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Change/remove Typhoon FI's gun bonus
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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1 - 2016-02-17 16:00:46 UTC
With the buff to the T1 tempest having the same RoF as the typhoon FI (and 25% more damage), and the tempest fleet having a RoF and damage bonus, the typhoon FI's gun bonus is kinda pointless.

If you want dual neuts and want to use projectiles, use either the t1 tempest, or fleet tempest. If you want to fit artillery, again use the tempest or tempest fleet. The phoon doesn't have the grid for artillery and tank anyway (its got the lowest grid between them all, even t1 pest has more grid).

Here is a quick comparison with the same guns/ammo between the ships: http://imgur.com/OeRm24d

Don't get me wrong, I do like the split weapon bonuses when they work and there is a niche` for it. For example the scyfi and the minmatar cruiser line-up doesn't have a good missile ship. So it fills that role well, but can also be fit with a/c's and brawl.
The typhoon fleet's gun bonus doesn't have that same niche, that projectile niche is already done better by the T1 pest and pest FI.

So would it be unreasonable to either make the Typhoon Fleet a dedicated missile ship, or significantly buff the gun bonus?
I personally would like to see it become a fully fleshed out missile ship. Possibly keeping the application bonus from the t1 phoon. Or going the dps powerhouse route and changing it to 5% missile damage and 5% missile RoF.

Looking at minmatar fleet ships, they're also trending towards application:
Firetail: 10% tracking bonus per level
Stabber FI: 10% tracking bonus per level
Hurricane FI: 10% tracking bonus per level

So either the pest FI will get a 10% tracking bonus, or the phoon could keep the 5% application bonus for cruise/torps from the t1 phoon (or both, as the tempest FI could use some love too).

Am i missing some unused niche/use for the gun bonus on the fleet phoon? It just seems outperformed in almost every way by the T1 pest and Fleet pest.

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Barrett Fruitcake
Doomheim
#2 - 2016-02-17 19:57:32 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Am i missing some unused niche/use for the gun bonus on the fleet phoon? It just seems outperformed in almost every way by the T1 pest and Fleet pest.


The Tempest was a black sheep in the Minnie lineup for far too many years, it recently got buffed a bit to make up for that.

I don't think a damage creep, or removing the fleet typhoon split weapon system is the best solution in this case.

You may just have to accept that while each ship gets its time in the sun, it also gets its time in the shade, just like the races. Every few years a rebalance seems to significantly alter the balance of what is the best racial lineup.

But, it seem the most recent balances are trying to get away from that.

It may be that the Fleet Phoon could get a slight adjustment, I just don't think giving it a better DPS bonus or making it a missile boat are the right things to do.

Maybe give it a better speed, smaller sig, or a prop mod bonus, since speed and speed tanking is a good Minnie trait.

There could be other ideas as well that won't create issues with the recent Pest buff or make it more of a Caldari boat.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#3 - 2016-02-17 20:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Barrett Fruitcake wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:

Am i missing some unused niche/use for the gun bonus on the fleet phoon? It just seems outperformed in almost every way by the T1 pest and Fleet pest.

It may be that the Fleet Phoon could get a slight adjustment, I just don't think giving it a better DPS bonus or making it a missile boat are the right things to do.

Maybe give it a better speed, smaller sig, or a prop mod bonus, since speed and speed tanking is a good Minnie trait.

There could be other ideas as well that won't create issues with the recent Pest buff or make it more of a Caldari boat.




Its already a missile boat, it is very rarely (if at all) used with projectiles. In the Alliance Tournament its used with RHML as it costs less points than a bhargest. Its used in PvP with RHML because those will apply best and its damage bonus favors RHML as it increases damage per magazine. In PVE most people will fit cruise missiles to it, since they can just fill the mids with TP's or missile computers to offset the application (not to mention NPCs have large sigs and move slowly to begin with).

Its already faster than the pest FI and t1 pest. People already use it to kite with RHML. Increasing speed more would just make it a baby bharg with an unused gun bonus.

Dropping sig, while interesting, is only useful if you intend to sig tank other battleships, and we both know battleship fights outside of fleets is almost non-existant. Which again, doesn't change the fact no one will put guns on it to brawl another BS, because then you have tracking to deal with.

Whats wrong with giving it the application bonus from T1 phoon? It would at least give some incentive to put torps/cruise missiles on it instead of going straight to RHML.

