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How much to Mastery 5 on ship of your choice?
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Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2016-02-17 16:19:52 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Not sure how much you've played or how many breaks you've taken but you seem to be amazingly ignorant about some really important basics in this game.


It is merely working out some details on costs. There have been a lot of claims on the forum that skill trading means people will just buy their way to V in everything. I just wanted to see how much that'd cost.

But you know what? You're quite petty and low to insult me over just showing some math. You might want to think about how such a rude response provides little benefit to anyone. And makes you look bad. And contributes to the disaster area this forum generally is... I'm not making a statement. I'm showing some research. Excoriating me shows your lack of character.

Quote:
Nobody will ever be able to buy enough SP to make that happen or make them aware of it happening.


I'm glad we agree.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2016-02-17 16:21:35 UTC
I forgot to account for buying the skills. Not sure that's really going to add a lot...
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2016-02-17 16:35:46 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
WTF is this mastery?!


Show info on a ship. Look for the Mastery tab.

It's really just a premise for the problem. Several have pointed out that it's not an ideal build. True enough I suppose... but for the exercise it is a simple enough metric, standard and reasonable.

The most compelling observation so far is the idea that you could perhaps go to Mastery III in many ships for a smaller amount of real money. This wouldn't be pay to win, but you could unlock a lot of the game quickly.

It's 30M to Mastery V. It's 1M to Mastery III.

28 plex is US$489.86. At 1.2B per plex, that's 33.6B isk. About 42-48 injectors? That's 18.2M sp.

What can you skill into for 18.2M sp?
Sneaky Little Bastard
Doomheim
#24 - 2016-02-17 16:42:11 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:

What can you skill into for 18.2M sp?


Another game I guess :)
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#25 - 2016-02-17 18:16:39 UTC
Part of the problem this highlights is that the Mastery does not necessarily equal reality of fits. For example, the damage shield comp skills are of little value. They only apply to passive shield resist mods. Generally on a merlin, you would not waste a slot for such a mod.

On the other hand, you list no rig skills. Even on a frig, people fit rigs and the skill's reduction to rig penalty can be a big help.

This is not to say the math exercise is bad. It is a great example of the cost to achieve a CCP defined metric. However it also shows how having the skills alone on your character isn't enough to know what is going on.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2016-02-17 20:23:19 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
This is not to say the math exercise is bad. It is a great example of the cost to achieve a CCP defined metric.


Don't like the list? Propose another. Will it really be different in total skill points? By how much?

Was it valid to pick a Merlin? I don't even fly them. It just seems a common popular ship. I could have picked a Dominix. Or a Drake. It's just an example to see how much real money you'd need to unlock a ship...

Quote:
However it also shows how having the skills alone on your character isn't enough to know what is going on.


Agreed. This doesn't make you a good pilot.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#27 - 2016-02-17 20:53:18 UTC
If nothing else, skill injection is at least good for entertaining threads Lol.

Remove standings and insurance.
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#28 - 2016-02-17 22:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Chopper Rollins
Fa Xian wrote:
But you know what? You're quite petty and low to insult me over just showing some math. You might want to think about how such a rude response provides little benefit to anyone. And makes you look bad. And contributes to the disaster area this forum generally is... I'm not making a statement. I'm showing some research. Excoriating me shows your lack of character.


The pointless math you're doing shows your ignorance of basics i described in my post. If you think ignorance being pointed out is insulting you're in the wrong forum to be waving it around so wildly.
I swear this is getting like an Infinity Ziona thread.

Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
Iria Ahrens
Space Perverts and Forum Pirates
#29 - 2016-02-18 03:04:32 UTC
I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.

My choice of pronouns is based on your avatar. Even if I know what is behind the avatar.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#30 - 2016-02-18 03:52:39 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.



yeah, +1 to this. i don't even have mastery level 1 on my oneiros even if that's one of the top 5 ships i fly because training for remote hull repairer is not necessary for me now.

i also don't shield tank so my shield skills are low. and afaik, there are no ship that can lock more than 10 targets (without using the signal amplifier and auto targeting mods) so training advanced target managment to 5 is a waste.

Just Add Water
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#31 - 2016-02-18 04:34:32 UTC
There are many mastery skills that don't necessarily apply to some of the fits I use, like my shield Astero/Stratios. I got lots of ships to mastery II is that good?

