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Typhoon Fleet Issue

Author
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2016-03-01 08:49:41 UTC
Switch Savage wrote:
ChromeStriker wrote:
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, New Setup 1 copy 1]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Missile Guidance Enhancer II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Capacitor Power Relay II

500MN Microwarpdrive II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Warp Scrambler II
Large Micro Jump Drive

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II
Large Core Defense Field Extender II

Ogre II x5
Hammerhead II x5
Acolyte II x5

1000 dps, 2 heavy neuts, MJD, 100K EHP, hits Cruisers all day, 1200m/s, Swap the Scram for whichever EWAR you need...
This ship changes fit to whatever you ask of it...

Sorry whats your problem?

Edit:

Quite a few pirate BS's are cheeper than this now.. would prob go with one of those ;)


What...

Wolfs fit is the way to go i run mine slightly modified with a bit more bling. Hull tank brawling is a reasonable option but jesus wept never shield tank it for PvP.


Its fine shield tanked... whats wrong with it?

(I do live in a Pulsar so im slightly bias... but even if i didnt id still like it shield tanked)

No Worries

Switch Savage
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-03-01 09:33:27 UTC
Its just really underwhelming slot layout for a shield tanked BS. You lose a lot of utility and not having a web means your application suffers really badly. Brawling with hull tank nets you more ehp and far better utility to drive up application. Can understand why you run that in a Pulsar though :D
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2016-03-01 10:40:05 UTC
Switch Savage wrote:
Its just really underwhelming slot layout for a shield tanked BS. You lose a lot of utility and not having a web means your application suffers really badly. Brawling with hull tank nets you more ehp and far better utility to drive up application. Can understand why you run that in a Pulsar though :D


It has enough EHP to catch reps and is mobile enough to run with smaller gangs, adding some punch and those heavy neuts.. its all good...
The problem is i can run a nightmare for cheaper that can do the same thing lol... Ugh

No Worries

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#24 - 2016-03-02 16:52:17 UTC
ChromeStriker wrote:
Switch Savage wrote:
Its just really underwhelming slot layout for a shield tanked BS. You lose a lot of utility and not having a web means your application suffers really badly. Brawling with hull tank nets you more ehp and far better utility to drive up application. Can understand why you run that in a Pulsar though :D


It has enough EHP to catch reps and is mobile enough to run with smaller gangs, adding some punch and those heavy neuts.. its all good...
The problem is i can run a nightmare for cheaper that can do the same thing lol... Ugh


When you have 5-10 people in a gang providing webs/TP's etc, it probably is fine in a WH. But in K-space, or in a small gang its a terrible setup. Missiles need more than a scram to apply, especially heavies. You also have fury heavies which is even worse for application (unless you are fighting a BS, or a heavily webbed BC).

Application against cruisers or frigs will be poor. Again, if you have enough people in your gang, you may not notice it. But if you get singled out, or roam alone, its an extremely subpar way to use it.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#25 - 2016-03-02 20:09:02 UTC
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#26 - 2016-03-03 10:50:47 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


I disagree
1/ you would lost the option to fit 8 guns for a full gank fit
2/ every one will expect you to come with missile, it would prevent you fron using something "else". Being not predictable for a typhoon pilot is one of its strength
3/ one more step, ask for one more med slot for better shield tank and i will ask you politely to use a raven ;)

moreove, It s good to show some fittings, it would be very good to show the gained killmarks.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#27 - 2016-03-03 14:48:44 UTC
Icarius wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


I disagree
1/ you would lost the option to fit 8 guns for a full gank fit
2/ every one will expect you to come with missile, it would prevent you fron using something "else". Being not predictable for a typhoon pilot is one of its strength
3/ one more step, ask for one more med slot for better shield tank and i will ask you politely to use a raven ;)

moreove, It s good to show some fittings, it would be very good to show the gained killmarks.


1. You can only fit 6 guns. Unless you mean fitting all 8 hislots with weapons. This is a poor reason to keep a heavily underperforming bonus.

2. There is nothing a gun Typhoon FI brings to the table that a t1 pest or tempest FI couldnt do. Infact both of the dedicated projectile battleships outperform the phoon by a large margin. The typhoon FI doesnt have the grid to properly mount 800mm ACs and dual heavy neuts like the tempests can. It cant even fit 800s and RHML. It has about 2-3k PG less than the pests. This means it has to downgrade down to 650s just to fit guns+tank, or use a rig for a pricey ACR. This is using a single AAR, nanos and aux pumps. Both pests can fit this easily. The pest FI is also just as fast as the phoon FI.