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Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#4 - 2016-02-18 04:52:39 UTC
Many people were upset when the split bonuses were removed from the Typhoon hull during the rebalancing. The fleet issue retains the split bonus (in a much more useful manner) than the old Typhoon. Part of the reason for keeping the split bonus and for fitting projectiles is that it is one of the ships where you can never quite be sure what it is equipped with. Sure, most times it will have RHMLs but if that is what you go in expecting and are ready to counter, autocannons can be a nasty surprise.
Uriam Khanid
New Machinarium Corporation
#5 - 2016-02-18 08:30:52 UTC
AC/artillery Fleet Typhoon was used before Tempest buff. Now Tempest almost the best projective platform, thank to CCP.
I am personally do not want to see split bonus removed, but it very difficult to find a solution to projective Fleet Typhoon (because ... Tempest).
Big smile something like 10% RoFBig smile
FT Cold
FT Cold Corporation
#6 - 2016-02-18 21:28:52 UTC
I agree with stitch on this one. SFI pulls it off well, but it feels out of place on the Typhoon FI. Maybe I'd feel differently if faction battleships weren't so freaking expensive and I got to use the thing more than once in a blue moon.
Ilah Gruhbarn
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#7 - 2016-02-19 11:22:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ilah Gruhbarn
Gun fitted Fleet typhoon is completely underused and overshadowed by missile side of ship.

Removing bonus (not hardpoints)completely for missile or drone bonus would be a way to go so tempest fleet can find its space in gun lineup currently it is weaker than its t1 counterpart.

I'd rather go for something like drone mwd speed bonus then just copy paste t1 typhoon with extra slot for diversity sake.

Would give fleet version additional 25mb drone hangar increase.

Keeping / boosting gun side only mess with pest,fleet pest,maelstrom I can live without 4th gunship in minmatar lineup and go for proper missile drone boat instead.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#8 - 2016-02-19 19:30:36 UTC
Corvald Tyrska wrote:
Many people were upset when the split bonuses were removed from the Typhoon hull during the rebalancing. The fleet issue retains the split bonus (in a much more useful manner) than the old Typhoon. Part of the reason for keeping the split bonus and for fitting projectiles is that it is one of the ships where you can never quite be sure what it is equipped with. Sure, most times it will have RHMLs but if that is what you go in expecting and are ready to counter, autocannons can be a nasty surprise.


The "unsuspecting fit" doesn't really work when you can use "look-at" and see what they have fitted. If you think they have RHML and then find out they have autocannons ONLY after you've tackled them, then they're just not a very observant person. Doesn't make the ship edgy, or ninja like. No one is going to spend 380-500m on a ship that can be outperformed by a 180-200m T1 ship.

The only thing the fleet phoon has over a pest is drone bandwidth, which is good and all, but Drones can die, and then you're left with identical slot layout, but less damage than a fleet tempest. If i had to choose between 2 weapon systems, one that has tracking, the other that doesn't (in a battleship, who's turrets track horrendously), i'm always going to choose the non tracking system, at least in PvP. To add on to that, if i'm going to choose a turret BS to use, i'm going to go with the cheaper and identical slot layout of the tempest FI that does more damage and has the same utility (minus drone bay/bandwidth). Or, more damage and 1 less low with the t1 pest.


IIah Gruhbarn wrote:
Gun fitted Fleet typhoon is completely underused and overshadowed by missile side of ship.

Removing bonus (not hardpoints)completely for missile or drone bonus would be a way to go so tempest fleet can find its space in gun lineup currently it is weaker than its t1 counterpart.

I'd rather go for something like drone mwd speed bonus then just copy paste t1 typhoon with extra slot for diversity sake.

Would give fleet version additional 25mb drone hangar increase.

Keeping / boosting gun side only mess with pest,fleet pest,maelstrom I can live without 4th gunship in minmatar lineup and go for proper missile drone boat instead.


Minmatar aren't the drone race though. Gal/amarr are the ones who dabble in drones, and minmatar don't need a 3rd weapon system to train into just for 1 ship. Not to mention we're discussing the Typhoon Fleet issue, not the tempest fleet issue.

Tempest fleet still has a role as tanky artillery platform for fleet doctrines. It has a better tank than t1 tempest using the same setup.

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2016-02-19 19:40:41 UTC
Don't forget that there is a small advantage in putting bonused weapons in your utility highs.

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Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#10 - 2016-02-19 20:03:31 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Don't forget that there is a small advantage in putting bonused weapons in your utility highs.


