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Ship deceiver kit
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Padegejas
Vite
#1 - 2016-02-25 13:32:32 UTC
This idea came up to me after watching few episodes of new SciFi TV show „Expanse“. There is an episode where a military ship is being refurbished and disguised as an industrial ship, never the less inside it remains the same military ship. And at a certain point they drop away all this outer shell of industrial disguise and fly away as a military ship again...

So my idea is wouldn‘t it be a fun thing if it would be possible to implement in EvE the similar feature: some kind of ship disguise kit which would allow to disguise a military combat vessel as a transport or miner ship… This outer shell might be a one time use and consumed once it is dropped… or it might be partially recyclable… and thus it would have some cost by itself (for example it would need a certain percent of minerals and other materials needed for building the ship one tries to disguise as) and it would not be possible to disguise big battle ship or carrier as a small transport ship or mining frigate – the disguised ship should be smaller or equal size as the one it tries to imitate.

Just imagine: you are jumping into system as a transport ship, or even better as a bulky and slow freighter; you get jumped by a camper or several of them, and then suddenly they realize that it was only a disguise – you are actually piloting battle ready, functional and fitted for PvP battleship, cruiser, of E-War frigate/tackler which caches jumper and retaliates or holds it up just enough long to get the help from your fleet waiting nearby.

Miners whine quite often that it’s too easy to jump them and kill their ships and they have no chance to retaliate right away or hold on long enough to get help. Just imagine now the situation: ganker finds “juicy carebear” sitting in a mining barge at an asteroid belt… jumps in… engages… and … Oh NO!!!!!.... the external shell of the mining barge drops away and a ganker faces combat ready ship which is more than ready to retaliate.

We see a lot of talks how “carebears are avoiding PvP” and how “risk should be rewarding”… OK, let it be rewarding on both sides then Pirate

What do you think? Wouldn’t it be fun to have such a feature? Isn’t it logic. Does it brake game mechanics? Does it cross with the lore?

SALVAGING SANSHA INCURSION WRECKS FOR AN ALPHA

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2 - 2016-02-25 14:25:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Padegejas wrote:
This idea came up to me after watching few episodes of new SciFi TV show „Expanse“. There is an episode where a military ship is being refurbished and disguised as an industrial ship, never the less inside it remains the same military ship. And at a certain point they drop away all this outer shell of industrial disguise and fly away as a military ship again...
It's a good show, I'm enjoying it thoroughly.

Quote:
So my idea is wouldn‘t it be a fun thing if it would be possible to implement in EvE the similar feature: some kind of ship disguise kit which would allow to disguise a military combat vessel as a transport or miner ship… This outer shell might be a one time use and consumed once it is dropped… or it might be partially recyclable… and thus it would have some cost by itself (for example it would need a certain percent of minerals and other materials needed for building the ship one tries to disguise as) and it would not be possible to disguise big battle ship or carrier as a small transport ship or mining frigate – the disguised ship should be smaller or equal size as the one it tries to imitate.

Just imagine: you are jumping into system as a transport ship, or even better as a bulky and slow freighter; you get jumped by a camper or several of them, and then suddenly they realize that it was only a disguise – you are actually piloting battle ready, functional and fitted for PvP battleship, cruiser, of E-War frigate/tackler which caches jumper and retaliates or holds it up just enough long to get the help from your fleet waiting nearby.
Some of the transport and mining ships make surprisingly good PvP ships in the right hands, it involves sacrifice in other areas such as cargo capacity or yield. Every ship fit is a compromise and involves sacrificing innate traits to improve performance in other areas, regardless of whether it's a PvE or PvP fit.

Quote:
Miners whine quite often that it’s too easy to jump them and kill their ships and they have no chance to retaliate right away or hold on long enough to get help. Just imagine now the situation: ganker finds “juicy carebear” sitting in a mining barge at an asteroid belt… jumps in… engages… and … Oh NO!!!!!.... the external shell of the mining barge drops away and a ganker faces combat ready ship which is more than ready to retaliate.
Mining wise there are already 2 combat effective ships that can both mine and deter or kill attackers; they are the Procurer and the Skiff. Hauling wise the Badger and the Nereus are scarily good for shooting other players in the face.

All four of the ships above can not only pack serious tanks, they can kill other players ships quite effectively if fitted correctly.

Quote:
We see a lot of talks how “carebears are avoiding PvP” and how “risk should be rewarding”… OK, let it be rewarding on both sides then Pirate
It's not that they're avoiding PvP, it's their outrage, the death threats and the potty mouths when PvP finds them, that people take umbrage at.

Quote:
What do you think? Wouldn’t it be fun to have such a feature? Isn’t it logic. Does it brake game mechanics? Does it cross with the lore?
It'll be fun, but not in the way that you think; cue hordes of hilarious killmails involving really expensive stuff owned by carebears dying to PvPer's flying ships disguised as something innocuous.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-02-25 15:27:37 UTC
Padegejas wrote:


What do you think? Wouldn’t it be fun to have such a feature? Isn’t it logic. Does it brake game mechanics? Does it cross with the lore?