The whole "unexpected" persona is easily countered with the "look at" function.

Explain to me why we need another projectile BS, especially one that cant do anything different than the other main projectile ships (except max dps pos bash). Currently we have the tempest, tempest FI and maelstrom. So we have 3.5 projectile ships and 1.5 missile battleships.

I would much rather see the FI phoon transition into a fully fleshed out missile ship. Even its fittings suggest this (high CPU, lower grid). That would give us 2 missile BS and 3 projectile ships. Pretty fair spread if you ask me.
Liam Inkuras
ParabeIIum
#28 - 2016-03-03 16:34:48 UTC
[Typhoon Fleet Issue, RHML]

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Core B-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Republic Fleet Warp Disruptor
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Large Micro Jump Drive

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile
True Sansha Heavy Energy Neutralizer
True Sansha Heavy Energy Neutralizer

Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Large Ancillary Current Router I


Praetor II x5

This is the fit I like to run. It has more than enough mobility to keep up with roaming gangs and dishes out a ton of DPS, all of which is applied fairly well. You can sacrifice warp speed for application by swapping the hyperspatials to rigors, but then you lose a lot of roaming capability.

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#29 - 2016-03-03 20:27:11 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Icarius wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


I disagree
1/ you would lost the option to fit 8 guns for a full gank fit
2/ every one will expect you to come with missile, it would prevent you fron using something "else". Being not predictable for a typhoon pilot is one of its strength
3/ one more step, ask for one more med slot for better shield tank and i will ask you politely to use a raven ;)

moreove, It s good to show some fittings, it would be very good to show the gained killmarks.


1. You can only fit 6 guns. Unless you mean fitting all 8 hislots with weapons. This is a poor reason to keep a heavily underperforming bonus.

2. There is nothing a gun Typhoon FI brings to the table that a t1 pest or tempest FI couldnt do. Infact both of the dedicated projectile battleships outperform the phoon by a large margin. The typhoon FI doesnt have the grid to properly mount 800mm ACs and dual heavy neuts like the tempests can. It cant even fit 800s and RHML. It has about 2-3k PG less than the pests. This means it has to downgrade down to 650s just to fit guns+tank, or use a rig for a pricey ACR. This is using a single AAR, nanos and aux pumps. Both pests can fit this easily. The pest FI is also just as fast as the phoon FI.

The whole "unexpected" persona is easily countered with the "look at" function.

Explain to me why we need another projectile BS, especially one that cant do anything different than the other main projectile ships (except max dps pos bash). Currently we have the tempest, tempest FI and maelstrom. So we have 3.5 projectile ships and 1.5 missile battleships.

I would much rather see the FI phoon transition into a fully fleshed out missile ship. Even its fittings suggest this (high CPU, lower grid). That would give us 2 missile BS and 3 projectile ships. Pretty fair spread if you ask me.


It is a fully fledged missile ship, the gun bonus is basicely just rp flavor. If they removed that they wouldnt buff missiles instead, theyd just remove it as it is.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#30 - 2016-03-03 20:46:59 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Icarius wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


I disagree
1/ you would lost the option to fit 8 guns for a full gank fit
2/ every one will expect you to come with missile, it would prevent you fron using something "else". Being not predictable for a typhoon pilot is one of its strength
3/ one more step, ask for one more med slot for better shield tank and i will ask you politely to use a raven ;)

moreove, It s good to show some fittings, it would be very good to show the gained killmarks.


1. You can only fit 6 guns. Unless you mean fitting all 8 hislots with weapons. This is a poor reason to keep a heavily underperforming bonus.

2. There is nothing a gun Typhoon FI brings to the table that a t1 pest or tempest FI couldnt do. Infact both of the dedicated projectile battleships outperform the phoon by a large margin. The typhoon FI doesnt have the grid to properly mount 800mm ACs and dual heavy neuts like the tempests can. It cant even fit 800s and RHML. It has about 2-3k PG less than the pests. This means it has to downgrade down to 650s just to fit guns+tank, or use a rig for a pricey ACR. This is using a single AAR, nanos and aux pumps. Both pests can fit this easily. The pest FI is also just as fast as the phoon FI.

The whole "unexpected" persona is easily countered with the "look at" function.

