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[Citadels] Changing NPC taxes

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DeLaBu
CAF Industries
#241 - 2016-03-04 08:33:17 UTC
CCP, PLEASE consider only doing the broker and tax changes once we can do contracts in Citadels.

Bulk logistics (as in moving stuff, not repairing) without contracts relies heavily on contracts if more than a few people are involved.

If you want people to shift trading to citadels then all the key mechanisms that make trading possible should be in place.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#242 - 2016-03-04 08:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaivar Lancer
WTF. This game is becoming more like a fuking job than a game.

I have to wait 5 days AND spend hours relisting 600+ orders every time a citadel gets ganked. To add insult to injury, I'll also have to pay a new set of fees for the new orders.

If {frequency of citadel ganks * player tax} > NPC tax, it's cheaper to remain in an NPC station.

And all this is presuming I have docking rights.

Basically I'll have to get down on my knees and guzzle some null-sec bloc since they'll only be the ones capable of defending a citadel 24/7.

Yeah, cya.
motie one
Secret Passage
#243 - 2016-03-04 08:45:00 UTC
Niko Zino wrote:
Let me just be clear here. I am definitely not pissing on anyone at CCP for trying to come up with new solutions to problems, perceived or real, here. These discussions and proposals are what keep the game alive and I will never suggest anyone should be mad at devs for mentioning new ideas.

For the clone thing, that 'jump tax' is not that high a financial burden. It's a psychological barrier that tells players 'you should not change activities/venues often, unless you're rich or know the RIGHT people'. The net effect is pigeonholing players in their current position. 'Meh, I don't want to spend X just to try out something I don't know I'll be good at or even enjoy' will become a tiresome reply to people like me, who spend their game time trying to provide content or help people discover new areas of the game rather than to make dank ISK. 'Meh I don't want to spend X to go to that far away place where we're not even sure we'll find targets' will be a common answer to FCs trying to find content away from home. Eve isn't my job, it's the thing I do when I'm not working.

And I'm not saying those people are right to say that. Just that, even for big alliances, I'm sure mustering enough interest is hard enough as it is... So, of course, the answer will be '****, son, all you have to do is be better organized and shift the costs to the corp/alliance'. So now, I have to work twice as much for the same result, one for the money, two for the shoes.

But the main difference is that for people in Redemption Road, Spectre, Pandemic Horde, KarmaFleet, CAS, and all the other organizations who are helping people try new things, what we get out of it isn't an amount of ISK, or an amount of kills. It's - maybe - pilots who will carry on and join the corps of these people who say they have eve completely figured out, and help THEM have more ISK, or more kills.

So, I understand if you don't see the short term benefit to you or your corp in listening to our point of view, I really do. But in the long run? During the March of the NewBros? You've got to know fresh blood is needed and that someone will have to pay for their training, either in time, or in ISK, which is roughly similar. Making our game harder is counter productive to almost everyone.


This is simply one of the effects of using punishment to modify player behaviour rather than encouraging the modification of player behaviour through offering a more enjoyable and interesting choice. This REALLY needs to be addressed.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#244 - 2016-03-04 09:04:08 UTC
Muon Farstrider wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.


Wat. Every time I jump out of a clone while docked in an NPC station I'm going to have to pay 5m isk? That's absurd. 5m for initial installation is a bit of a steep jump from the existing fees but reasonable for a one-time cost, but essentially a 5m fee every time you want to use the jump clone system is crazy.

Please tell me I'm misinterpreting this, or if I'm not, please think that through a bit more. Not everyone lives somewhere where there'll be abundant friendly citadels to get around that - and to boot, the people who don't (hisec/lowsec dwellers) are also the ones who are most likely to have a large, spread-out geographic area that they use the current jump clone system to get around in.


So the easier solution would be to make a citadel of you own to save the 5 mio. I mean you could jumpclone about once a day so the amount if you do so is around 150 Mio / month. There have to be downsides to npc services otherwise nobody would use the playerbuild services.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#245 - 2016-03-04 09:17:25 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello people, Team Game of Drones is having a look at the Citadel structures services (reprocessing, clones, market, compression, offices) and we would like to make a few changes that will impact NPC taxes. The goal of such changes is to give more flexibility for Citadel owners to make a profit when charging their services to the public, while making sure they are profitable enough to compete versus NPC station services.


