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T2 BPO Invention
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Sasha Mayaki
Florida Milita
#1 - 2016-02-13 13:41:31 UTC
Hi All,

I'm a casual reader of the forums and haven't seen an idea on this. Please, pardon me if my idea below has been brought up before.

I would like to propose being able to invent T2 BPO's based off their T1 BPO counterparts.

Let me use the Condor/Crow invention as an example:

Currently, the base stats to invent a Crow off of a Condor BPC are:
17 hours 45 minutes base time to do one invention
30.0% base chance of success

Skills Required to Perform the Invention:
High Energy Physics Level I
Caldari Starship Engineering Level I
Caldari Encryption Methods Level I

2 Datacore - High Energy Physics
2 Datacore - Caldari Starship Engineering

This is what I Propose:
- For each Invention try, you will need to use a T1 BPO. So if you want to do 10 inventions of the Crow, you need to purchase 10 Condor BPO's.
- Increase the base time to do one invention to 10 times what the current base invention time is for the BPC. For this example, it would become 177 hours 30 minutes to do one invention try.
- Decrease the base chance of success by 80%. So, the base chance of success would become 6% for this case.
- Increase the skill requirements to be level V. So High Energy Physics, Caldari Starship Engineering, and Caldari Encryption Methods would all have to be level V to attempt this invention.
- Don't allow the use of Decryptors to invent the T2 BPO's.

The goal would be to make it very painful and time consuming to successfully complete a T2 BPO invention so they don't flood the market and yet still give industrialists the opportunity of a lifetime to score on inventing an extremely difficult T2 BPO like a marauder.

Please, let me know your thoughts.

Regards,

Duck
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#2 - 2016-02-13 14:58:21 UTC
No.

Remove all the existing t2 bpos instead.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-02-13 16:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Sasha Mayaki wrote:


Please, let me know your thoughts.

Regards,

Duck


Horrible idea that can't be salvaged. Invention is in a pretty good place, leave it alone.

Quote:

The goal would be to make it very painful and time consuming to successfully complete a T2 BPO invention so they don't flood the market and yet still give industrialists the opportunity of a lifetime to score on inventing an extremely difficult T2 BPO like a marauder.


It wouldn't be the opportunity of a lifetime, it would be an inevitability for the vast majority of BPOs.

You would pretty much eliminate the need for any established producer to invent within a year or two.

The whole ******* point of invention was that the T2 blueprint creation mechanic should be a process of consumption. Your idea is basically, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could eliminate all that pesky, demand-driving consumption from the economy on a long enough timeline? Right? Guys ?!?"

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2016-02-13 17:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sasha Mayaki wrote:


Please, let me know your thoughts.

Regards,

Duck


Horrible idea that can't be salvaged. Invention is in a pretty good place, leave it alone.

Quote:

The goal would be to make it very painful and time consuming to successfully complete a T2 BPO invention so they don't flood the market and yet still give industrialists the opportunity of a lifetime to score on inventing an extremely difficult T2 BPO like a marauder.


It wouldn't be the opportunity of a lifetime, it would be an inevitability for the vast majority of BPOs.

You would pretty much eliminate the need for any established producer to invent within a year or two.

The whole ******* point of invention was that the T2 blueprint creation mechanic should be a process of consumption. Your idea is basically, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could eliminate all that pesky, demand-driving consumption from the economy on a long enough timeline? Right? Guys ?!?"


I have to agree.


What problem is this suggestion intended to fix? What benefit will this suggestion add to the game?

As for the specifics....

So, lets take your chance of success. Now, that, rather obviously, implies a probability of failure of 0.94. So, Lets say I have 3 alts doing invention and each one can to 10 invention jobs. My chance of failing in all 30 instances is 0.94^30. That is actually a much smaller number. Now my chance of total failure--i.e. failure on all 30 trials--is just a meager 0.1562. If I do it again now my chance is 0.0244. In other words, my chance of success after about 2 weeks of work is 0.976. Wow, what a chance in a life time.

Further, T2 BPOs are not very good in that they have the potential to drive out invention and it will likely drive down profit margins.

Keep in mind markets are dynamic not static. As "technology" changes the market will change as well, and what you are suggesting here is a change in terms of technology. So if you are sitting there thinking, wow if they implemented this it would be great for me. Probably not nearly as much as you think. Nothing would stop me and my alts, SurrenderMonkey and his alts, and everyone else from doing this. Soon we'd all be competing with T2 BPOs not invention and whatever profit margin exists would be reduced since T2 BPOs are more efficient. Think of it this way, if you decide to go to your bank and withdraw all your money it is not a problem. If every depositor showed up at the same time and made the same demand there would be a run on the bank due to fractional reserves. What looks great for the individual may not be great for everyone if they all do it at the same time.

