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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Game Design Discussion

First post
Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2016-02-27 03:24:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
This is not features and ideas.
I am going to outline the way that I see the game going:

ArrowShallow.

ISD apparently doesn't want this backed up with examples.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#2 - 2016-02-27 03:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Blah blah blah, Lots of tears and faint violin music. Cry

And yes, this is features and ideas material.

Daemun of Khanid

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2016-02-27 04:02:07 UTC
It feels so very odd for someone to profess so strongly that they understand completely what Eve is, yet suggest the solution to the deviation from their vision is to rip the game in half. Further one half is a completely incoherent and self contradicting freak show of a game.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#4 - 2016-02-27 04:02:46 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
And yes, this is features and ideas material.
No. It outlines the direction the game is going:

Shallow.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#5 - 2016-02-27 04:13:36 UTC
Looks like some Features and IDEAS.

Thread moved.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Ashterothi
Kybernauts
#6 - 2016-02-27 04:43:20 UTC
Funny I have used that same video in several arguments about how EVE needs to reduce complexity in it's UI.

I would argue that the game is not becoming more shallow by this measure.

The only mechanics that have been removed are sloppy mechanics that reduce the ability to have a well tuned game. Intuitive systems are less complex, and as that video demonstrates, lower complexity is good.

However, several NEW features have been added, and are being added to increase depth. Command Destroyers, changes made in module tiericide, capital squadrons command, Skill injectors, Project Discovery, to name a few have all either increased EVEs depth in recent months, or will soon.

Null sec sov combat seems hollow at the moment, however that is because ownership of land is only half the puzzle, once Citadels and other structures come, we will see even more depth to the overall combat of EVE.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#7 - 2016-02-27 04:47:25 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
I would argue that the game is not becoming more shallow by this measure..
Examples got this thread sent to the forum grave yard.

There is nothing to argue.
We are not to discuss it.

"Be quiet and enjoy" + the childish and empty game that EVE will become.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2016-02-27 04:50:58 UTC
Apparently GD is the only location discussion can occur? Sure the general premise may be GD worthy, but the proposal which punctuates the post puts it just as much in F&I territory.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#9 - 2016-02-27 04:53:41 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Apparently GD is the only location discussion can occur? Sure the general premise may be GD worthy, but the proposal which punctuates the post puts it just as much in F&I territory.
Go re-read your posts.
I see your icon and ignore.

You are passive aggressive and tedious.
You argue the most semantic and silly nonsense.

I do not care about your opinion.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-02-27 04:58:20 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Apparently GD is the only location discussion can occur? Sure the general premise may be GD worthy, but the proposal which punctuates the post puts it just as much in F&I territory.
Go re-read your posts.
I see your icon and ignore.

You are passive aggressive and tedious.
You argue the most semantic and silly nonsense.

I do not care about your opinion.
Ok, doesn't stop me from pointing out how melodramatic you're being over a thread being moved to a place it arguably belongs.

Nor does it or even should it keep me from criticizing any ideas presented.
Iain Cariaba
#11 - 2016-02-27 05:39:34 UTC
Posting in a stealth "EvE is dying" thread.

Yes, EvE is a complex game if you look at it from the standpoint of the entire game. The great thing about EvE, however, is that you're not subjected to the entire game at once, at any given time. PvE is not complex by itself, nor is industry or exploration. Yes, PvP can be complicated to learn, but if you take it in sections, IE divide it by ship size or weapon types, then it isn't very complicated either.

The depth in EvE comes from the other players, not from some artificial system like most other games. That's a trait of a good sandbox game. If you find EvE lacking in depth, then you need to take a look at the people you're playing the game with, as they're the 2nd most likely culprit for this.

tl;dr - If you think EvE is overly complex, you're trying to hard. If you think EvE is shallow, you're in the wrong group.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#12 - 2016-02-27 05:42:54 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
...
Dead thread.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Iain Cariaba
#13 - 2016-02-27 05:47:36 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
...
Dead thread.

