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Define "Business Entity" please.
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eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#1 - 2016-02-24 18:53:51 UTC
From the most recent Dev Blog post...

"2. A. Establishing a New Account

<…Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.”

Does this not explicitly and exactly describe entities like iwantisk, eve bet, eohpoker.com, themittani.com and the like? Or is the only distinction here that the business has to earn real currency from their operations?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2 - 2016-02-24 18:58:02 UTC
No, read it again , its quite clear.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-02-24 19:25:15 UTC
This thread has quite the potential to deliver on the e-lawyer level.
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
#4 - 2016-02-24 19:29:07 UTC
eBil Tycoon wrote:

Does this not explicitly and exactly describe entities like iwantisk, eve bet, eohpoker.com, themittani.com and the like? Or is the only distinction here that the business has to earn real currency from their operations?



What do you think, Mr. Fantasmo?

Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .

Bumble's Space Log
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#5 - 2016-02-24 20:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: eBil Tycoon
Bumblefck wrote:
eBil Tycoon wrote:

Does this not explicitly and exactly describe entities like iwantisk, eve bet, eohpoker.com, themittani.com and the like? Or is the only distinction here that the business has to earn real currency from their operations?



What do you think, Mr. Fantasmo?

More specifically, where does that place the entities that do generate income through advertisement revenue? I checked four of those sites and two had non-eve related advertisements on them (i.e. probably not paid for with isk).

So where exactly should the line be drawn? Are some allowed to slide and everyone else has to follow the rules?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6 - 2016-02-24 20:21:12 UTC
eBil Tycoon wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
eBil Tycoon wrote:

Does this not explicitly and exactly describe entities like iwantisk, eve bet, eohpoker.com, themittani.com and the like? Or is the only distinction here that the business has to earn real currency from their operations?



What do you think, Mr. Fantasmo?

More specifically, where does that place the entities that do generate income through advertisement revenue? I checked four of those sites and two had non-eve related advertisements on them (i.e. probably not paid for with isk).

So where exactly should the line be drawn? Are some allowed to slide and everyone else has to follow the rules?

those are entities owned by players , not entities with accounts.

i do love a good auld manufactured outrage
but they explicitly laid this one out in as clear and plebean friendly language as possible,
try harder mate.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#7 - 2016-02-24 20:23:39 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
eBil Tycoon wrote:
Bumblefck wrote:
eBil Tycoon wrote:

Does this not explicitly and exactly describe entities like iwantisk, eve bet, eohpoker.com, themittani.com and the like? Or is the only distinction here that the business has to earn real currency from their operations?



What do you think, Mr. Fantasmo?

More specifically, where does that place the entities that do generate income through advertisement revenue? I checked four of those sites and two had non-eve related advertisements on them (i.e. probably not paid for with isk).

So where exactly should the line be drawn? Are some allowed to slide and everyone else has to follow the rules?

those are entities owned by players , not entities with accounts.

i do love a good auld manufactured outrage
but they explicitly laid this one out in as clear and plebean friendly language as possible,
try harder mate.

Here, let me re-highlight the relevant portion.

Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business

Or is it your suggestion that none of the iwantisk banker alts are working on behalf of iwantisk?
Nana Skalski
Taisaanat Kotei
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#8 - 2016-02-24 20:23:45 UTC
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#9 - 2016-02-24 20:24:15 UTC
The loophole might be the lone citizen getting an EVE account then being struck by the proverbial idea lightbulb, generates a company as a third-party appendage. My understanding and attention span fades at this point.

Imagine, however, some guys forming a corp and televising all their exploits in New Eden as a TV show! (How dull would THAT be?) Fox Networks thinks it's a thrill and gives them an hour a week - EVE Buddies! Or EVEventure! Or some such. They then polka dot the show with high priced ads and make a killing off the artistic efforts of CCP.

Maybe that's the sort of thing it's intended to prevent.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#10 - 2016-02-24 20:26:30 UTC
Business Entity:

Hi my name is Gamer X, i own Gamer X's gold sales. I have 30 accounts paid by my business, i write this off as a business expesnse and they are botting in eve with the proupose of selling isk so i make profit.

or

I am Gamer X, and i higher sweat shop workers to play eve so i cna sell there isk for a profit


Not a Business Entity:

Hi, I am Gamer Y, i'm a huge fan of eve, and made a website where i blog about it. This site cost me personally XXX a month, so i'm going to add some google adsense ads to hep cover this cost. i'm not tyring to make any actual profit, i just want to provide a good blog and keep the site up.

See the difference? Now there is a bunch of grey in between thouse, and you could argue that some eve news site might be business entities. But, if they are not making money off ingame ****, its actually fine.

Really not that hard to understand

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#11 - 2016-02-24 20:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: eBil Tycoon
DaReaper wrote:
Business Entity:

Hi my name is Gamer X, i own Gamer X's gold sales. I have 30 accounts paid by my business, i write this off as a business expesnse and they are botting in eve with the proupose of selling isk so i make profit.

or

I am Gamer X, and i higher sweat shop workers to play eve so i cna sell there isk for a profit


Not a Business Entity:

Hi, I am Gamer Y, i'm a huge fan of eve, and made a website where i blog about it. This site cost me personally XXX a month, so i'm going to add some google adsense ads to hep cover this cost. i'm not tyring to make any actual profit, i just want to provide a good blog and keep the site up.