The current market is working just fine. We don't need a technological change, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2016-02-13 18:58:04 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
No.

Remove all the existing t2 bpos instead.


Not empty quoting.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Gliese Casserres
Confused Bunnies Inc
#6 - 2016-02-13 23:23:02 UTC
Agreed. T2 needs no BPO's. If there were more of them, nobody would get any profit from T2 items. Even now there are way too many players at T2 markets leading to bad profits.
Faelune
Tous Pour Un
#7 - 2016-02-14 00:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Faelune
How to tell... Politely... Therefore,
The today mechanics for this type of tech 2 bpc is already a mess for any logic memory brain and a sort of insult to any producer Irl..
Yours is the worst I saw in 24 hours.

When you learn a draw by heart. You forget it? Never. You don't need to try again to learn the same.
Zylona Femtov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-02-28 16:32:52 UTC
T2 BPO are a nonsense, they should have been remove long ago.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#9 - 2016-02-28 16:37:09 UTC
Zylona Femtov wrote:
T2 BPO are a nonsense, they should have been remove long ago.



.... why did you dog this back up just to say what's already said

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Decarthado Aurgnet
Imperial Combat Engineers
#10 - 2016-02-28 19:24:51 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
You would pretty much eliminate the need for any established producer to invent within a year or two.

The whole ******* point of invention was that the T2 blueprint creation mechanic should be a process of consumption. Your idea is basically, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could eliminate all that pesky, demand-driving consumption from the economy on a long enough timeline? Right? Guys ?!?"


The "demand-driving consuption" you're talking about is a petty amount of isk for the seller in terms of isk per month and it's a tiny fraction of the overall cost of producing T2 anything. Your point is invalid. Remove T2 BPO's entirely and shift completely to invention or permit T2 BPO's to be created at some obscenely high cost.

Remove T2 BPO's or make them inventable at extreme cost.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-02-28 20:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Decarthado Aurgnet wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
You would pretty much eliminate the need for any established producer to invent within a year or two.

The whole ******* point of invention was that the T2 blueprint creation mechanic should be a process of consumption. Your idea is basically, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could eliminate all that pesky, demand-driving consumption from the economy on a long enough timeline? Right? Guys ?!?"


The "demand-driving consuption" you're talking about is a petty amount of isk for the seller in terms of isk per month and it's a tiny fraction of the overall cost of producing T2 anything. Your point is invalid.


Invention accounts for 5-15% of the total production cost of most modules and rigs. For many of these, this cost alone more than matches the margin on the item.

Ships and the larger, high-demand rigs (e.g., large and capital trimarks) are about the only area where invention cost per run doesn't represent a significant fraction of the total production cost. This is mostly down to the material costs for the larger sizes of those items scaling at a rate that FAR outpaces the invention costs, relative to the smaller items (e.g., small trimark rig -> capital trimark rig invention has about a 5x increase in invention costs, but a 95x increase in material requirements).


BPOs are mostly collector's relics at this point, with little significant impact on the overall market. Calls to remove them generally have more to do with butthurt than any actual balance concern.

BPO invention does not have a snowball's chance in hell of ever happening.

If anything, invention costs should simply scale more closely to production costs. This would likely make those data sites everyone is constantly whinging about a good deal more valuable, as well. ;)

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2016-02-28 20:06:28 UTC
Decarthado Aurgnet wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
You would pretty much eliminate the need for any established producer to invent within a year or two.

The whole ******* point of invention was that the T2 blueprint creation mechanic should be a process of consumption. Your idea is basically, "Hey, wouldn't it be great if we could eliminate all that pesky, demand-driving consumption from the economy on a long enough timeline? Right? Guys ?!?"


The "demand-driving consuption" you're talking about is a petty amount of isk for the seller in terms of isk per month and it's a tiny fraction of the overall cost of producing T2 anything. Your point is invalid. Remove T2 BPO's entirely and shift completely to invention or permit T2 BPO's to be created at some obscenely high cost.



No. Go check your math. The creation of T2 BPCs for modules is around 10% of the costs when looking at just datacores alone. Factoring in the cost of BPCs, researching, and copying will only add to those costs, both accounting costs and opportunity costs.

There is also an ISK sink aspect of this too.

