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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

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Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2016-03-05 08:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


just the implants

if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after

If your jump clone is actually in the same location as your medical clone it's possible to lose them.
But since I saw somewhere in things that CCP were talking about clone swapping in Citadels with no timer it sounds like they are addressing some of the behind the scenes code, so that may no longer occur anyway.
It will also be possible to lose jump clones in Citadels when the Citadel is destroyed.


thats just another reason NOT to use them in a citadel

That's a good point. It would be stupid to store high-value clones in a Citadel for longer than just the swap. For players having more than one expensive clone this will not be feasible.

The only solution for this would be to include inactive jump clones into the asset safety mechanism.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#382 - 2016-03-05 08:40:53 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
That's a good point. It would be stupid to store high-value clones in a Citadel for longer than just the swap. For players having more than one expensive clone this will not be feasible.

The only solution for this would be to include inactive jump clones into the asset safety mechanism.

Which won't work, because it could mean that your clone would be safety'd into a station you already have a clone in. You go to jump in, server crashes because the code currently can't handle that.

The whole jump-clone tax is erecting another obstacle between players and the sandbox. It's needless, it's petty, and counter-intuitive. Some of CCP's best work recently was removing obstacles to content, not constructing more. Who can pay it and who can't, really doesn't matter. It's completely unnecessary anyway since nobody is going to be incentivized to build a seven-billion isk structure and defend it against wardecs just to save five million on the occasional jump.

Get rid of the notion that taxing jump clones, by any amount, is a good idea. In the best case scenario it accomplishes nothing, and in the worst case scenario it dis-incentivizes people from using the service which is currently still a cornerstone of EvE, which will have negative trickle-down effects on the rest of the game.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#383 - 2016-03-05 08:53:35 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:

Which won't work, because it could mean that your clone would be safety'd into a station you already have a clone in. You go to jump in, server crashes because the code currently can't handle that.

They could of course just fix that piece of code to handle it and then it would work. But it's certainly an issue one way or another.
motie one
Secret Passage
#384 - 2016-03-05 09:18:22 UTC  |  Edited by: motie one
I have been watching how this plays out on twitter reddit and here.
I feel terribly sorry for the poor devs having to handle this. The comments from them seem at this point to be around finding a way to make people abandon NPC stations and force players into Citadels, with the least amount of pain while still forcing people.
A nightmare task.

This reeks of a manager having given instructions, and the devs trying to comply without destroying everything they have worked towards.

This is a complete betrayal of CCP's vision to engage players and I think the quote was "to surprise and delight"?

I hope the devs FULLY DOCUMENT, where this idea came from and who commanded this destructive path.

Because when CCP Seagull sees that her Roadmap has been completely compromised, and set back for at least a year, not counting the reaction and feelings of the playerbase, that will need to be un-buggered, someone will be looking for a new career, where driving your customers at the point of a whip is acceptable.

Managing a customer dependent game environment is clearly not one of their skills.

So get Back to CCP Seagulls vision, encourage behavioural changes by making Citadels, better than stations, not by making the rest of space downright painful and unpleasant to live in.

And someone needs to have a career counselling chat with personnel.

+1 to support CCP Seagull's, and the devs original vision to "surprise and delight".
"if you build it and it is good, they will come" ,
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#385 - 2016-03-05 09:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaivar Lancer
Suppose we forget in trying to motivate traders to move into citadels. What about customers? What incentive do customers have in basing themselves in a citadel vs an NPC station? As it stands, it's much more convenient to base yourself in an NPC station. NPC stations have agents, can't be blown up and can't have docking rights revoked. If someone buys from a citadel, chances are they'll buy what they need, and any excess will be couriered it over to an NPC station for safety and convenience.

My trade slots are precious. Am I going to use my precious trade slots in a citadel with a smattering of pilots? Or am I going to sell in an NPC station where 90% of my customers are huddled? I will definitely choose the latter. However, the higher NPC fees are just going to inconvenience everyone.

Inconvenience = less fun.
Niko Zino
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#386 - 2016-03-05 10:19:01 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Niko Zino wrote:


Undocking and getting podded works as well. You will end up in your medclone for sure, but if you undock in a clone that was in a different spot, you effectively loose a clone.


just the implants

if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after


Now that's a trollish / pedantic answer. You have a reason to have another clone. It's in a different part of space, or it has specific implants. When you loose the pod, you loose both of these things that carried the need for a JC in the first place.

So, effectively (and I quote myself) you loose a JC. Maybe not technically, yes.

CAS, the NPC Corp that Does Stuff™
Queen of Rocks
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2016-03-05 11:22:46 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.


I expect most Cloning Bays will be installed in NullSec citadels (and WH), and allowing the owner to charge a modest fee for their use makes sense. The convenience of having a jump clone and ships/equipment in the same location will make most users happy to pay the fee. (Including myself as I mostly use jump clones to access my PI planets.)

However there is nothing wrong with maintaining the status quo in Empire for a bit longer. I don't see player setting up massive networks of Clone Bay Citadels for profit, and neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.