Not in PvP, unless you're just going max dps with 10 other guys for tackle.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Ilah Gruhbarn
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#11 - 2016-02-19 22:33:04 UTC
Quote:
Minmatar aren't the drone race though. Gal/amarr are the ones who dabble in drones, and minmatar don't need a 3rd weapon system to train into just for 1 ship. Not to mention we're discussing the Typhoon Fleet issue, not the tempest fleet issue.

Tempest fleet still has a role as tanky artillery platform for fleet doctrines. It has a better tank than t1 tempest using the same setup.


If changes are to go thru there would be no 3 weapon systems but rather 2 and Minmatar ships are not of a kind that you can choose not to train drones you must otherwise you will be failure both in PVE and PVP bar few ships as all races have non drone ships.

Amarr ships have lasers,missile,and drone bonuses but that ok because reasons right?

Same goes for Caldari/Gallente via pirate variations they too gain access to hybrid,missile,drones...it is talking point really to state otherwise.

Main Gallente no need to say anything there they have drone writings all over them.

So what are we talking here really.

I just thought that as fastest of fleet variants across races it would be good synergy to have fast drones to boot no drama no gall amarr are drones bullcrap just ...something that feels right.

I feel that is more balanced than give already a dps monster ship application bonus to main weapon system.it might be just me tho.

On a point of Tempest fi all faction variations got extra slot / tank to their t1 counterpart heaving a more tanky role for whatever.

They just did not get shafted to cost ~300mil more for spare plate/extender and do less dps and alpha in the process and by buffing Typhoon Fleet gun bonus it would again step on that ship roll because it have only one .....mediocre gun ship.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#12 - 2016-02-19 23:11:02 UTC
Ilah Gruhbarn wrote:
Quote:
Minmatar aren't the drone race though. Gal/amarr are the ones who dabble in drones, and minmatar don't need a 3rd weapon system to train into just for 1 ship. Not to mention we're discussing the Typhoon Fleet issue, not the tempest fleet issue.

Tempest fleet still has a role as tanky artillery platform for fleet doctrines. It has a better tank than t1 tempest using the same setup.


If changes are to go thru there would be no 3 weapon systems but rather 2 and Minmatar ships are not of a kind that you can choose not to train drones you must otherwise you will be failure both in PVE and PVP bar few ships as all races have non drone ships.

Amarr ships have lasers,missile,and drone bonuses but that ok because reasons right?

Same goes for Caldari/Gallente via pirate variations they too gain access to hybrid,missile,drones...it is talking point really to state otherwise.

Main Gallente no need to say anything there they have drone writings all over them.

So what are we talking here really.

I just thought that as fastest of fleet variants across races it would be good synergy to have fast drones to boot no drama no gall amarr are drones bullcrap just ...something that feels right.

I feel that is more balanced than give already a dps monster ship application bonus to main weapon system.it might be just me tho.

On a point of Tempest fi all faction variations got extra slot / tank to their t1 counterpart heaving a more tanky role for whatever.

They just did not get shafted to cost ~300mil more for spare plate/extender and do less dps and alpha in the process and by buffing Typhoon Fleet gun bonus it would again step on that ship roll because it have only one .....mediocre gun ship.


Pirate factions are not racial factions, they are a blending and do not correlate to either faction. Example: Guristas.

There are no caldari drone ships. Guristas get a drone bonus from their gallente faction, and a missile bonus from their caldari faction.

Amarr just recently had drones added to their faction, starting with the geddon/dragoon. Mostly on ships that have flexible hardpoints with neut bonuses. They are unique in the fact they have 3 weapons to train into. That doesn't mean we should just shoe horn drones into minmatar "for reasons". They have also been somewhat consistent with med/large ships having missile bonuses, and small ships have missile hardpoints. Minmatar do not have any ships bonused with drones. Your proposal to the typhoon FI would be the only ship they have that is bonused to drones. Why do i need to train a 3rd weapon system for 1 ship?

Minmatar have projectiles and missiles. Adding in drones would indeed make it a third. Minmatar ships do not have bonuses to drones, so yes, i have trained small/med drones to T2, but not large because their ships are not bonused heavily towards them. I agree, having drones at T2 is great, but i'm not concerned with getting heavies or sentries to T2 at this point. To take full advantage a drone bonused battleship would require me to get heavies to T2.

To be honest, a drone velocity bonus doesn't really make sense with the hull. Yes its a fast battleship, but I would rather my missiles hit well, than my drones being able to speed around and then die when they're primaried. Leaving me with a worthless bonus when all my drones are dead (keep in mind, you're not recommending a drone HP bonus either, so i have weak drones to boot).