So, no...just no to your idea. It is bad.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#13 - 2016-02-28 22:43:20 UTC
T2 BPO's got nerfed into the ground already. should tell you that they are unliked

if your wondering how they got nerfed, firstly their production time got trashed. T2 bpo used to produce 100 T2 cruisers a month, now your lucky if its 30.
Secondly, they used to have a much much better material efficiency over bpc's. a T2 bpo would potentially use 60% less materials over a bpc. CCP fixed this with the rebalance, now its possible to get a bpc to me8 when a bpo will be at 10. the 60% margin is now 2% at a vastly reduced production speed.

its hardly worth the effort to use a T2 bpo over invention. the 2% material cost saving... you save more by using a pos tower, which you aint going to put a T2 bpo into... plus your so limited on runs per month now its silly.

a bpo that used to make 30b a month profit is now down at 1.5 / 2b a month... barely enough to cover the plex to run the toon to produce with. you can make more through invention.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#14 - 2016-02-29 00:24:00 UTC
If the recurring costs of invention were to be tied into the production side of T2 items, then being able to invent T2 BPOs would be plausible. But with the OP suggestion of essentially making the invention of the T2 BPO itself into a giant time/isk sink is not the way to balance it because it creates a 1 time cost of the items.

The issue would be how would you create T2 BPCs while still making it competitive to create them from a T1 BPC so that people with T2 BPOs do not corner the market.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#15 - 2016-02-29 00:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Hopelesshobo wrote:
If the recurring costs of invention were to be tied into the production side of T2 items, then being able to invent T2 BPOs would be plausible. But with the OP suggestion of essentially making the invention of the T2 BPO itself into a giant time/isk sink is not the way to balance it because it creates a 1 time cost of the items.

The issue would be how would you create T2 BPCs while still making it competitive to create them from a T1 BPC so that people with T2 BPOs do not corner the market.


"How do we return to the system invention replaced without recreating the problem invention solved?"

Why would you want to?

These ideas always seem to stem from jealousy over the existence of BPOs. OP doesn't have a BPO, OP can't afford a BPO, OP is mad about it, so OP dreams up a bad idea to get himself a BPO on the cheap.

There's no problem here to solve, except salving someone's irrational feefees over their lack of ownership of an irrelevant item.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#16 - 2016-02-29 01:26:34 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would you want to?


There are benefits to working with BPOs, just like there are benefits with working with BPCs. For me it would be more of my OCD kicking in where I would only need one T2 BPO of each item vs hundreds of various copies of random stuff laying around for most of the work I do.

Could do something along the lines of

T1 BPO --> invention --> T2 BPO (With the production requirement of datacores)
T1 BPO --> copy --> T2 BPC (With the production requirement of datacores)
T2 BPO --> copy+some sort of additional cost --> T2 BPC (With production requirement of datacores)

Something along that line is something that has potential, but not what the OP has suggested.

Really the only thing that couldn't be worked around is you don't have a recurring cost of tying up your research slots if you were to work off a T2 BPO. So how would you put that into a value, or would you just shrug off that cost like T1 BPO production can.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#17 - 2016-02-29 01:32:33 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would you want to?


There are benefits to working with BPOs, just like there are benefits with working with BPCs.


No, you're speaking on a personal level. Why would anyone want to make that change for the game?

What's the actual benefit?

Calming some guy's OCD doesn't really rank as a legit reason to change anything. There are a ton of things in production that could use a lot of work, but this isn't one of them.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#18 - 2016-02-29 01:56:58 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


No, you're speaking on a personal level. Why would anyone want to make that change for the game?

What's the actual benefit?

Calming some guy's OCD doesn't really rank as a legit reason to change anything. There are a ton of things in production that could use a lot of work, but this isn't one of them.


It would better mirror the system for T1 production? TBH I don't really care. Just because the BPO lottery system that CCP pushed out originally was terrible, doesn't automatically mean that all T2 BPOs are bad. They only become bad if they become unobtainable if they still exist in the game, but I would rather not see things removed from the game because version 1.0 was terrible.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2016-02-29 04:29:28 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

Why would you want to?


There are benefits to working with BPOs, just like there are benefits with working with BPCs. For me it would be more of my OCD kicking in where I would only need one T2 BPO of each item vs hundreds of various copies of random stuff laying around for most of the work I do.


Doing something to deal with your OCD is not good game design.

End of discussion.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2016-02-29 04:48:59 UTC
Hopelesshobo wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


No, you're speaking on a personal level. Why would anyone want to make that change for the game?

What's the actual benefit?

Calming some guy's OCD doesn't really rank as a legit reason to change anything. There are a ton of things in production that could use a lot of work, but this isn't one of them.


It would better mirror the system for T1 production? TBH I don't really care. Just because the BPO lottery system that CCP pushed out originally was terrible, doesn't automatically mean that all T2 BPOs are bad. They only become bad if they become unobtainable if they still exist in the game, but I would rather not see things removed from the game because version 1.0 was terrible.


no they become bad because i can have an infinite run 10/20 t2 bp suddenly chips are worthless and a large number of T1 BPCs are worthless

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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