Explain to me why we need another projectile BS, especially one that cant do anything different than the other main projectile ships (except max dps pos bash). Currently we have the tempest, tempest FI and maelstrom. So we have 3.5 projectile ships and 1.5 missile battleships.

I would much rather see the FI phoon transition into a fully fleshed out missile ship. Even its fittings suggest this (high CPU, lower grid). That would give us 2 missile BS and 3 projectile ships. Pretty fair spread if you ask me.


It is a fully fledged missile ship, the gun bonus is basicely just rp flavor. If they removed that they wouldnt buff missiles instead, theyd just remove it as it is.


Thats open for debate basic phoon is fully fledged missile ship if not buffing missiles directly (and i am not convinced one shouldn't) missile side can be reworked or drone side of ship can be looked at or hull it self(mwd / mjd / ab bonus just for example)

Anything really instead "just leave it its a RP thing" is a more sane thing to do.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#31 - 2016-03-07 02:52:14 UTC
If you were flying TFI 3 years ago as you say, I think you'd also understand there's historical reason for this.

Typhoon was much loved for its versatility, and has been the epitome of Minmatar 'oddball' philosophy.

Then it became a missile boat with properly focused bonuses, which was probably a good thing but kinda sad in a way.

When these changes happened, the Navy versions kept their old school trait, such as Navy Geddon with its big drone bay and Navy Domi having mixed gun+drone bonuses.

To an extent I agree that TFI needs a look at, but more in terms of grids and such so that people can really use its potential for versatility. I would be sad if TFI lost its dual bonuses and become more one-weapon type specific ship.

tl/dr: yes, I hope devs look at TFI, but I hope its historical characters can be preserved.

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#32 - 2016-03-07 06:06:24 UTC
I discovered the t1 pest with polarized guns and polarized torp launchers can get nearly identical dps as the typhoon FI in its dual weapon setup.

If the phoon FI uses torps+2 guns its gets around 2150dps with polarized fit.

T1 pest with 6 polarized guns and 2 polarized torp launchers is a little over 2000dps.

Not sure if 100dps is worth the extra cost of the hull. So once again, another projectile hull is still very comparable, or better altogether than Phoon FI with gun bonus. Its a useless bonus, and Either the T1 pest or Pest FI does it better or cheaper.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#33 - 2016-03-07 23:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Ok, so a tiny bit longer post on why the floon is so much better then the phoon (or the pest, or the tempest fleet) in PVP.


First lets start with every RAPID missile system, in this case rapid heavys, while usually rate of fire bonuses are preferred to damage ones as they give more dps the unqiue aspect of the Rapids make that bonus a double edged sword, yes you shoot fast but you also reload sooner. Which means that on rapid ships the pure damage bonus is much preferred to a rof one.

The phoon has

Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to Rapid Heavy, Cruise Missile and Torpedo Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo explosion velocity

- the first bonus is in this case just a weaker damage one and the second bonus doesnt apply at all, so it gets a very weak rhml bonus

the floon has:



Minmatar Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage
7.5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire

the second bonus is useless but the first one is very strong, it means the floon packs some serious punch and its somewhat sustained and not like the phoon.

Now lets get to why rapid heavys are so strong in the first place, first up they have range, which is really important, a pest or fleet pest loses a shitton of dps if its far away. Then you have no tracking, so the aforementioned pests lose all their dps vs something small orbiting up close, while the rapid heavys still do damage. And compared to all other missile choices rhmls apply really well.

Turret bs are better if they are in the perfect position, floons are always good and as the perfect position is really rare for turret bs floons have a big advantage.

Next up is the fact that missiles dont need that much to work, youll commonly see dual or triple gyro and 2 trackng enhancers and even a rig or two for the turret BS, missiles already work with 2 bcus, a mge and a rig are not needed but nice additions, you save 1-3 lowslots which is very important as those lowslots are really strong.


The you have the native tankyness of the floon, a phoon has 44k ehp with a dcu, a floon has 66k - which is a big difference the extra tank buys you a lot of time.

And then there is the great utlity due to 2 heavy neuts, which are super strong on tq right now you. Then you have the drone bay, the mobility (mjd + its not a slow bs).


If you add all this together you end up with a ship with very few weaknesses, it has amazing range, good dps, the ability to project that dps, great utility, ood mobility good ehp and a alright active tank.


The current meta is very cruiser and below heavy, rapid heavys are super strong against cruisers and useable against frigates, the mjd allows to escape a kiting lockdown and the neuts alllow you to break cruiser sized active tanks and it also enables you to shut down kiters.