  • Offices in Citadels: unlike renting offices in NPC stations, there will be no office limit in Citadels. As long as you are granted access by the owner there will be no limitation about creating an office there. Office rental will be a flat fee, fixed by the owner. The fee will not have a NPC tax of any sort.

  • Medical clones: we are thinking of keeping the 100,000 ISK fee for changing the home station in a Citadel, just like NPC stations. As long as you have access you will never face an artificial limit to medical clones in Citadels.

  • Jump Clones: current price for installing jump clones in NPC stations is around 100,000 ISK. We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price. Jump Clones installed in Citadels will not have any NPC taxes, but the owner can charge his own pricing for the service. We also want to remove the maximum limit of jump clones for Citadels: like Citadel offices, your alliance, corporation or public customers will never be denied usage of this service if you grant them access in the first place.

  • Reprocessing: we are thinking of changing the way reprocessing taxes work. Currently, the taxes are expressed in materials, so if you get 100 units of tritanium the system would take 5 for a 5% tax. We would like to change that tax to be payable in ISK only to make it simpler for structure owners to get their fees. This would apply to NPC stations as well and still be reduced by your standings tower the NPC corporation owning the station. In addition, the tax will be properly logged into the transactions part of the journal. Reprocessing taxes inside a Citadel will be left entirely to the owner, no NPC tax will be enforced.

  • Compression: after internal discussion we are planning to merge this service with the reprocessing service module, so you won't need to install two modules in your Citadel to get this functionality. Compression is not going to be taxed because there is no NPC counterpart to compete with (only available in Starbases at the moment).

  • Market: markets currently have two taxes, transaction's tax, applied for sold items, and broker's fee for non immediate orders, which are set at 1.5% and 1% respectively. To create an environment more competitive for Citadels, we plan on increasing the transaction tax to 2.5% and the broker's fee to 5-6%. Players trading in citadels will still receive the transaction tax, but the broker's fee will be at the complete discretion of the owner. To avoid confusion for the owner, the broker relations skill will not affect player set broker's fee in Citadels.

  • Contracts: while Contracts will not be available in Citadels for the first release, the transaction's tax and borker's fee will also go up by the same amount than markets as mentioned above.



Please remember those are still work in progress changes (especially the market broker's fee tax amount), so please use constructive feedback in your replies.


Good idea, so player build structures have an advantage in comparison to the NPC ones.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#246 - 2016-03-04 10:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Skia Aumer
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
there will be no office limit in Citadels

So again, why would I want to build more than one citadel in a system?

Let's consider:
- unlimited cargo and ship hangar,
- unlimited production and research slots,
- unlimited offices,
- no racial flavors,
- cannot block moons from hostile citadels.

I dont see any initiative to build "space cities" here. Do I miss something?
Imagine real life houses could host infinite dwellers, with garages for infinite number of cars, and workshops capable of infinite production (while consuming some finite amount of electricity). How would a city look like?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#247 - 2016-03-04 10:10:32 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:

So again, why would I want to build more than one citadel in a system?

Let's consider:
- unlimited cargo and ship hangar,
- unlimited production and research slots,
- unlimited offices,
- no racial flavors,
- cannot block moons from hostile citadels.

I dont see any initiative to build "space cities" here. Do I miss something?
Imagine real life houses could host infinite dwellers, with garages for infinite number of cars, and workshops capable of infinite production (while consuming some finite amount of electricity). How would a city look like?

Reclaiming of goods to a new Citadel, Different reinforcement timers so you can't be taken out in a sneak attack. Two Citadels on one grid so you can warp between them, but the enemy can't without going into range of the citadel weapons, and you have reinforcements on grid without being right in the thick of the fighting so you can form up a squad before re-entering the fight.

However your space city should not be 20 Citadels, your Space city should be a Citadel surrounded by other structures such as assembly arrays fitted in different manners, observation arrays, jump gates etc.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#248 - 2016-03-04 10:12:04 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
there will be no office limit in Citadels

So again, why would I want to build more than one citadel in a system?

Let's consider:
- unlimited cargo and ship hangar,
- unlimited production and research slots,
- unlimited offices,
- no racial flavors,
- cannot block moons from hostile citadels.