All ideas like this sound cool and all until you realize the player's defense system against it will be to engage less often because they fear it might not be the fight they are planning for. That is the problem with every single gimmick like that. Oh damn it will be cool once you catch someone with it. Yeah man, super cool, until everyone do it and nobody ever engage because they always expect the damn ship to be something else. People already avoid fight they think they can't win and you expect them to take fights when they can't even be sure if the ship they want to attack is effectively the ship it says it is?
Padegejas
Vite
#4 - 2016-02-26 13:08:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Padegejas
Frostys Virpio wrote:


All ideas like this sound cool and all until you realize the player's defense system against it will be to engage less often because they fear it might not be the fight they are planning for. That is the problem with every single gimmick like that. Oh damn it will be cool once you catch someone with it. Yeah man, super cool, until everyone do it and nobody ever engage because they always expect the damn ship to be something else. People already avoid fight they think they can't win and you expect them to take fights when they can't even be sure if the ship they want to attack is effectively the ship it says it is?


Following your logic there should be no one flying transport ships and no one mining as well because once they undock with cargo or land in an asteroid belt, "it might not be the thing they are planning for" - instead of taking cargo to destination or returning to the base with cargo full of ore they can be blown and robbed... But somehow the haulers are hauling their cargo and miners are mining though they know that they can be killed. People adapt. And the variables that you can't foresee and forecast are making game more exciting and dissipate the boredom which kills interest and eventually makes game dead.

The thing you are actually saying, that discouraging miners from mining is good, discouraging transport ship pilots is fine, but there should never be done anything to discourage those, who want to fly cheapest crap ships fitted with the cheapest modules because they have no patience to get skills for better ships and they will never spend enough to buy better vessels with better fit... You consider it bad that these cowards will be discouraged from engaging fight? Well... then think twice!!! This game is not and will never be driven by those who are afraid to loose their trash. They are not true PvPers, they will never buy, build or risk to loose Titan, Capital Ship, or even Battleship - they are cowards who are afraid to face anyone who can retaliate. And if they'll be discouraged and even leave at all (which will happen anyway as this harsh game environment is not for these weaklings), the game, the player base and even CCP will only win overall.

People avoid fight not because they are afraid to loose something - most avoid it because the fight is not fun, it's not rewarding enough, they do not feel satisfied by the result and reward of that fight. The thing which I suggest would add excitement for both sides involved and thus make it more rewarding, more attractive. Yes, it will be attractive for real PvPers, who are looking for fight, not for a helpless prey.

For the end I'd like to remind, that according to the official data https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/ , ~ 22.4 % of players, who log into the game, do some mining during their game session; 19.2 % run missions, Hell!!!! even industrial features are used by 14.9 %.... and ONLY!!!!!! 13.8 % do something that can be considered PvP, that includes for example when they shoot at least once back to atacker when they are jumped. So we can easily presume that those, who are really actively PvPing, are even fewer... So may be it's time to open eyes and admit, that PvP is far from the main driving factor in this game and it's necessary to make it more attractive... more interesting... more rewarding... and less predictable, stale and boring Blink

SALVAGING SANSHA INCURSION WRECKS FOR AN ALPHA

Padegejas
Vite
#5 - 2016-02-26 13:52:25 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

Quote:
So my idea is wouldn‘t it be a fun thing if it would be possible to implement in EvE the similar feature: some kind of ship disguise kit which would allow to disguise a military combat vessel as a transport or miner ship… This outer shell might be a one time use and consumed once it is dropped… or it might be partially recyclable… and thus it would have some cost by itself (for example it would need a certain percent of minerals and other materials needed for building the ship one tries to disguise as) and it would not be possible to disguise big battle ship or carrier as a small transport ship or mining frigate – the disguised ship should be smaller or equal size as the one it tries to imitate.

Just imagine: you are jumping into system as a transport ship, or even better as a bulky and slow freighter; you get jumped by a camper or several of them, and then suddenly they realize that it was only a disguise – you are actually piloting battle ready, functional and fitted for PvP battleship, cruiser, of E-War frigate/tackler which caches jumper and retaliates or holds it up just enough long to get the help from your fleet waiting nearby.
Some of the transport and mining ships make surprisingly good PvP ships in the right hands, it involves sacrifice in other areas such as cargo capacity or yield. Every ship fit is a compromise and involves sacrificing innate traits to improve performance in other areas, regardless of whether it's a PvE or PvP fit.

Quote:
Miners whine quite often that it’s too easy to jump them and kill their ships and they have no chance to retaliate right away or hold on long enough to get help. Just imagine now the situation: ganker finds “juicy carebear” sitting in a mining barge at an asteroid belt… jumps in… engages… and … Oh NO!!!!!.... the external shell of the mining barge drops away and a ganker faces combat ready ship which is more than ready to retaliate.
Mining wise there are already 2 combat effective ships that can both mine and deter or kill attackers; they are the Procurer and the Skiff. Hauling wise the Badger and the Nereus are scarily good for shooting other players in the face.

All four of the ships above can not only pack serious tanks, they can kill other players ships quite effectively if fitted correctly.