The phoon has less ehp, less neuts, less damage and is all around just plain worse.

On grid this thing is a beast right now.




However, as with all BS (bar maybe the mach), on grid isnt the problem, roaming with these things is a nightmare, catching people is a nightmare and for every gf you get you get blobbed, gatecamped or blueballed 10 times.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#34 - 2016-03-08 18:21:15 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


If the floons gun bonus isn't good enough to make it a good gunboat, that's a problem wither the guns, not the boat.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#35 - 2016-03-08 18:49:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


If the floons gun bonus isn't good enough to make it a good gunboat, that's a problem wither the guns, not the boat.


If the guns were a problem then the pest/pest FI would have the same issue but they don't. They perform fine, and can fit everything without a problem, unlike the typhoon FI.

The phoon FI's gun bonus is useless and is outclassed by both the T1 pest and tempest FI. Even in an all out structure bash with polarized torps and polarized 800mm's, the typhoon FI only edges out the T1 pest (with same fitting) by 150ish dps. That is including 5 T2 Ogre's on the phoon FI. So you want to spend an extra 250-300m on a typhoon FI just so you can do 150 more dps in a structure bash?

Otherwise, the t1 pest and pest FI bring the same thing to the table that the phoon FI brings (with guns), and do it better, as well as cheaper.

W0lf Crendraven wrote:
good stuff about why the FI phoon is a good missile ship


From my perspective, the phoon FI is a great RHML ship, probably only outclassed by the barghest. It does well at brawling with RHML, or even kiting with RHML. But when looking at cruise or torps, the T1 phoon is a better match, which i'm a bit at odds with.

My issue with the phoon FI is that its gun bonus is completely useless when comparing it to the t1 pest or pest FI. I'd much prefer to see its bonuses both change to missile bonuses. No one uses the phoon FI for guns because its not good and has no role that the pest/pest FI don't already fill. Hell it doesn't even have the grid to fit a cookie cutter AAR kite fit like the pests do.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#36 - 2016-03-08 22:08:09 UTC
The Fleet typhoon has to sacrifice a low and a rig to fit a rack of T2 1400mms*, sure, but that's the 'pests role. The Fleet typhoon isn't meant to be quite as powerful a gunboat as the TFI, or else why would anyone fly the TFI when the fleet phoon is: faster, smaller, more agile, lighter, has more cap, has a bigger drone bay, much more drone bandwidth, an extra utility high and can also use bonused missiles while packing those ACs. (Did you take that ability into account while calculating those DPS numbers...?)

It has 9.6 effective turrets vs the Fleet Pest's 10 - a whole 4% less base turret DPS, albeit also with a worse alpha. But honestly, no one is flying fleet Tempests over phoons because they do 4% better base AC DPS. They're flying fleet tempests because brawling BS in general don't often work in the current "kite all the things!" meta, and people quite reasonably want to use arty in that environment, and the pest is definitely better as an arty platform.

The phoon is a substandard turret platform because BS ACs are a substandard turret. That's not a justification to remove the turret slots. (One might equally reasonably suggest that CCP remove the Typhoon's missile slots because no one's using them for torps!)

Nor would it necessarily lead to the fleet Typhoon getting additional missile power. The fleet phoon has the bonuses it has for a very specific reason: to allow it to be fully effective as a gun platform or as a missile platform - to preserve that versatility that was the originbal Typhoon's trademark. Losing those turret slots wouldn't gun it anything, and would lose it that versatility. That would be a goddamb shame.


*The huge fitting disparity between ACs and Arty has been problematic for balancing minmatar ships for as long as I can remember.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#37 - 2016-03-08 22:09:00 UTC
Compare it to the other faction (or non faction) missile bs, those all are equally bad bonus wise, in fact most of the are worse off for rhmls.

The rhml floon is very strong right now, if it got any other bonus to rhmls it would be totally broken (still never used, but to good on grid).

Its not a bad gun ship either, pest is too good (or the others are too ****) atm damage wise (it outdamages a mach), but between the gun tfi and the gun floon there is not a big difference, the tfi does slightly more turret dps and has a tiny bit more ehp, the floon is faster and more agile and has more drones. The problem is more that the rhml floon is way better then the 800mm floon.

