECCM. You don't fit Damps so you state that No one fits damps. You don't fit sensor boosters so obviously no one else fits sensor boosters.

You're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong. I don't know what you're going to post next, but it's probably wrong too if it follows the same line of thought.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Minerva Arbosa
Spatial Forces
Warped Intentions
#39 - 2016-03-12 04:52:09 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
numbers and stuff
All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?

Your analysis is missing the point.

Being out of the fight for 20s or more because someone pressed a button and the game decided that this one button press deserves leniency.

Damps can be countered through pilot input.
So can tracking disruptors.
TPs are barely relevant and don't actually disrupt a ship's ability to counterattack.

Whether or not you fit ECCM the ECM game is still a statistic outside of your control no matter what input you make.

Your entire argument appeals to the law of averages.
I suppose if a Rifter had 1% chance to fire a doomsday that would be balanced as well?


So would you rather be out of the fight for all of time because my fleet and I put so many sensor dampers on you that you effective lock range is less than 5km, and we are orbiting at 10km with scram web and point? Honestly, ECCM is right where it needs to be.

The entire argument is statistically correct. The formula for ECCM is jam strength / sensor strength x 100%. The other thing you have to remember about the statistics is you could have a 50/50 chance to jam someone pretty easily as a skilled falcon pilot. Then you figure the falcon pilot can have 4-5 jammers, racial or not. These 4-5 jammers each have a 50/50 jam potential.

Now if you look at which ones will hit and which ones won't you could then compare it to TDs or SDs. SDs and TDs always hit as long as in optimal and when in falloff do a reduced amount of disruption. I think the TDs and SDs are far more dangerous and annoying in the hands of a capable pilot than ECM modules are.
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