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Increase production time?

Author
ggfdgdfg
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-02-28 00:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: ggfdgdfg
I've tried to look at various items to produce and sell, I carefully pick items that have a good daily sale at a profitable rate. The same cycle has happened with every product, though. It seems that production of most items/ships is out doing demand.

Take ammo as a base example. You can chern out t1 and t2 ammo in it's hundreds of thousands, far more than can ever be consumed. As their is so much of it people constantly 0.1 until the profit margins are so small the only way you can increase profit is to increase production for volume sale simply enhancing the problem. Then some guy/multiple people seem to get sick of hving 300k of ammo not selling so appear to give up and dump it on a low unprofitable sell price. So somebody like me putting up a ''fair'' price for the materiel cost does not have a hope in hell selling the ammo because theirs always some other guy who has gave up or does not understand profit margins dumping 100's of K at a silly low price.

I have found similar issues with both t1/2 rigs, most ships and certainly most mods, particularly those that only require ore. their is a mass build up of sell orders that far out do demand anf then the vicious cycle of ''giver upers'' dump hordes of stock at prices that can not be rivaled. Those low ballers alone still often far out do daily demand.

Would it help to drastically increase production time across many items so that production falls in line with actual demand?. You would stand to produce half as much but because demands may not actually be fully met in some cases, you can expect low volume but higher profit margin rather than huge volume low profit margin (if you are lucky and constantly playing the 0.1 game where possible).

I'm not saying profit is impossible but the idea is to be a industrialist but I actually spend 99% of my industry time with trading wars. You can't simply make one thing due to the trading wars and nature of the over production rates, it seems you need to produce a vast amount of items so that some hit holes in the market when the others do not. Theirs nothing to fancy about it, just flood the market with as many different items that are popular ;/ hoping that in spike trading enough is bought up to chew through the low ballers and hit the profit margin orders.
0000000000ZERO0000000000
Zero Zentharis
#2 - 2016-02-28 01:47:43 UTC
Welcome to free market economy where is everything, including demand, is made by players. There is no overproduction in Eve. Last month, 5502 vexors died, and yet there are 5129 vexors on the market right now. People dumping stuff on the market is a que for you to buy it out and resell. If you want to sell bulk, try mailing list called Wholesale Trading.
Kyra Lee
Ixian Machines
#3 - 2016-02-28 03:48:45 UTC
One of the things they did in Crius was lower the production times on lots of items. They also made it easier to research TE which lowered production times even more. Lastly they lowered the bar of entry for getting into industry so lots more people tried it. All of these things combined increased the amount of supply in the game but the demand never really caught up to it.

There are a few things you can do as a producer. One is produce in smaller batches and then don't play the .01 isk game. Your items will eventually sell but it may take longer. Invest in a wider array of items. If you produce 50 different things you will feel less of an impact if one of them does not sell right away. Look at some of the medium sized businesses in the real world and see how they do things. It may give you an insight on how you can improve in eve.

As for your original question of increasing production times, I do feel that production times should be raised on most non capital items. It takes a little over 17 days to build an Orca but only 5 hours to build an Abbadon. Those numbers don't seem right to me.
ggfdgdfg
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2016-02-28 17:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ggfdgdfg
0000000000ZERO0000000000 wrote:
Welcome to free market economy where is everything, including demand, is made by players. There is no overproduction in Eve. Last month, 5502 vexors died, and yet there are 5129 vexors on the market right now. People dumping stuff on the market is a que for you to buy it out and resell. If you want to sell bulk, try mailing list called Wholesale Trading.


You also ironically overlook ''trader buy outs'' as a false indication of demand before suggesting doing just that. Not to mention the reason those very buy outs are possible is due to low balers derived from over production. I would not suggest the majority of low balers are clueless when it comes to profit margins. More likely they are traders pulling out of what is going to be a lengthy sell process and taking the loss due to the profit margin not justifying the sale time scale. Some people willing to do trade wars or hold out at the lowest possible profit rate will ofc make isk but with a lot more work and a lot more volume required. Most ''genuine'' industrialists (I use that word loosely) will not find production profitable time investment in it's own right.


Kyra Lee wrote:
One of the things they did in Crius was lower the production times on lots of items. They also made it easier to research TE which lowered production times even more. Lastly they lowered the bar of entry for getting into industry so lots more people tried it. All of these things combined increased the amount of supply in the game but the demand never really caught up to it.

There are a few things you can do as a producer. One is produce in smaller batches and then don't play the .01 isk game. Your items will eventually sell but it may take longer. Invest in a wider array of items. If you produce 50 different things you will feel less of an impact if one of them does not sell right away. Look at some of the medium sized businesses in the real world and see how they do things. It may give you an insight on how you can improve in eve.