See the difference? Now there is a bunch of grey in between thouse, and you could argue that some eve news site might be business entities. But, if they are not making money off ingame ****, its actually fine.

Really not that hard to understand

And where would accepting direct cash donations on twitch fall, of those two areas? My twitch account is free every month, there are no incurred upkeep costs there.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#12 - 2016-02-24 20:36:27 UTC
I'm not seeing what King Ralph is, which is usually my signal that I'm really wrong so take the following with a large grain of salt:

The literal read of it would indeed preclude anyone from making money off of EVE other than CCP. Literal is not intent though.

Intent is probably making profit off of the game for the sake of profit and in no way returning value to the game. The ISK miners, etc. would fall into that group. They just take and EVE or CCP gets nothing back.

Other business sorts like Mittani, Markee Dragon, and a whole host of other players that find a way to make real money off of EVE activities, arguably add to the game by bringing in new players and swirling social media to broadcast the game to a wider audience.

So, my final read is that CCP would whip this out as a ban-stick if they find someone doing something they don't like or someone gets caught in the real world doing a scam and brings a bad light on EVE. As long as it doesn't hurt the game or the players, I think they let it slide.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#13 - 2016-02-24 20:37:28 UTC
are you hacking at streamers , monitised 3rd party sites or ccp now im not sure?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#14 - 2016-02-24 20:40:00 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
are you hacking at streamers , monitised 3rd party sites or ccp now im not sure?

I am seeking clarification of the rules as they are stated, as it seems there is a vast grey area that many apparent business non-entities are currently operating within.
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#15 - 2016-02-24 20:46:04 UTC
Pandora Carrollon wrote:
I'm not seeing what King Ralph is, which is usually my signal that I'm really wrong so take the following with a large grain of salt:

The literal read of it would indeed preclude anyone from making money off of EVE other than CCP. Literal is not intent though.

Intent is probably making profit off of the game for the sake of profit and in no way returning value to the game. The ISK miners, etc. would fall into that group. They just take and EVE or CCP gets nothing back.

Other business sorts like Mittani, Markee Dragon, and a whole host of other players that find a way to make real money off of EVE activities, arguably add to the game by bringing in new players and swirling social media to broadcast the game to a wider audience.

So, my final read is that CCP would whip this out as a ban-stick if they find someone doing something they don't like or someone gets caught in the real world doing a scam and brings a bad light on EVE. As long as it doesn't hurt the game or the players, I think they let it slide.


This seems to be the current status quo and it is exactly what I find most troubling. Who makes the determinations of what adds value to the game and what doesn't? If I decide to do what other third parties do and am shut out for it, would my protestations be valid and justified or even listened to, or have they cornered the market in their respective realms and there is no room for any competition?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#16 - 2016-02-24 20:47:02 UTC
... they just clarified exactly that , im not sure what els to tell you without using sock puppets

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
eBil Tycoon
Empty Wallets
#17 - 2016-02-24 20:50:50 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
... they just clarified exactly that , im not sure what els to tell you without using sock puppets

See the post above yours. They obviously get it. You obviously don't.
Grauth Thorner
Vicious Trading Company
#18 - 2016-02-24 20:55:04 UTC
eBil Tycoon wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
are you hacking at streamers , monitised 3rd party sites or ccp now im not sure?

I am seeking clarification of the rules as they are stated, as it seems there is a vast grey area that many apparent business non-entities are currently operating within.

I'm sure CCP would've done something about it if they weren't happy those entities (notice how I didn't state business nor non-business). I'm sure CCP would like to thank you for the heads-up though.

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Ashterothi
The Order of Thelemic Ascension
The Invited
#19 - 2016-02-24 20:55:12 UTC
eBil Tycoon wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
Business Entity:

Hi my name is Gamer X, i own Gamer X's gold sales. I have 30 accounts paid by my business, i write this off as a business expesnse and they are botting in eve with the proupose of selling isk so i make profit.

or

I am Gamer X, and i higher sweat shop workers to play eve so i cna sell there isk for a profit


Not a Business Entity:

Hi, I am Gamer Y, i'm a huge fan of eve, and made a website where i blog about it. This site cost me personally XXX a month, so i'm going to add some google adsense ads to hep cover this cost. i'm not tyring to make any actual profit, i just want to provide a good blog and keep the site up.

See the difference? Now there is a bunch of grey in between thouse, and you could argue that some eve news site might be business entities. But, if they are not making money off ingame ****, its actually fine.

Really not that hard to understand

And where would accepting direct cash donations on twitch fall, of those two areas? My twitch account is free every month, there are no incurred upkeep costs there.


I would strongly advise anyone who wants to try to make real revenue such as streamers, book writers, machinima makers, etc contact CCP directly with their intentions, preferably long before you are profitable, or even popular.

I talk with CCP all the time, they are often totally cool great people to work with. I know some people have had negative history, but they have a lot of support for content creators who are willing to work with them.

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DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#20 - 2016-02-24 20:59:00 UTC
yea file a petiton or email there marketing guy (his e-mail was on the eve website)

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
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