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Loki Offensive - Hardpoint Efficiency Configuration

Author
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#1 - 2016-03-01 17:15:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Current Subsystem Skill Bonus:

7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret rate of fire per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire per level

Proposal:

5.0% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher damage per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire per level*

All other stats to subsystem to remain same

Reasoning is simple there is no synergy among weapon systems one require high CPU one high PWG

Damage from single weapon systems are anemic at best and combining missiles guns and drones is also mediocre considering you are making joke fit at that point.

Autocannons will never be good with single bonus to them period, but missiles have a chance if changes above pass so loki can have one if not good at least usable missile platform.

Further more there is decent AC sub and one can say almost same for arty sub there is simply no greater need for keeping split weapon sub.fate of those is already seen in game Fleet typhoon ship is by massive margin ie north of 99.99% used as missile ship and that one is not limited to 4(per weapn. type) weapon hard points as well

I don't think drone side of sub should be buffed in any way and this change kinda seem to me easiest for devs to pull of.

*5% rof if missile hard points count is more than 4 or dps is to damn high.

Opinions away!

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#2 - 2016-03-01 18:08:33 UTC
iv actually been meaning to play around with that sub,
ham loki sounds like it could be fun ... moar murder testing required !
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#3 - 2016-03-01 18:12:15 UTC
That sub is particularly bad. I agree that it should be a HAM-focused subsystem.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#4 - 2016-03-01 18:18:11 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
iv actually been meaning to play around with that sub,
ham loki sounds like it could be fun ... moar murder testing required !



its gonna be "short" test

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#5 - 2016-03-01 18:19:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
FT Diomedes wrote:
That sub is particularly bad. I agree that it should be a HAM-focused subsystem.


Agreed its not like autos subs are not there but this one is just ridiculous.


Edit

I don't look at this change as loss of anything but rather buff to a sub in dire need of doing so only thing is not to over do it so that loki land in exact spot fleet phoon is

Ie everybody and their mother forgot there were ever AC subs on a loki just the thing i don't want to.

So make sub trailing others making it an option rather then equal.....

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

MAS0RAKSH
Doomheim
#6 - 2016-03-01 18:54:41 UTC
Im waiting for legion tonget proper ewar sub:

Elec: minus nos/neut, add 10% td bonus
Covert: bonus nos/neut range and amount, +75 drone bay
Drone: bonus nos/neut range and amount.

So when legion gets some loving... loki get some loving.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#7 - 2016-03-01 18:59:27 UTC
MAS0RAKSH wrote:
Im waiting for legion tonget proper ewar sub:

Elec: minus nos/neut, add 10% td bonus
Covert: bonus nos/neut range and amount, +75 drone bay
Drone: bonus nos/neut range and amount.

So when legion gets some loving... loki get some loving.


Yeah legion can be looked at as well.drone sub as well drone space is neat but bandwidth isn't all things considering.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2016-03-01 19:25:36 UTC
Sounds like something taken from the old Naglfar bonuses... the current one I mean.
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-03-02 08:33:07 UTC
Yes and no (yes again), the hardpoint fit is kinda good-ish where it stands, you can still make 710 dps out of it, or opt in for rapid lights for more/less.
The issue of introducing a decent missile loki is essentially replacing the Tengu, which sits on top of shield despite the loki inherent resistance profile pretty much because of this.
Yes tengu is OP and I honestly love the graphical design of the HER sub and hate that it is stupid and will never really be used.
But since the missile launcher operation is enforced as a prereQ for the subsystems in general for loki, I would encourage it.

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016

Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#10 - 2016-03-02 13:29:19 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Current Subsystem Skill Bonus:

7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret rate of fire per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire per level

Proposal:

5.0% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher damage per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire per level*

All other stats to subsystem to remain same


you really mean 3 launcher hardpointsQuestion
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#11 - 2016-03-02 14:02:30 UTC
Uriam Khanid wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Current Subsystem Skill Bonus:

7.5% bonus to medium projectile turret rate of fire per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire per level

Proposal:

5.0% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher damage per level
7.5% bonus to Heavy, Heavy Assault and Rapid Light Missile Launcher rate of fire per level*

All other stats to subsystem to remain same


you really mean 3 launcher hardpointsQuestion


Yes sub it self give 3, total is 4 per weapon type in any given sub combination involving Hard point sub would not change that up or down but that's just pref of mine.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#12 - 2016-03-02 15:14:39 UTC
No, the other thing that subsystem needs to provide is a reasonable number of hard points for missiles.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Ghaustyl Kathix
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2016-03-02 17:26:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghaustyl Kathix
I'm not sure I can agree with this. There's two other two missile-focused setups for T3s, the Tengu and Legion. How is this going to be distinct from these two? "Because I trained Minmatar and not Amarr/Caldari" isn't a good reason.