As for your original question of increasing production times, I do feel that production times should be raised on most non capital items. It takes a little over 17 days to build an Orca but only 5 hours to build an Abbadon. Those numbers don't seem right to me.


Producing in smaller batches is something I have been doing. I did not allow myself to get sucked into the mass production on low profit margin side of it because you easily stand to lose out as so many clearly are already. The margins are too tight and people are too impatient thus dump it. As the skill barrier is so low to moderate for most of eve theirs always a fresh cycle of new people bulk producing, finding out it sucks.. then dumping mass amounts of items they've excitedly over produced in a last ditch effort to recoup some of the investment.

Ammo yet again as a base example. With mediocre skills you can invent on 3 lines and produce in another 3 on a continues cycle making some 100-150k t2 or some 200k+ t1 ammo per day casually. The only bottle neck is buy orders of the required production products. At any major trade hub acquiring the more expensive items do not have much bottle neck while they can use sell orders for the less expensive items that may.

You don't need to run any more numbers than that. Even at a conservative 50K t1 or t2 ammo per day that is more than you personally could use in any one day thus more than any other one person could use. As it stands, one person can produce enough ammo per day in optimal conditions to supply upward of 5 daily mission runners, easily.

They seriously need to fix the production ratios so that with max skills you stand to sustain a max of yourself and one other person per day in ammo amount and modules. As a basic example 20k cruise missiles or arty t2 is enough to sustain two people for a day (even that would still be too much because not everyone mission runs all day to use that bulk). With modules a similar strike can be met. One industrialist would stand to produce 2x t2 small mods per day with low skill. As his skills increase he can then produce 2x medium mods and further on 2x large mods.

With such a system one single industrialist can no longer mass produce items for far more people than is required. Larger corps would then have to split jobs and components etc between more corp members rather than one person or a few being able to do the majority of it all for the masses.

I would also suggest a component line item cap. For example one production line is specifically for ammo. Another for modules, another for components and another for ships. This would mean a player can no longer simply fill up every production slot with a single item (like multiple t2 ammo prints) and flood the market. With the advanced production skill sets perhaps he can buy skills books that allow him to specialize more into one item type and open up an extra production line for said item, etc.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#5 - 2016-02-28 17:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Production time really is not what is causing your problem. Increase production time and people will just parallelize more. I virtually never have all of my possible manu lines running - not even close.

Manufacturing is (and always has been, don't waste your breath blaming Crius) far too accessible. Building anything in the game requires only a fraction of the SP investment that using it requires. There has never been any need to specialize in any aspect of manufacturing, SP wise - every manufacturer is a generalist who can build nigh anything in a few months.

Hopefully the new structure model will address this to some degree, as it sounds like the one-pos-to-build-it-all landscape we currently have will be changing somewhat.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

ggfdgdfg
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2016-02-28 17:55:42 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Production time really is not what is causing your problem. Increase production time and people will just parallelize more. I virtually never have all of my possible manu lines running - not even close.

Manufacturing is (and always has been, don't waste your breath blaming Crius) far too accessible. Building anything in the game requires only a fraction of the SP investment that using it requires. There has never been any need to specialize in any aspect of manufacturing, SP wise - every manufacturer is a generalist who can build nigh anything in a few months.

Hopefully the new structure model will address this to some degree, as it sounds like the one-pos-to-build-it-all landscape we currently have will be changing somewhat.


I actually hope so.

The smaller components is another example. Yes met5 and R5 are a fairly lengthy train at first glance, until you realize they unlock the ability to fully research every component bpo I've cared to check up on. That cuts out any possibility that a player looking to produce components can make profit on them. Their are many various component types that IMO should be specialized into separately so that a player has to choose between that or using trade to acquire them instead. Atm it's a no brainer. Train those skills to L5 and do it all yourself.

Further more you don't even need to train and research those bpo's to produce them cheaper than are sold, or the ones I make atleast.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#7 - 2016-02-28 18:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
ggfdgdfg wrote:


I actually hope so.

The smaller components is another example. Yes met5 and R5 are a fairly lengthy train at first glance, until you realize they unlock the ability to fully research every component bpo I've cared to check up on. That cuts out any possibility that a player looking to produce components can make profit on them.


Buying researched prints is easy enough that making them harder to research wouldn't matter much. You can get just about any BPO for the NPC price + 100-200K per research hour of POS lab time.