Complaining about the gun bonus is imo a bit like complaining about the bonus to hams on the orthrus, no one uses them ever, but they still are there.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#38 - 2016-03-08 23:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Malcanis wrote:
The Fleet typhoon has to sacrifice a low and a rig to fit a rack of T2 1400mms*, sure, but that's the 'pests role. The Fleet typhoon isn't meant to be quite as powerful a gunboat as the TFI, or else why would anyone fly the TFI when the fleet phoon is: faster, smaller, more agile, lighter, has more cap, has a bigger drone bay, much more drone bandwidth, an extra utility high and can also use bonused missiles while packing those ACs. (Did you take that ability into account while calculating those DPS numbers...?)


Compared to the fleet pest, the fleet phoon is faster by a negligible amount. Smaller? Its a BS, you're not sig tanking anything in a BS except maybe a dread. Last i checked, fleet phoon's aren't the go to ship to kill dreads either.

Lets say we do make a kiting nano phoon with autocannons. To try and take advantage of it being "faster, smaller, more agile" than the pest. The cookie cutter nano pest (modern one, not the old shield one) is 800mm, x2 nano's AAR, heavy neuts, cap booster and MJD. The phoon simply cannot fit what a pest or pest FI can because its about 3k-3.5k short on grid. Making identical fits between them, this is the result http://imgur.com/mBNDFyq.

Short of putting in a T2 Large ACR or sacrificing a low for an RCU, you cannot fit heavy neuts, and you cannot fit MJD because you simply don't have the grid. You can't even take advantage of the missile bonus, because you still don't have the grid to fit RHML in the empty utility highs. (Did you take that into account when assuming you can fit autocannons and missiles on a dedicated PvP ship?). Hint: When kiting with a battleship, heavy neuts > utility missiles like RHML. Least for solo, small gang you can get away with having a max dps fleet phoon. So there might be some merit there, but still pretty niche. The best i could come up with is a 650mm fit with RHML pushing around 925 dps with small drones (kiting, remember?). T1 pest gets 965dps with just guns and drones.

Now, i'm sure you'll say "but the drone bay man, you're missing the drone bay comparison!". Remember, we're talking about a KITE typhoon, unbonused heavies/sentries are not a good idea to kite with. Most of the time mediums or smalls are the best choice while kiting. Which the pest and pest FI have plenty of bay/bandwidth to make that happen.

As you can see in the image though, the typhoon Fi has to sacrifice slots to make it work even half decently, which reduces speed/agility mods. This brings the Tempest FI to identical agility levels of the phoon FI, and a very negligible speed difference (roughly 50m/s).

How does the Typhoon FI have an additional utility high over a t1 tempest or tempest FI? They all have 2 utility highs and 6 weapon slots. We aren't comparing the typhoon FI to the t1 typhoon.

I've yet to see a good fit that uses both missiles and guns that isn't a polarized fit for structure bashing. Maybe in PVE, but wouldn't it just be better to use a rattle at that point? They're both about the same price. Regardless though, i suppose a point could made for PVE.

Malcanis wrote:
It has 9.6 effective turrets vs the Fleet Pest's 10 - a whole 4% less base turret DPS, albeit also with a worse alpha. But honestly, no one is flying fleet Tempests over phoons because they do 4% better base AC DPS. They're flying fleet tempests because brawling BS in general don't often work in the current "kite all the things!" meta, and people quite reasonably want to use arty in that environment, and the pest is definitely better as an arty platform.


People are flying fleet tempests in a fleet role because they can pack 150-200k EHP with 1400's. You cannot do that with a phoon FI. You can also brawl better using a tempest FI than a phoon FI, because of the generous PG of the fleet pest. I would much rather brawl with a RHML typhoon FI than a autocannon typhoon FI or tempest FI though FWIW.

However, triple repped 1800dps tank tempest FI is fun under the right conditions. Again, something the phoon FI simply cannot due because of its PG limitations.

Malcanis wrote:
The phoon is a substandard turret platform because BS ACs are a substandard turret. That's not a justification to remove the turret slots. (One might equally reasonably suggest that CCP remove the Typhoon's missile slots because no one's using them for torps!)


How did you come to that conclusion? Battleship a/c's are great, they just suffer from being a BS turret which doesn't jive well in the current meta. But as someone who flies tempests and typhoons frequently, its still quite viable to fly pests in a kite configuration thanks to dual heavy neuts and ample grid to fit everything i need. Plus having 960+ dps on tap that shoots out to 42km. So you'll need to elaborate on large a/c's being bad, because my experience shows that they are far from it. Mach's are one of the best BS in the game for autocannon kiting. T1 pest isn't far behind either imo.