Nope, still quite open, and others seem to disagree with you.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#14 - 2016-02-27 06:32:01 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
...lower complexity is good...


For?

Ashterothi wrote:
However, several NEW features have been added, and are being added to decrease depth...Skill injectors.


No worries, I corrected that for free.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-02-27 06:53:08 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Ashterothi wrote:
However, several NEW features have been added, and are being added to decrease depth...Skill injectors.
No worries, I corrected that for free.
How do you reason depth is decreased by injectors? I can only think of one aspect where that is the case, but it's the one CCP has stated they want to do away with anyways.
Seraph IX Basarab
Deplorables.
Sedition.
#16 - 2016-02-27 09:07:49 UTC
So...do you have an actual example of this or nah?
Oracle of Machina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2016-02-27 11:42:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Oracle of Machina
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
So...do you have an actual example of this or nah?


Original post, OP put it on Reddit without changing formatting. Here it is, a straight copypasta. Some editing might have been lost, because reddit, and I'm not going to fix it.

Quote:
The original post
Arrow Any "solutions" are there as examples of different design directions.
Right, first of all:
....
No. Actually, NO. I know you guys, most of you read the first bit of a post, assume you know what it is going to be about and hit reply.
The changes that are most recent and show the trend are as follows.
Fozzie SOV

Why did it change?
Null SOV was static, stale and not changing much.
Fozzie's team decided to try and implement guerilla warfare. (Fair enough intention)
What is wrong with it?
Interceptors mining nodes while avoiding Tech 3 Destroyers (T3Ds)
Fleets camping gates bored, can't even shoot at something.
No sacrifice. You can't gimp your fleet pushing damage to grind structures faster.
No tactic involving the structures themselves.
Few T3Ds can go defend a structure and that is it. No need for a CTA (Call to Arms).
What has essentially happened here?
While trying to make SOV less complex, Fozzie's team have made the Null SOV game shallow.
How could it have been done better?
Make a breeding area. - Static coalitions need competition. That won't come from current Null Players so an alliance breeding pool needed to be made. - Low Sec is not sufficient for growing alliances. - Worm Holes are better but have trust problems (which might be solved by Citadels)
Reduce Titan and Super damage drastically.
Cut regular capital damage. What? Why would you do this? Well then if you don't have all that damage then you don't need all the hit points in the structures that make them a boring grind. Obviously.

Okay, so Fozzie SOV had a weird approach that has not worked out. Everything except N3 has remained pretty much the same (and they were being crushed by Goons before Phoebe anyway, the cracks in the dam were there).
High Sec.

What was the problem?
Essentially, victims were served on a silver platter. - Gankers could camp systems all day an night. - Industrials (freighters and such), can't tank in a fleet and can be blown away right under you. No point escorting them. - More and more mechanic solutions, tying player hands, penalising them. - Lack of mechanics that empower defenders against attacks. - War Dec mechanics (gods, this one is tough and I do get it that you put band aids around it and ran away from it)
Essentially, this has happened. <-- (not my creation)
Solutions?
I don't know
One thing that might help is recognising coalitions and fleets in the mechanics From Null Sec, I would love to go and crush some War Dec corps but not all our fleet members can fight because of the mechanics.
Destroyers.
What is the basic concept behind them?
GLASS CANNON!
So what the hell are these Tech 3 and Command Destroyers doing with cruiser type tanks and frigate like signatures / speeds / align times?
There is no fix for this "I wanna blow away all frigates and some cruisers," teenager fantasy types of ships.
Skill Extractors / Injectors

Selling short cuts. "To help the newbies" "Think about how a newbie can't fly a bling toon"
No. Think about veterans flying perfect toons / ships and blowing away newbies.
How this could have been done better?
Speed up new player skill gains until they hit 5M SP and do this only on their first character of their account.

ArrowAttention All of the above boils down to this:
What is your problem dude? They don't affect your game.

Arrow If you want to appeal to "tantrum kids" aka "WoW type players" then don't do it by half measures.
You are fundamentally altering the game and pushing some veterans away.
You are not changing the game drastically enough to keep attention deficient brats.
Repeating that. Losing veterans. & Not keeping the tantrum kids.