The real problem there is that there is very little disparity in the requirements to build components, and the requirements to use components in building. If you can build something you can also build the parts for building the thing. Compare this to raw material: I have no direct access to moon mats, and I wouldn't train into mining if you put a gun to my head. This problem crops up almost everywhere there is an intermediate resource in Eve: Cap production (at least those BPs require a significant capital layout), Booster production (pretty much have to do the reaction step, there's no liquidity in the reaction products), etc.

If I want to build light neutron blasters, you better believe I'm building my own particle accelerators, though. The skills themselves are vertically integrated, so of course everyone's production chain is, as well. Consequently, T2 goods can often be more accurately thought of as a form of wholesale packaging for T2 components.


In "reality", it is frequently the case that the manufacture of intermediate goods and the manufacture of consumer goods have ****-all to do with each other. They do not require the same equipment or skills at all. Often, the intermediate goods are vastly more complicated. This is the case with pretty much any electronic good sold today.

Any jackass can assemble a PC, for instance. Building the intermediate good of a motherboard is far harder, and the actual semiconductors? Good god, that's probably billions in capital layout just for a foundry, never mind the R&D.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

ggfdgdfg
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2016-02-28 19:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ggfdgdfg
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
ggfdgdfg wrote:


I actually hope so.

The smaller components is another example. Yes met5 and R5 are a fairly lengthy train at first glance, until you realize they unlock the ability to fully research every component bpo I've cared to check up on. That cuts out any possibility that a player looking to produce components can make profit on them.


Buying researched prints is easy enough that making them harder to research wouldn't matter much. You can get just about any BPO for the NPC price + 100-200K per research hour of POS lab time.

The real problem there is that there is very little disparity in the requirements to build components, and the requirements to use components in building. If you can build something you can also build the parts for building the thing. Compare this to raw material: I have no direct access to moon mats, and I wouldn't train into mining if you put a gun to my head. This problem crops up almost everywhere there is an intermediate resource in Eve: Cap production (at least those BPs require a significant capital layout), Booster production (pretty much have to do the reaction step, there's no liquidity in the reaction products), etc.

If I want to build light neutron blasters, you better believe I'm building my own particle accelerators, though. The skills themselves are vertically integrated, so of course everyone's production chain is, as well. Consequently, T2 goods can often be more accurately thought of as a form of wholesale packaging for T2 components.


In "reality", it is frequently the case that the manufacture of intermediate goods and the manufacture of consumer goods have ****-all to do with each other. They do not require the same equipment or skills at all. Often, the intermediate goods are vastly more complicated. This is the case with pretty much any electronic good sold today.

Any jackass can assemble a PC, for instance. Building the intermediate good of a motherboard is far harder, and the actual semiconductors? Good god, that's probably billions in capital layout just for a foundry, never mind the R&D.


So what of the idea in limiting people to production line types? as in one for ammo, one for t1 mods, t2 mods, components, ships, pocos? etc.

I think it would be far better than allowing some guy to fill all production slots with as many ammo types or rig/mod types as he has. Collectively over the player base and more people like him, that floods market far too easily and very unpredictably.

With a single line cap you would have to look at the market and make a prediction call on what type of mod is best to make for that day/week. Maybe scourge hams are selling really well that week? I'll build some of those. Or.. I'll anticipate other industrialists thought just that so I'll predict and avoid the flood, I'll make explosive instead that are selling at lower volume but far less competition. That alone will help separate bad industrialists from the good.

Currently bad industrialists are spam building things blindly.. realizing they have failed too late.. then dumping it all on the market at low prices which then punish industrialists who actually know what they are doing. They will still be able to do that but at-least they are limited to one single line per item type then.
Before it is stated, often the ''dump'' prices are not worth the buy up effort when you factor in tax and added time to sell them on. Add to that the conveyor belt of people who fked up or gave up, dumping their goods.. you will get caught out by it. Besides, if I wanted to do that I would do it properly with actual buy order station trading and better margins/less risk.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#9 - 2016-02-28 20:33:40 UTC
ggfdgdfg wrote:


So what of the idea in limiting people to production line types? as in one for ammo, one for t1 mods, t2 mods, components, ships, pocos? etc.



Well, hopefully the new structures will address this through the limited availability of service module slots. This is exactly what has been suggested in some of the dev blogs, at least:


Dev Blog wrote:

Mainly dedicated to production and item assembly.

Service modules possibilities: manufacturing of modules, ammunition, components, fuel blocks, capital components, subsystems and ships, among other things. One module will be required for the manufacturing of each category mentioned above. This means manufacturing will be less generalized as it is currently working within Starbases.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

ggfdgdfg
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2016-02-28 23:28:44 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
ggfdgdfg wrote:


So what of the idea in limiting people to production line types? as in one for ammo, one for t1 mods, t2 mods, components, ships, pocos? etc.