I agree that subsystem needs an overhaul, though. If not an overhaul to the subsystem's bonuses, then a change to the CPU and power grid it gives, because the fitting is just too tight for this to really work.
Mina Sebiestar
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#14 - 2016-03-02 19:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mina Sebiestar
Ghaustyl Kathix wrote:
I'm not sure I can agree with this. There's two other two missile-focused setups for T3s, the Tengu and Legion. How is this going to be distinct from these two? "Because I trained Minmatar and not Amarr/Caldari" isn't a good reason.

I agree that subsystem needs an overhaul, though. If not an overhaul to the subsystem's bonuses, then a change to the CPU and power grid it gives, because the fitting is just too tight for this to really work.



Quote:
No, the other thing that subsystem needs to provide is a reasonable number of hard points for missiles.


I will try to answer both of you.

How I look at suggested changes are as follow only four missile hard points are there to ensure dps will not get on Legion / Tengu turf not just for the sake of those ships roles but more importantly so not to kill of AC / ART subs because if a missile system is implemented as high dps alternative to gun subsystems people will flock to it.

My proposal remove 3 way weapon system split in favor of missile/drone due to already heaving two gun subs and not just buffing all ship stats to accommodate such bad synergy among the three.

My 5% dmg option is there to offset loss of gun dps that you now do not fit in favor of med neuts so while I expect dmg to remain lowish at least you have base for proper pvp setup sure it will take forever to break many ships but this way it is a valid option to some and most importantly it does not mess with other missile t3 and loki own subsystems.

But gentleman's I am in favor of doing anything as long as we start the ball rollin sub like this here are not being used for a reason and there are others out there too so drop your ideas let's go or make a clear remark why these subs should not be looked at.

You choke behind a smile a fake behind the fear

Because >>I is too hard

Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-03-02 19:47:29 UTC
Don't forget that sub provides you with a 40m3 drone bay.
Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-03-02 20:43:46 UTC
I would balance it so it sits at where tengu is although slightly lower to be compensated for by drones and possible two extra guns. atm Tengu is too good, loki could do better.

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#17 - 2016-03-03 03:30:35 UTC
In terms of raw DPS, the HAM Legion and HAM Loki should be as good as the HAM Tengu is when using non-kinetic missiles. Then, give the HAM Loki sub 30mbit drone bandwidth and 30m3 drone bay. Give the HAM Legion sub 25mbit and 50m3. Thus, the Tengu would retain its DPS advantage when using kinetic missiles, while the other two present more flexible options. Additionally, the HAM Legion would be well-suited to armor tanking, while the HAM Loki could swing either way. As far as PVP fits are concerned, these could be fine ships due to resistance profiles and potentially utility high slots. They would also present some interesting options on the PVE front versus Angels, rogue drones, blood raiders, sanshas, etc.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2016-03-06 18:28:32 UTC
Why does tengu deserve the dps advantage anyway?

Come get some cancer @ my blog !

"This clash of opinions is like cutting onions. We are creating something here, that's productive, ...and then there is also salt." -Wimzy 2016

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#19 - 2016-03-06 19:07:31 UTC
Wimzy Chent-Shi wrote:
Why does tengu deserve the dps advantage anyway?


The Tengu deserves the kinetic lock on its damage bonus. The Loki and Legion would get their extra DPS from the drone bay.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Aeryn Maricadie
Magister Mortalis.
#20 - 2016-03-07 22:30:49 UTC
HAM Legions and Drone Loki's always seemed like a bad concept to me. It requires cross training into different weapon categories that dont fit with the rest of the racial ships, meaning lots more skill training time for those ships. Whereas the missle/hybrid Tengu and Drone/Hybrid Proteus fit their racial archetypes properly. I know it will mess with a lot of players currently, but it seems to me that there should be a good missle Loki (As OP poionted out the hard point sub can be modified for this), and a good Legion Drone boat (instead of missle sub)
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