Of course, once Citadels (and new markets) have been established and players are more comfortable with them it would be easy to revisit the issue and see whether a NPC tax makes sense.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#388 - 2016-03-05 11:38:50 UTC
Queen of Rocks wrote:

However there is nothing wrong with maintaining the status quo in Empire for a bit longer. I don't see player setting up massive networks of Clone Bay Citadels for profit, and neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.


It's not even that. If a citadel owner decides to leave Eve and his citadel runs out of fuel, the clone bay and market hub goes kaput.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#389 - 2016-03-05 12:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Niko Zino wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Niko Zino wrote:


Undocking and getting podded works as well. You will end up in your medclone for sure, but if you undock in a clone that was in a different spot, you effectively loose a clone.


just the implants

if you had 6 clones b4 you were podded you have 6 after


Now that's a trollish / pedantic answer. You have a reason to have another clone. It's in a different part of space, or it has specific implants. When you loose the pod, you loose both of these things that carried the need for a JC in the first place.

So, effectively (and I quote myself) you loose a JC. Maybe not technically, yes.



But you would never have to re buy one and that's the issue woth just a having an initial cost

EDIT

Now with all this I don't think there should be a raised cost at all for jc because I don't think there needs to be an incentive to add a clone bay

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#390 - 2016-03-05 13:15:35 UTC
Queen of Rocks wrote:
neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.


This, the only high sec clones I have exist in high sec BECAUSE of the safety. If you think I'm putting them in places where they can be destroyed whilst I'm extended afk and not even using them, then you are huffing bleach.

I'm pretty sure we all have that "vacation clone"
Lugh Crow-Slave
#391 - 2016-03-05 13:34:00 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Queen of Rocks wrote:
neither would I be quick to entrust my jump clones to a citadel that can be destroyed for lulz or taken down by the owner because he got bored with it.


This, the only high sec clones I have exist in high sec BECAUSE of the safety. If you think I'm putting them in places where they can be destroyed whilst I'm extended afk and not even using them, then you are huffing bleach.

I'm pretty sure we all have that "vacation clone"


Then you just have to pay 5 mil to store that clone

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#392 - 2016-03-05 13:36:52 UTC
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#393 - 2016-03-05 14:02:17 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.


But your going to need better points or it just hurts the argument

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#394 - 2016-03-05 14:14:25 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.


But your going to need better points or it just hurts the argument

There are 20 pages of reasons why the tax and clone cost are bad. If they really need more reasons after that, there's something wrong.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#395 - 2016-03-05 14:20:18 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.


But your going to need better points or it just hurts the argument

There are 20 pages of reasons why the tax and clone cost are bad. If they really need more reasons after that, there's something wrong.


The clone yes the market tax arguments generally come down to people feeling preemptively jealous of who ever is gong to hold valuable market citadels or that a new isk sink is opening up affecting them

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#396 - 2016-03-05 14:35:12 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.


But your going to need better points or it just hurts the argument

There are 20 pages of reasons why the tax and clone cost are bad. If they really need more reasons after that, there's something wrong.


The clone yes the market tax arguments generally come down to people feeling preemptively jealous of who ever is gong to hold valuable market citadels or that a new isk sink is opening up affecting them

Ok, then you must have read something much different than I did. To me it seems like the response to increasing taxes is people explaining how that won't move people into citadels because of risk, while destroying the station trading profession and making it harder to get stuff.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#397 - 2016-03-05 14:39:20 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.


But your going to need better points or it just hurts the argument

There are 20 pages of reasons why the tax and clone cost are bad. If they really need more reasons after that, there's something wrong.


The clone yes the market tax arguments generally come down to people feeling preemptively jealous of who ever is gong to hold valuable market citadels or that a new isk sink is opening up affecting them

Ok, then you must have read something much different than I did. To me it seems like the response to increasing taxes is people explaining how that won't move people into citadels because of risk, while destroying the station trading profession and making it harder to get stuff.



A 6% increase is not going to "destroy the station trading profession" the market will recover and yes it will push people to use citadels once people see they are not as vulnerable add they ate speculating

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#398 - 2016-03-05 14:43:43 UTC
Destroying the trading profession is a bit dramatic.
Players will be attracted to buy in citadels because lower taxes leads to lower prices.

If you're really that worried that your beloved market hub will be decced, then why not help defend it?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#399 - 2016-03-05 14:47:49 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Yup. But dumb mechanic remains dumb.


But your going to need better points or it just hurts the argument

There are 20 pages of reasons why the tax and clone cost are bad. If they really need more reasons after that, there's something wrong.


LOL, the Reddit thread had over 1000 replies within 12 hours. The response was overwhelmingly negative.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#400 - 2016-03-05 14:55:05 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


If you're really that worried that your beloved market hub will be decced, then why not help defend it?


A citadel owner may decide to play another game. Or he might have a stroke and go to hospital. Or he might go on a vacation. Whatever the case, the citadel will run out of fuel eventually and I'm looking at 600+ orders vanishing into thin air, and a 10% bill on my assets. There's no "defence" against that. (maybe this is something that CCP can look at, allowing citadel residents to contribute fuel)