How it can be done better?
QuestionIdea Fork the game. IdeaQuestion Don't torture us with this more and more shallow game.
Open up an "Epic" server:
Sell fitted ships so people can just keep on smashing them together.
Let them buy absolutely everything for "micro transactions"
Give them a High Sec that is completely safe, where you can't make a hostile action to other players.
20 High Sec systems
15 NPC Null Sec systems (3 per Pirate faction)
N00bs don't want to travel 40 jumps to go get fights, die and spawn back at the start.

.... and finally?
Give us, the real EVE players back the REAL game of EVE Online and stop watering it down into a mix of booze and mentholated spirits. No sane person wants to drink that.
More ways to play. Less "stuff" that iterates upon what you already have. Less over powered "god mode like" toys.
Seraph IX Basarab
Deplorables.
Sedition.
#18 - 2016-02-27 12:07:38 UTC
So Jenshae is still clueless about the game. Got it. Some corrections running through the chart.


1. T3Ds can't catch ceptors...how about using your ceptor. tossing ships can't go faster than 4k.

2. Not all the structures are out involving sov. Chill.

3. Simply declaring null more shallow doesn't make it so.

4. Yes gankers can camp systems day and night. What do you want?

5. Why would hauling ships be tanky? They're not combat ships. Bring YOUR fleet and escort your haulers with logi. Quit being bad.

6. Did you look at this link? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1GLOJLfLxCg/VhbRZ4DV6rI/AAAAAAAADr8/sDXAPJhl7tk/s1600/HTFU.jpg It argues directly against your point.

7. Who said destroyers are suppose to be glass cannons? They're anti-frig ships.

8. Trust me the 60 mil SP people blow people up that are 5 mil SP just as easy as if they were 80. I mean this argument really shows you don't understand basic aspects of gameplay.
Iain Cariaba
#19 - 2016-02-27 12:56:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
So Jenshae is still clueless about the game. Got it. Some corrections running through the chart.


1. T3Ds can't catch ceptors...how about using your ceptor. tossing ships can't go faster than 4k.

2. Not all the structures are out involving sov. Chill.

3. Simply declaring null more shallow doesn't make it so.

4. Yes gankers can camp systems day and night. What do you want?

5. Why would hauling ships be tanky? They're not combat ships. Bring YOUR fleet and escort your haulers with logi. Quit being bad.

6. Did you look at this link? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1GLOJLfLxCg/VhbRZ4DV6rI/AAAAAAAADr8/sDXAPJhl7tk/s1600/HTFU.jpg It argues directly against your point.

7. Who said destroyers are suppose to be glass cannons? They're anti-frig ships.

8. Trust me the 60 mil SP people blow people up that are 5 mil SP just as easy as if they were 80. I mean this argument really shows you don't understand basic aspects of gameplay.

1. But then they don't have the guaranteed kill like they get with a t3d. Heavens forbid they actually have a chance to lose.
2. But grinding structures is such engaging gameplay, didn't you know?
3. It must be true, I read it on the internet.
4. They want a 100% safe carebear wonderland.
5. But...but...butt...EFFORT!!!!
6. Oh, that's their evidence for further nerfs. All those nerfs didn't create their carebear wonderland, so there needs to be more.
7. Actually, CCP described them as such when they were first introduced, IIRC. Also, CCP knows t3ds are slightly broken, but for once they're taking their time and attempting to fix them properly. There will be tears until they're fixed, and more tears after the fix.
8. We're playing pretty much the only MMORPG out there that doesn't have an experience system. Unfortunately, because of this reason, some people are deluded into thinking SP equates to XP. Doesn't help when CCP talks about people "leveling up their raven." Poor unknowing saps are led further into the delusion that total SP actually means something other than what options you have to play with.
Tosuro
State War Academy
Caldari State
#20 - 2016-02-27 14:23:48 UTC
I always wondered how deep EVE really is...
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