These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Cynosural field changes

Author
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1 - 2016-03-04 09:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
So I was reading a thread on GD about a players experience with null and in it I couldn't help but think that something needs to change about the way we light cynos.

Think about them just from a gameplay point of view. Two equal fleets of HACs are fighting when one notices things aren't going well. At this "turning point" the losing side thinks it's time to light a cyno and bring in heavy support. Is it really good design that the cyno module that brings salvation or doom to a battle could be hidden on just about any ship on the field? And what use is finding out after the cyno is lit? In one on one fights as well, you can be put off taking a fight if you think it may be cyno bait. This unknowable factor is what leads to stagnation and boredom.

My suggestion is that cynos should only be possible to light through the use of a special ship class, which could be a new one or already existing. This would mean that unless you see that ship class on grid that you won't be dealing with a sudden super fleet. It would be nice if the cyno ship class was also useful when on the field to encourage people to actually use them but they should be balanced to be worse than most ships to make up for their huge capability.

Edit: I accept this is a bad idea from the posts in this thread. Any passing ISD can close this thread.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-03-04 09:19:46 UTC
Why?
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#3 - 2016-03-04 09:25:53 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2016-03-04 09:39:56 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.


The only change would be that every fleet would bring some of those ship. So nothing would change. And for that you need a gamechange ????

-1
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-03-04 09:58:44 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.



Always assume the other guy has friends on standby. Not a difficult rule to live by really.

Please explain why moving caps around should get even more annoying than it already is.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-03-04 10:09:10 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.



Except people would just run away. All the time.


Why is someone fitting a mod that takes a slot and non trivial fitting a problem?
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#7 - 2016-03-04 10:12:34 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.



Always assume the other guy has friends on standby. Not a difficult rule to live by really.

Please explain why moving caps around should get even more annoying than it already is.


It's not a tough rule to live by no, people are already living that way. It's called the blue doughnut. Everyone expects their enemy will have friends ready to drop in and it discourages content. Phoebe was an attempt to break up the stagnation that results when entities are able to move across space near instantly, it worked well to that aim despite cap owners being annoyed. The next problem with hot-drops is there's no way at all to predict them, at all. The cyno module could be literally anywhere, if it could only be fit on certain hulls then the ability of a fleet to hot-drop could be taken away.

The ability to cyno in ships is a massive strength, out of all the role-based ships in the game why is the role of cyno-er able to be filled by any ship. Eve in many areas is a game where there are so many possible ways to die and very few outward signs of which it's going to be.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines
#8 - 2016-03-04 12:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyra Lee
There is on major thing I see as wrong in your thinking, the availability of intel on the opposing force. If you create a class of ship that its sole job is to cyno in others then you know that the enemy fleet has friends on standby. The same can be said for Command ships and Logi ships. You know a fleet has boosts when you spot a vulture on grid. You know a fleet has logi when you spot a scythe on grid. You would then know a fleet has backup if the cyno ship is on grid.

With that knowledge each FC can make another calculated assessment and decide to engage or not. This new cyno ship would become a binary switch on engagements the same way logi is and to a lesser extent boosts. If Force A has a cyno ship, and therefore backup, and Force B does not, then Force B will almost never engage. By keeping things murky and unclear a less defined decision has to be made and in more cases a fight may happen. It could be a horribly lopsided fight when someone hotdrops supers, but at least a fight happened.

The risk of the unknown is part of the allure of the sandbox. It is one of the main reasons wormhole space is/was a big mystery. There may be a cloaky T3 sitting 3km off your ship, and there may not, but you keep going in and shooting those sleepers for loot anyway.

KL

Edit====================
Re-read your post just previous to mine. This looks like it just comes down to a difference in philosophies. You say that since everyone knows their enemies have backup it discourages content. Most of the rest of us are saying, we all know that and we don't care. You say that there is no way to predict hotdrops and to an extent that is true, but that is the point of them.

I see two other problems with creating a cyno ship. If one was created it would have to survive long enough to fulfill its role. this ship would have to be as tanky as a command ship in order to survive. We would also have to adjust the 5 minute no movement timer. That is a death sentence for that ship. Secondly this would create a ship that possibly has no use. Say you and 9 of your buddies go out for a roam and you are in the new cyno ship. You meet a couple of small groups but nothing worth escalating capitals on. Now that cyno ship did not fulfill its designed role and you were worthless to bring along. I personally wouldn't find that fun. Is there any other combat ship that would be useless in a combat fleet op like i just described?

The threat of a cyno or hotdrop is only as detrimental as you allow it to be. There are many ways to counter that tactic.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-03-04 12:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Phoebe was an attempt to break up the stagnation that results when entities are able to move across space near instantly


No, that wasn't stagnation. That was power projection and it work admirably to kill that, perhaps even a little too well because it has caused stagnation. Evidenced by the fact that many/most people would rather blow their own ships up and rebuild than attempt to move a capital any material distance.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2016-03-04 14:53:13 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.


Lighting a cyno for reinforcement in a battle that is not going your way is also a reaction so you would have to call it good gameplay.
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#11 - 2016-03-04 15:09:34 UTC
I don't think this is a good idea.