To clarify, i never said to remove the gun slots, i simply said to remove the gun bonus in favor of something that isn't outperformed by other ships in the same class/faction.

Malcanis wrote:
Nor would it necessarily lead to the fleet Typhoon getting additional missile power. The fleet phoon has the bonuses it has for a very specific reason: to allow it to be fully effective as a gun platform or as a missile platform - to preserve that versatility that was the originbal Typhoon's trademark. Losing those turret slots wouldn't gun it anything, and would lose it that versatility. That would be a goddamb shame.


Thats just it though, its not effective as a gun platform, its a gimmick. The T1 pest and Pest FI are arguably better gun platforms for similar roles. Even the T1 pest setup as max dps gets similar numbers as typhoon FI with heavy drones and guns.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2016-03-09 08:48:35 UTC
Re: sig tanking: With Halos and fleet boosts, and a little X-Instinct, you can get the phoons sig down to 156m. At that size you're seeing real damage reductions, especially from a fleet BS's deadliest enemy, bombs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#40 - 2016-03-09 12:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Gun bonus is obsolete and not used CCP should look at is asap.

I favor complete removal of it in favor of tweaking missiles or drone side of ship.

Otherwise both typhoons are fine.


If the floons gun bonus isn't good enough to make it a good gunboat, that's a problem wither the guns, not the boat.


If the guns were a problem then the pest/pest FI would have the same issue but they don't. They perform fine, and can fit everything without a problem, unlike the typhoon FI.

The phoon FI's gun bonus is useless and is outclassed by both the T1 pest and tempest FI. Even in an all out structure bash with polarized torps and polarized 800mm's, the typhoon FI only edges out the T1 pest (with same fitting) by 150ish dps. That is including 5 T2 Ogre's on the phoon FI. So you want to spend an extra 250-300m on a typhoon FI just so you can do 150 more dps in a structure bash?

Otherwise, the t1 pest and pest FI bring the same thing to the table that the phoon FI brings (with guns), and do it better, as well as cheaper.

W0lf Crendraven wrote:
good stuff about why the FI phoon is a good missile ship


From my perspective, the phoon FI is a great RHML ship, probably only outclassed by the barghest. It does well at brawling with RHML, or even kiting with RHML. But when looking at cruise or torps, the T1 phoon is a better match, which i'm a bit at odds with.

My issue with the phoon FI is that its gun bonus is completely useless when comparing it to the t1 pest or pest FI. I'd much prefer to see its bonuses both change to missile bonuses. No one uses the phoon FI for guns because its not good and has no role that the pest/pest FI don't already fill. Hell it doesn't even have the grid to fit a cookie cutter AAR kite fit like the pests do.


Malcanis have a point on this AC,s are a problem after all gun side of ship is not being used not because ppl are missile fans but rather coz missiles work AC do not.

Not as a singular bonus they are simply overnerfed by ccp

T1 pest works because 6 guns 7.5 rof and 5 dmg

Fl pest works because 6 guns 5 rof and 5 dmg( not really it works due to faction class tank it need buff like t1 pest got all faction ships got that type of tank but non bar Ftempest was left to rot over a decade of updating other faction ships regularly and radically )

Fl phoon don't work because 6 guns 7.5 rof is single dmg buff and AC will never work like that not to mention no dmg bonus means no alpha in both AC and Arty fits(yes it matters in both).

But all that aside and wishful thinking aside Floon will never be viable gun platform because buffing gun side adding dual bonuses to it will not happen giving 10% rof bonus will not happen and adding pg to fit gun side properly will not happen either just because all that spare pg would make missile fits stupidly OP 3ple plate 3ple reps OPness.

THERE IS NO GOD DAMN SYNERGY among weapon systems no amount of "we wanted to make this ship WHATEVER" matters further more any buff to AC's will step on tempest /fleet tempest /maelstrom <= this is a reason alone to stop with a bullcrap.

NO its not ok to leave it just BECAUSE.

YES it can be swapped to pure missile and or drone tweaks large drone bandwidth is one thing(eft warfare) bonus-ed drones are quite another.

As Stitch mentions RHML Floon is ok torp or cruise not so much add attempt to augment drone side of a ship(you know to start using that magical wonderland eft number) by a bit and all of a sudden things do not look so great.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

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