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Ilah Gruhbarn
Minmatar Inner Space Conglomerate
#13 - 2016-02-19 23:53:11 UTC
Right what we both just said...


Good luck with thread I can't stand behind outright buff to already excellent ship but hey if I find it like that tomorrow it's party time.
KitCat 01
Based And Redpilled.
Punishing Gray Raven
#14 - 2016-02-20 01:45:19 UTC
It is true that basically nobody fits ACs on a phoon fleet. But the tempest fleet is so crapy that I would actually consider the phoon fleet over the pest fleet for ACs because the phoonFI is way more agile and just faster than all the other matar BS.
At first sight the tempest fleet looks way better than the phoon fleet for artillerie because of it's longer targeting range and raw damage bonus which gives it a better alpha strike. But for more power, just use a T1 Tempest.
The typhoon fleet issue is one of the best quality/price ratio in terms of battleships for small gang and I am happy with it. Eventually someone will figure out a way to use it with ACs. it doesn't feel like any buff is needed. if there was no RHML, I would use it with ACs over the other battleships.

The one I actually don't see a point in using is the tempest fleet issue. This ship needs a tracking bonus or some buff to be undockable. right now the T1 tempest cost half the price for a better punch.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#15 - 2016-02-20 02:32:44 UTC
KitCat 01 wrote:
It is true that basically nobody fits ACs on a phoon fleet. But the tempest fleet is so crapy that I would actually consider the phoon fleet over the pest fleet for ACs because the phoonFI is way more agile and just faster than all the other matar BS.
At first sight the tempest fleet looks way better than the phoon fleet for artillerie because of it's longer targeting range and raw damage bonus which gives it a better alpha strike. But for more power, just use a T1 Tempest.
The typhoon fleet issue is one of the best quality/price ratio in terms of battleships for small gang and I am happy with it. Eventually someone will figure out a way to use it with ACs. it doesn't feel like any buff is needed. if there was no RHML, I would use it with ACs over the other battleships.

The one I actually don't see a point in using is the tempest fleet issue. This ship needs a tracking bonus or some buff to be undockable. right now the T1 tempest cost half the price for a better punch.


The fleet pest also has an extra low over the T1 pest. Which is why its favored in a fleet role. Not to mention has a huge amount of base EHP over the T1 pest. 150-200k EHP fleet pest isn't too hard to pull off with 1400's. Fleet phoon can't even fit 1400's with a naked fit.

So since you mentioned speed being a big bonus to a/c's on the fleet phoon. Its not much faster than the fleet pest tbh, only about 100m/s. Infact the fleet pest does a/c kiting better than the fleet phoon.

Take a look at these 2 fits i tried to make identical. Basic cookie cutter kite tempest.

http://imgur.com/mBNDFyq

The phoon has to use a large ancil current router to use 800mm a/c's, 1 ancil rep, MWD and cap booster. Doesn't have the grid to make good use of utility highs. Even RHML won't fit. I'll be damned if i'm going to spend 100m+ on a t2 ancil rig just to kite with a/c's on a ship that still can't outperform a t1 pest, or fleet pest. I'll happily put RHML on it and fit a dual rep active tank with MJD though.

The ship fitting is even a good indication it should be a missile ship. Look at the CPU differences between the fleet pest (and t1) compared to the fleet phoon. Missiles/BCU's use way more CPU than autocannons, but considerably less PG.

IF you even want to consider a/c's to be viable on this ship, it needs at least 3k more PG to even be a contender to T1/Fleet pest.

The only thing the fleet phoon has that would push it over the fleet pest (in dps) is drone bay. But i really just don't find kiting and using unbonused heavy drones to be that great.

Fleet pest though only needs a cheap 1% PG implant to make everything fit, and it adds dual heavy neuts and an MJD.

Maybe i'm overlooking something, but literally the fleet phoon only has a bigger drone bay and slightly more speed than the T1/fleet pest. Everything else the pest's will do better, cheaper.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

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Wimzy Chent-Shi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-03-08 14:48:19 UTC
Ship is a wild card in every engagement.... I sarcastically love that there are only two armor tanked missile BSs in the game both of which meant for random stuff. But that's what you get for being a minnie. It fares comparably well in it's just stupidly universal and the fitting is always tight.
My personal favourite is FoF cruise phoon to solo missions at 300 km range without locking.

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