Though in my early career I stared a lot at that ship tree. It is a nice layout Big smile

@lunettelulu7
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#32 - 2016-02-18 04:37:44 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.



yeah, +1 to this. i don't even have mastery level 1 on my oneiros even if that's one of the top 5 ships i fly because training for remote hull repairer is not necessary for me now.

i also don't shield tank so my shield skills are low. and afaik, there are no ship that can lock more than 10 targets (without using the signal amplifier and auto targeting mods) so training advanced target managment to 5 is a waste.


Marauder can lock 13 targets when bastion is active

but as you and other said, most skill are pointless to get 5 since I probably will never use it
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#33 - 2016-02-18 05:55:21 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I don't know that I have mastery V on anything. Most of the masterys have some requirement that is of zero utility and so it is a waste to train. Advanced Target Management V for example. Or a ship might require all shield skills at V because one "could" shield tank a ship, I never shield tank.



yeah, +1 to this. i don't even have mastery level 1 on my oneiros even if that's one of the top 5 ships i fly because training for remote hull repairer is not necessary for me now.

i also don't shield tank so my shield skills are low. and afaik, there are no ship that can lock more than 10 targets (without using the signal amplifier and auto targeting mods) so training advanced target managment to 5 is a waste.


Marauder can lock 13 targets when bastion is active

but as you and other said, most skill are pointless to get 5 since I probably will never use it


marauders, TIL, thanks. i read it was mostly for pve so i didn't train for them, i went blops instead, well still training atm. Smile

Just Add Water
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#34 - 2016-02-18 06:27:08 UTC
Fa Xian wrote:


Was it valid to pick a Merlin? I don't even fly them. It just seems a common popular ship. I could have picked a Dominix. Or a Drake. It's just an example to see how much real money you'd need to unlock a ship...


Why would you need mastery V to unlock a ship?
I go by what I need in order to fit a ship for its purpose, and (IMHO) usually Mastery II or III will cover the vast majority of use cases.
Fa Xian
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-02-18 22:29:46 UTC
Iria Ahrens wrote:
I don't know that I have mastery V on anything.


Me either.

It's not the point. The point was to pick some arbitrary pile of skills and look at the cost in dollars. This set is just an easily accessible set everyone can see in the game. Don't like it? Pick a different set.
Memphis Baas
#36 - 2016-02-19 12:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
As it's been said, Mastery 5 is not necessary, esp. considering that the skill certifications are skewed towards over-training and may contain useless skills. Basically, the certs have been done a while ago (procedurally generated, too), and CCP hasn't kept up with the player meta-game (how we currently fit ships).

A more sensible plan is to have the ship and support skills at 4, with select skills (Energy, Shield Management, various Armor skills, etc.) at 5, and then worry about Tech 2 weapon prerequisite skills. Per ship that can take 2-6 months, depending on whether you're talking about frigate vs. battleship.

If you want to do it "per everything" (pick 2 races so you have some choices, and train all their ships), it's about 60 million skillpoints, 3 years. Takes 1 year to get ALL skills to 4 across the board, another year for quite a few skills to 5 because they are prerequisites or really good, and finally Tech 2 weapons and Tech 2 ships.

Alternately, with the reduced prerequisites for capital ships and their weapons, it takes about 3 years / 60 million skillpoints to get into caps and have all the relevant capital skills at 5. People train these long skills to 5 because the ships are expensive and thus demand every single 5% that you can squeeze out of the skills. Plan starts similarly to the above, with support skills at 4-5, then the capital ships and relevant skills take a while.

These numbers are from personal experience doing it (I like to give up my mains and start alts periodically).

So, compared to this "most skills at 4" plan, a newbie can get support skills to 3 and frigates, cruisers, battlecruisers to 3-4 with T1 weapons in about 3 months. This gives them access to Tech 2 modules, but they're restricted to Tech 1 weapons and ships, so that puts them about 20% less firepower than a 60m SP veteran fitting similar T1 ships with T1 weapons. Tech 2 weapons and ammo are a big boost, so vs. a T2 weapons veteran they're probably 50% underpowered. Of course, there's no way to win 1 vs. 1 at 50%, but bring a couple friends and make it 3 vs. 1 and it's almost guaranteed.

This is one thing that's good about this game: the newbie has a chance, however small. Other MMO's, WoW, SWTOR, etc., have built-in accuracy penalties: if you're more than 5 levels below the enemy, you can't even hit them, nothing lands. High level Alliance entering Horde capital city, they can AoE newbies with impunity and not even get hit, despite the fact that they're probably fighting 100+ players at the same time.

In EVE, you can have a small fleet of 2-weeks-old frigates and kick veteran ass.
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