I dont see any initiative to build "space cities" here. Do I miss something?
Imagine real life houses could host infinite dwellers, with garages for infinite number of cars, and workshops capable of infinite production (while consuming some finite amount of electricity). How would a city look like?


why should you need to build more than one?

remember there are going to be a lot more structures

Mining and reprocessing

manufacturing

research

ect

so while you may only need one citadel you will not only need one structure

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#249 - 2016-03-04 10:14:07 UTC
and for all the people saying the new taxes are going to be to harsh on ppl using npc stations remember the point is to get people to not use then and to use player built ones. if a player can do it NPCs shouldn't

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#250 - 2016-03-04 10:27:42 UTC
luobote kong wrote:
So the general drift is some people will in future have to ask permission from others to be able to play Eve competitively? I'm thinking small groups and solo players who also can't set up a market in a medium citadel. Good luck with that if that is your intention. Or have I missed something?


Pretty much. Eve used to be a sandbox where a lone capsuleer can make his own sandcastle. It might not be the biggest sandcastle in the galaxy, but it was HIS sandcastle, and he could have some fun with it in his own little niche.

Now, forget it. Notice that the smallest Citadel size is "Medium". This is telling of CCP's new philosophy towards Eve.
Rob Kaichin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2016-03-04 10:34:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rob Kaichin
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
and for all the people saying the new taxes are going to be to harsh on ppl using npc stations remember the point is to get people to not use then and to use player built ones. if a player can do it NPCs shouldn't



"Your contract with Goon-Clones Inc. has expired. If you don't reaffirm this contract, you will not be resurrected.

Note: Goon-Clones Inc has edited the terms of their contracts. The cost of resurrection is 500 million ISK. Alternatively, you can provide 4 full skill injectors to Goon-Clones Inc. Goon-Clones Inc. provides complementary skill extractors.

Remember, if you have no contract with a Clone provider, you will die.

Goon-Citadels Inc. would like you to note that there is a camp outside the citadel you live in, and recommends accepting the Goon-Clones Inc. contract.




"If players can do it, NPCs shouldn't" is a matter of perspective, not a matter of development best practise.

CCP could provide an entirely neo-liberal economic system, with everything done by players. It would be a disaster.

CCP: inflicting the full force of Eve players on other Players is *not* the way to keep people playing. A small reminder: this is a game, not a lifestyle, not a job, not a requirement for living.

We can always leave.


And here's our first leaver.

http://merchantmonarchy.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/great-expectations.html

4 years of blogging. He's saying goodbye. What kind of players, and what number of players do you still want to play this game when all things have been said and done?
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#252 - 2016-03-04 10:47:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Akrasjel Lanate
If forcing people with a stick is the only method then we have a problem.

Riging the game in favor Citadels it's like you want to force them to systems that alredy have NPC stations(even 10 and more).

Should it be the goal to put them and increase activity in stationles systems, like border systems, ice systems or other standard systems. Is the only way to achive it is to "nerf NPC stations".


Duno maybe in future you may plan put another resource for players to "harvest" and in that case 10%-30% supply would be in systems with NPC stations and the rest in stationless systems in not only high but also low and maybe null.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#253 - 2016-03-04 11:04:09 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
If forcing people with a stick is the only method then we have a problem.

Riging the game in favor Citadels it's like you want to force them to systems that alredy have NPC stations(even 10 and more).

Should it be the goal to put them and increase activity in stationles systems, like border systems, ice systems or other standard systems. Is the only way to achive it is to "nerf NPC stations".

Actually CCP should be working towards removing most of those NPC stations without as big a stick on them.
If most systems even in highsec don't have capsule er accessible stations then there is a lot more reason to use a Citadel, since it lets you operate in less crowded territory even if the prices aren't as different.
There is no real need for 10 different stations in a single system any more now that stations don't have a limit on slots (except for offices and even that could be removed and a system index implemented instead like the rest, where everyone pays more the more crowded it gets).

LP stores could be made more unified, with several corporations having access to the same LP store, or multiple LP stores could be accessible in a single station. Agents of different corps could again all share space.. It would be easy systemwise to do it, transfer goods automatically to the nearest NPC station still existing when you remove one.