I guess it will lead to:

- No more rookie ships lighting cynos at stations (except they get the role as well, because they are not really combat ships, in which case every capital fleet will just carry a couple rookie ships around in their ship maintenance bays)

- People avoiding fights with fleets that have those ships with them, so you have to cloak them to get fights. So we have the same situation as before, with the only difference that you don't fight fleets because they may have a cyno, you don't fight them because they may have a ship that may have a cyno.

- Big fleets sniping the cyno ships so that they can use their cyno ships and cyno for reinforcements without the fear of the other side getting reinforcements as well.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2016-03-04 15:50:28 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.


I don't know having better information can make things less...fun. Also, everyone would target the cyno ships to ensure there is no back up. Or cyno ships simply wouldn't be on grid with the fight. They'd go to a safe and cloak (even a prototype cloak would be sufficient).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2016-03-04 16:04:37 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Why?


So that people don't have the massive unknown that cynos bring anymore, but I don't want them totally removed or anything. If you had a heads up that a hot drop was coming you would be able to prepare. Being able to react is what makes good gameplay IMO.



Always assume the other guy has friends on standby. Not a difficult rule to live by really.

Please explain why moving caps around should get even more annoying than it already is.


It's not a tough rule to live by no, people are already living that way. It's called the blue doughnut. Everyone expects their enemy will have friends ready to drop in and it discourages content. Phoebe was an attempt to break up the stagnation that results when entities are able to move across space near instantly, it worked well to that aim despite cap owners being annoyed. The next problem with hot-drops is there's no way at all to predict them, at all. The cyno module could be literally anywhere, if it could only be fit on certain hulls then the ability of a fleet to hot-drop could be taken away.

The ability to cyno in ships is a massive strength, out of all the role-based ships in the game why is the role of cyno-er able to be filled by any ship. Eve in many areas is a game where there are so many possible ways to die and very few outward signs of which it's going to be.



Blue...doughnut? Seriously, you still going on with that one. Back when we had no jump fatigue and longer jump ranges that argument had some validity. Now, with fatigue and nerfed jump ranges I find that argument far less convincing. In fact look at the maps pre and post change.

Today

Before Jump Fatigue.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#14 - 2016-03-04 16:33:56 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Phoebe was an attempt to break up the stagnation that results when entities are able to move across space near instantly


No, that wasn't stagnation. That was power projection and it work admirably to kill that, perhaps even a little too well because it has caused stagnation. Evidenced by the fact that many/most people would rather blow their own ships up and rebuild than attempt to move a capital any material distance.


Agreed. The Imperium has no desire to expand it's borders because it has no desire to over extend itself. So there is no incentive to blue up with anyone in the entire southern half of the map.

So I don't think "blue doughnut/donut" is correct. The effects might be quite similar, but the incentives to blue up or create various types of NIPs, NAPs, etc. are greatly reduced. A powerful group from one side of the map is a limited, at best, threat to a group on the other side of the map these days.

Now it seems more about local brush fire type wars.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#15 - 2016-03-04 16:55:44 UTC
Good points from you all thanks, this was an idea that popped into my head and straight through onto the forum without much further thought.

I can see fleets turning tail and running when they saw the dedicated cyno ship arrive so in that sense it does reduce content. I'll chalk this up as a bad idea based on old knowledge of null.

Any passing ISD can close this thread.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#16 - 2016-03-04 17:05:59 UTC
This idea is just bad. Others have pointed out some of the reasons this idea is bad. Here are some more thoughts:

What this change really does, is limit the threat posed by an AFK cloaky. Because unless he is in that special snowflake ship that can light a cyno, you really have nothing about which to worry. To that extent, this is a stealth "Nerf AFK-cloaking" thread.

I've run into lots of people who complain about the presence of a particular ship in my fleet. They all have one thing in common: they don't actually want to fight.

"Wah! You have two logi. We won't fight."
My attitude: "Actually, I had four logi, it's just that two of them lemminged and you saw them. If you don't want to fight, get the **** out of my space."

"Wah! You have a Command Destroyer! You might pull me off the undock! We won't fight!"
My attitude: "Fine, we'll just finish killing this Mackinaw who is AFK in the mining anomaly."

"Wah! You might have a cyno! We won't fight!"
My attitude: "I guess you'll never know whether I have a cyno, because you are too afraid to crack my ship open to find out."

People who do actually want to fight get excited when a cyno goes up, because it gives them the opportunity to kill something bigger and more meaningful. When the Russians dropped a Titan on our undock in LS-JEP last weekend, that was not a "Game over, man! The Russians dropped the big one!" moment. That was a "Hell yeah! This is going to be a great ******* day!" moment. It's all a matter of attitude.

In short, you can go through Eve feeling like a victim, or you can go through Eve feeling like a hunter.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2016-03-04 17:38:48 UTC
And with the jump range and jump fatigue the cyno took a massive indirect nerf. Yes, there can still be cyno bait and the like, but that fear is far, far less these days. You'll find them more common in hostile space or in border systems. And if that is not working as intended...well, then jump fatigue should be re-examined.

I see little to no need to further nerf cynos.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2016-03-04 19:04:50 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
When the Russians dropped a Titan on our undock in LS-JEP last weekend, that was not a "Game over, man! The Russians dropped the big one!" moment. That was a "Hell yeah! This is going to be a great ******* day!" moment. It's all a matter of attitude.

It's a good attitude to have.