Quote:
We see a lot of talks how “carebears are avoiding PvP” and how “risk should be rewarding”… OK, let it be rewarding on both sides then Pirate
It's not that they're avoiding PvP, it's their outrage, the death threats and the potty mouths when PvP finds them, that people take umbrage at.

Quote:
What do you think? Wouldn’t it be fun to have such a feature? Isn’t it logic. Does it brake game mechanics? Does it cross with the lore?
It'll be fun, but not in the way that you think; cue hordes of hilarious killmails involving really expensive stuff owned by carebears dying to PvPer's flying ships disguised as something innocuous.


Thank you for your opinion. I see your point and you are right, when you say, that often miners and haulers neglect the opportunity to fit more tanking modules to their ships and thus loose the fight before it even starts.

But with all the honesty can you tell, that it's effective, to make a tackler from mining barge or a transport ship? It is possible - I agree... But will it be as fast and agile as E-War frigate? Guess answer is obvious... Yes, you can fit one or two guns on a mining ship and shoot back toward the attacker. But will it kill a real PvP vessel? And by real I mean not a trash frigate or noobship which blows up more from recoil than from retaliation (I've seen those killmails where procurers kill some stupid noobs in frigates or even a fleet of procurers manage to kill some bigger ship)... mining barge is the size of battleship or at least Battlecruiser. Will it kill 1 on 1 properly fitted PvP ship of that class? I don't think so. If those two ships meet, the question is not which one will win - the only question is how long will it last until the mining barge will turn into wreck. And well... it's fair - mining barge is.... mining barge - it should not be battleship. I do not suggest to give industrial ships the tanking capability or firepower of combat vessels - that would be wrong. But I think, that possibility to disguise a battleship as an industrial one is absolutely logic both from real life / lore perspective (industrial tycoons would never let the pirates to rob them unpunished) and from game perspective (new variables and possibility to get a real fight is exiting for real PvPer)

SALVAGING SANSHA INCURSION WRECKS FOR AN ALPHA

Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#6 - 2016-02-26 15:10:17 UTC
Padegejas wrote:
For the end I'd like to remind, that according to the official data https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-economy-update-eve-vegas-2015-report/ , ~ 22.4 % of players, who log into the game, do some mining during their game session; 19.2 % run missions, Hell!!!! even industrial features are used by 14.9 %.... and ONLY!!!!!! 13.8 % do something that can be considered PvP, that includes for example when they shoot at least once back to atacker when they are jumped. So we can easily presume that those, who are really actively PvPing, are even fewer... So may be it's time to open eyes and admit, that PvP is far from the main driving factor in this game and it's necessary to make it more attractive... more interesting... more rewarding... and less predictable, stale and boring Blink

I highly doubt those graphs are what players are doing rather than what accounts or characters are doing. For example I have several accounts with nothing but cyno alts, market alts, industry alts. Those accounts will never PvP or do incursions and many days they will only log on for industry/market meaning they don't warp, fleet, dock, etc. That doesn't mean that I as a player did not PvP that day on one of a few PvP chars (also, when I mine ALL my miners mine, when I PvP or incursions I do so with 1-2 chars at most)
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#7 - 2016-02-26 23:22:55 UTC
Padegejas wrote:
But with all the honesty can you tell, that it's effective, to make a tackler from mining barge or a transport ship? It is possible - I agree... But will it be as fast and agile as E-War frigate? Guess answer is obvious... Yes, you can fit one or two guns on a mining ship and shoot back toward the attacker. But will it kill a real PvP vessel? And by real I mean not a trash frigate or noobship which blows up more from recoil than from retaliation (I've seen those killmails where procurers kill some stupid noobs in frigates or even a fleet of procurers manage to kill some bigger ship)... mining barge is the size of battleship or at least Battlecruiser. Will it kill 1 on 1 properly fitted PvP ship of that class? I don't think so. If those two ships meet, the question is not which one will win - the only question is how long will it last until the mining barge will turn into wreck. And well... it's fair - mining barge is.... mining barge - it should not be battleship.
Some people would say that it is very effective, deception being a powerful tactic; going toe to toe with a PvP battleship and winning can be done in a Nereus if Marlona Sky's antics are anything to judge by, I have no doubt it can be done in a Skiff too.

Quote:
I do not suggest to give industrial ships the tanking capability or firepower of combat vessels - that would be wrong.
Agreed, it would be a terrible idea.

Quote:
But I think, that possibility to disguise a battleship as an industrial one is absolutely logic both from real life / lore perspective (industrial tycoons would never let the pirates to rob them unpunished) and from game perspective (new variables and possibility to get a real fight is exiting for real PvPer)
Combat vessels disguised as merchant vessels has been tried in the real world, while effective, they're also gimped by it; the same should be true in Eve if such a thing was introduced, the deception must come at a cost in other areas.

As for piracy in real life, pirates generally do get away with it without punishment despite the efforts of various navies to curb their activities, some shippers hire armed personnel to accompany their cargo while travelling through areas of pirate activity like the coast of Somalia.

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