Well, hopefully the new structures will address this through the limited availability of service module slots. This is exactly what has been suggested in some of the dev blogs, at least:


Dev Blog wrote:

Mainly dedicated to production and item assembly.

Service modules possibilities: manufacturing of modules, ammunition, components, fuel blocks, capital components, subsystems and ships, among other things. One module will be required for the manufacturing of each category mentioned above. This means manufacturing will be less generalized as it is currently working within Starbases.


Ah great, guess I'll do something else till then. Thnx.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#11 - 2016-03-01 14:30:33 UTC
yes, overproduction became a serious problem since crius, when production times were halved for many items + lowered entry barriers for noobs, so everyone started building.
At the moment, its a common thing that buying off market dumps is cheaper than building yourself. CCP has to address this somehow, because those changes killed a whole and interesting aspect of the game.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2016-03-01 16:55:11 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
ggfdgdfg wrote:


Ah great, guess I'll do something else till then. Thnx.


That seems like an over reaction. I should add that, while I'm not really happy with where production is right now, I can't say I'm really suffering the problems you're describing.

Even with the incessant downtime yesterday, I've still done just shy of 1.1 billion in sales in the last 24 hours. Margins varied from 9% to 45%, and, in aggregate, averaged 19.6%. All material prices calculated as the sell-order price on that, btw.

In fairness, some of that sat for a while before lower-priced inventory cleared out, but I also have an atypically low amount of inventory up for sale right now (the limiting factor, there, being that I'm lazy). There are always a few things waiting for oversupply to clear out, but spread across 70-100 different items, it's just not that big of a deal, provided you yourself have not overproduced a dog item.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

ggfdgdfg
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2016-03-03 00:09:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ggfdgdfg
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
ggfdgdfg wrote:


Ah great, guess I'll do something else till then. Thnx.


That seems like an over reaction. I should add that, while I'm not really happy with where production is right now, I can't say I'm really suffering the problems you're describing.

Even with the incessant downtime yesterday, I've still done just shy of 1.1 billion in sales in the last 24 hours. Margins varied from 9% to 45%, and, in aggregate, averaged 19.6%. All material prices calculated as the sell-order price on that, btw.

In fairness, some of that sat for a while before lower-priced inventory cleared out, but I also have an atypically low amount of inventory up for sale right now (the limiting factor, there, being that I'm lazy). There are always a few things waiting for oversupply to clear out, but spread across 70-100 different items, it's just not that big of a deal, provided you yourself have not overproduced a dog item.


It's not about big numbers, I don't care about making 1bil over night. What it comes down to is that I can't simply pick a hand full of items and be a ''part time'' industrialist. If the market gets dumped on for the type of items I produce it's game over for me. I've held my prices at a reasonable price but the shear continuous amount of low balers see's my orders get close to top.. but then knocked back again by the week's end and new cycle of folk who can't calculate a reasonable profit margin if any at all.

I don't want to start producing 30+ different items, I understand it will mean some will sell when others don't but I also understand it will make me a complete slave to industry and station trading to maintain that mass production rate. Industry right now is an all or nothing deal. theirs too many newbs spitting out items with ought doing the math so that part time industrialists like me can't compete, ever.
Asinae Antaelis
#14 - 2016-03-11 22:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Asinae Antaelis
To me every game where crafting is fighting the npc loot is bad...

I would like npc to not drop functionnal stuff but to drop modification item that you eventually plug in T1 item to obtain the actual equivalent of meta level 1+ item (lower CPU / lower PG / lower cap consumption / better range ...)
This way you didn't decredibilize T1 manufacturing !
and each race could have special modification:
amarr would drop PG bonus mod
caldari -> CPU
etc...
so if you want a gun with low PG requirement, you will plug in an amarr mod for example...

With this kind of mecanism:
- missionners/ratters would still have things to loot and sell
- industrilaists would not compete with missionners for stuff to sell

Production time is a thing, but not the only one!
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#15 - 2016-03-15 18:25:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Iria Ahrens
Robert Caldera wrote:
yes, overproduction became a serious problem since crius, when production times were halved for many items + lowered entry barriers for noobs, so everyone started building.
At the moment, its a common thing that buying off market dumps is cheaper than building yourself. CCP has to address this somehow, because those changes killed a whole and interesting aspect of the game.


It is not "at the moment"

Buying off market dumps will always be cheaper than building it yourself, and always has been. Nothing will change that except maybe implementing a minimum sell price that is equal or slightly higher than the BIY price. People have buy orders for T2 ships like Paladins at less than 1000 isk, and they get filled. Eventually.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.