And now when only 1 in 8 or so highsec systems have a station (Much like NPC Null from what I've paid attention to), suddenly there is reason to use citadels without NPC stations having to have such a massive stick. And there is room for corps to form around providing services across a constellation or region even in highsec. And industrial corps to become larger and more structured.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#254 - 2016-03-04 11:15:13 UTC
^ The thing is, most people in this game PVE. They're not interested in the PVP shenanigans that CCP are forcing them into. They just want to login after a hard day at work, and spend an hour or two running missions or mining a belt or updating orders. They're not going to bother if they need to relocate every few weeks because their local citadel got ganked, or the citadel owner decided to be ass and deny docking rights etc. At this rate, people will just buy their own Orca and become nomadic.
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#255 - 2016-03-04 11:44:09 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Niko Zino wrote:
Stuff


Those are fair points we've been discussing internally. Initial figures show us maintaining a cloning bay in a Citadel will cost 157m ISK a month, we wanted to provide means for the owner to recoup that cost and even make a profit in general.


That doesn't justify costing 5 million isk just to jump from one existing clone to another. You are hurting a huge portion of the player base with this outlandish 5 mil isk fee. If I want to switch from a mining clone to a reprocess or PvP one, 5 mil. If I want to jump frommissile PvP clone to guns, 5 mil. If I want to lead a fleet of newer members to nul or low, 5 mil each few of they don't want to risk implants. That really does seem absurd. You basically kill the convineience and value of jump clones. You turn them from an easy way to reduce risk and encourage people to try PvP or even a new walk life based on implants, into one More hurddle that hinders play.

I'm sorry but this fee structure for jump clones seems like a horrible idea that needs to be rethought. If it is just to cover the cost of clone bay, reduce the fuel cost of the bay. This is not a tax I would ever support and for the first time I am now thinking citedals are no longer a fun item, but rather a restrictive isk sink forces upon us all.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#256 - 2016-03-04 11:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
^ The thing is, most people in this game PVE. They're not interested in the PVP shenanigans that CCP are forcing them into. They just want to login after a hard day at work, and spend an hour or two running missions or mining a belt or updating orders. They're not going to bother if they need to relocate every few weeks because their local citadel got ganked, or the citadel owner decided to be ass and deny docking rights etc. At this rate, people will just buy their own Orca and become nomadic.


People are crying about paying other players market tax and jump clone costs and you think they're going to live out of orcas?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#257 - 2016-03-04 11:59:42 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
^ The thing is, most people in this game PVE. They're not interested in the PVP shenanigans that CCP are forcing them into. They just want to login after a hard day at work, and spend an hour or two running missions or mining a belt or updating orders. They're not going to bother if they need to relocate every few weeks because their local citadel got ganked, or the citadel owner decided to be ass and deny docking rights etc. At this rate, people will just buy their own Orca and become nomadic.


People are crying about paying other players market tax and jump clone costs and you think they're going to live out of orcas?


I was replying to the dude who talked about removing stations in high sec.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#258 - 2016-03-04 12:13:42 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:

I was replying to the dude who talked about removing stations in high sec.

That sort of person will live out of the NPC stations still then and just put up with the competition in the area. I wasn't talking about removing every station, just making it so more systems have no stations than have stations, to allow citadels to flourish without having to have arbitrarily restrictive penalties on NPC stations.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#259 - 2016-03-04 12:22:41 UTC
HandelsPharmi wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We are planning to increase that amount to 5m ISK to install a jump clone in NPC stations. That price will also be payable anytime a clone is left behind in a NPC station - so, if you jump clone away from a NPC station from previously established jump clones you will still pay that price.


The price is for PREVIOUSLY ESTABLISHED jump clones.


It is a one time fee, additonal 4.9M ISK or 5.0M ISK... NOT every time you change your clone guy.
And even 5M ISK @ 30 jump clones per month = 150M ISK per month...


Afraid not , it is per jump.
MachineOfLovingGrace
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#260 - 2016-03-04 12:45:53 UTC
Rob Kaichin wrote:

"If players can do it, NPCs shouldn't" is a matter of perspective, not a matter of development best practise.

CCP could provide an entirely neo-liberal economic system, with everything done by players. It would be a disaster.

CCP: inflicting the full force of Eve players on other Players is *not* the way to keep people playing. A small reminder: this is a game, not a lifestyle, not a job, not a requirement for living.


Exactly this.